HH, your wife is displaying a freeloader mentality:


More here.

None of us are mind-readers. You can't automatically know what her needs are, and vice versa.

You asked about the right books for you to be reading - HH, let me ask, has your WW read SAA? Does she understand what is entailed in just compensation? I know you say you don't want to bring up things that you've already discussed, but has everything been discussed to your satisfaction? A romantic and fulfilling marriage can be created - it doesn't just "happen" by accident - but both spouses must buy in to the program. The truly repentant wayward spouse wanting to earn that "F" must take the load of recovery. Her responsibility is to heal you and to offer you just compensation for her adultery. Part of JC is fulfilling your ENs...and that entails LEARNING exactly WHAT your ENs are, so that she can successfully fulfill them. Either she wants to be married to you or not. She can't remain a freeloader or even a renter for marriage to be truly fulfilling.

Let me address something you said several days ago:

You are not second rate. You are more than enough. My BH said a lot of the same things to me - he gave everything he knew to give to his family: he worked, he was a provider, he gave up many (pretty much all) of his outside interests in order to support his wife and children. And I repaid him how? Not by telling him that I appreciated what he did for us, not by having an O&H conversation about meeting each others' most important ENs, but by giving my love and body to another man. Let me tell you something: It was not about my BH. My infidelity was ALL ABOUT ME. My husband was more than enough. He was not - and IS not - second rate. Neither are you. Your WW's adultery was ALL ABOUT HER. She can sit here now and try to deflect, and try to make it about you, and spout nonsense about this and that from the marriage, but the truth is, problems in marriage - resulting from LB's and unmet EN's - happen. Our responsibility is to communicate to each other when those things happen - not throw our hands up and give up on our marriage, selfishly seeking fulfillment outside of our marital relationship.

Why would she quit? Because she got selfish. She got lazy.

Why won't she recommit? Because she is still selfish and lazy.

Well said, wulffpack girl, well said. And will help many BS's here. Thank you

Wow, thank you for your post WPG. Your words made me cry a little honestly. I wish my wife felt that way right now. She's progressing, I see it in her, I hear it in her voice, I see it in the way she even looks at me. It's so small, and so subtle right now, but it's changing. I recognize it. But I've just been on emotional life support the past week, grasping for air. I think once my test ended I had this huge let down emotionally. Like I've been giving, and giving and giving and I just have had little left in the tank.

I keep trying to communicate to her that touch is what I need, a big part of that IS SF for me. It always has been. But I can't even get a hug from her right now, so to expect SF is just asinine on my part, and quite frankly, I don't want to force the issue either, especially after Markos' remarks on the matter. But the touch, affectionate touches would do wonders for me right now. It'd help me feel safe, and secure and loved.

Something she said last night that stood out was that she always wanted that emotional support from me, when she was relating the concrete example that happened AFTER the affair. That's something entirely different than what's been said the past 4 months. The "I don't think I've ever loved you" she's maintained for you which has evolved down to I have philos love, to eros love, now it's I have always wanted it from you. That made me feel good, even though the conversation didn't end great. She seemed happy again this morning and last night she asked me to name 5 things that I consider to be 'romantic' that would just happen, that aren't planned, that happen spontaneously on a daily basis. (I'm very analytical and deliberate, especially on how I show love, I plan things out and think she'll enjoy something, and I think I've lost LB$ because it's 'not' natural).

Thanks for the 'freeloader/renter/buyer' example. That helped a LOT to help me understand. I mean, I've not been perfect. I know she HAS expressed needs in the past and i sometimes ignored them, minimized them or simply just didn't understand what those needs were or the magnitude of those needs. Also, it's good to for me to understand that needs change as time passes. I realize my own needs have changed and changed dramatically en lieu of these events.

I said to her last night that I WANT to meet her needs, but that I don't always know what to do or what to say to meet those needs. That I am willing to be taught what those needs are, and that just set her off to where she rolled over in bed and ended the conversation and we went to bed for the night. I just laid there and wondered? What? What did I do/not do? WHat did I say/not say? I'm sure she was thinking that the POSOM would have said or done what she needed right there. Like she was giving me a chance to redeem myself and I failed. That's what it felt like to me at least.

No she hasn't read SAA, or any 'MARRIAGE' book...yet. She's focusing on the New Testament and another book right now. She doesn't have a lot of time to read much right now due to the incredibly time-consuming nature of our twins, now family reunions, etc. When I go off to my military training, I'm assuming she'll find more time to read some books then. I've invited her to read SAA and HNHN with me. But to no avail...yet.

Here's your problem.

You are hedging your bets on trying to cold read a still-foggy wayward.


You can't really talk her into much right now, and doing so... well, trying to talk her out of the fog just pushes her deeper into it.


Why?


Because even though she is foggy, even though there is no way under the sun she is right, trying to talk her out of her fog is trying to straighten her out. It is a disrespectful judgement.

Your best bet is to rise up with confidence, and ACT according the the MB plan. The trick is to build your Love Bank balance, and THEN invite her on board.

Don't inflate your hope, it makes the rollercoaster that much worse when she does things to drop the floor.


You are essentially doing a Plan A to break her fog, and part of that is having NO expectations.


That's the mantra for now.


Set a time limit, stand tall and strong, and concentrate on meeting her needs and being a pleasant companion.

There's nothing here that I disagree with. I think you're correct. However, the one point I wish to harp on that stands out is the 'EXPECT NOTHING'. I don't dig that at all. I was given wise counsel to not let these events lower the standards for my marriage. What that means to me is to work towards and expect a fulfilling marriage. I understand my wife is not willing(emotionally), and in many instances incapable(psychologically) to meet my needs but this isnt an excuse to lower the standards for my marriage. My expectations for my marriage should remain at a realistic and acceptable level. Lowering those expectations doesn't do anyone, any good in our commitmentto one another. To me marriage is the ultimate buddy system. When one falls, the other is there to pick the fallen spouse up and vice versa. She's absolutely devastated me, but I'm not going to let that deter me away from my promises and my commitments to her and to God. If after all that I do and all that I've gone through she determines it's not enough, then I will hold my head up high knowing I did all that I knew how to do to preserve my family and to preserve a normal, healthy relationship between my wife and I for our children to emulate in the future. I hope that's enough, it should be enough, but ultimately my wife has that choice to determine whether that really is enough, for her.

I think the 'expect nothing in return' applies to Plan A. But you should not be in Plan A the entire length of your M. You should be in Plan A for as long as you can afford to without compromising yourself, and then go to Plan B if your WW is not interested in doing what it takes to recover your M, which includes work on HER part. I don't think anyone is suggesting that you do what you are doing without expecting anything in return for the rest of your M. That is not the MB way.

You are absolutely right that you should not lower the standards for your M. You should expect there to be, at some point, a turnaround in your WW where she is fully committed to recovery, including meeting YOUR needs. I guess the question is how long are you planning to give her? I haven't followed your thread in its entirety, but it seems to me you have already given her a REALLY LONG TIME. But I know Dr H does state that a man should Plan A 6-24 months or something like that. Frankly, I would never be able to last that long without something in return.

Great distinction and clarification. Yes i agree with wholeheartedly.

Hi HH

Have you tried sleeping close to your wife after she dozes off, holding her hand or whispering an ILU to her while she is asleep? If she wakes to find you close to her or wakes to a soft voice she may be receptive to your touch. Just thinking...

Ok - you do understand that her actions point to her being in a state of withdrawal, right?

Are you familiar with the state of withdrawal? She doesn't really have an interest in meeting your needs, and it is difficult for you to meet hers.

She's also foggy and in withdrawal from her AP.


So, what no expectations means at this point, is not particularly expecting her to be meeting your needs enthusiastically, nor expecting her to be particularly receptive.


Also; that part about setting a timeline? That means that you aren't going to accept those conditions indefinitely. It means that you are going to model what you are going to do in the marriage moving forward. It's not a trick. You are raising the bar both in what you expect and in what you will provide as a husband.

Just curious, this question is only for FWW's or current WW's trying to earn their "F".

I am curious if any of you developed an aversion to your husband to where you the very though of touching your husband was simply too uncomfortable to do. Be it holding hands, hugging, kissing and a full blown sex aversion. Affection and intimacy were just not possible for you?

If so how did you overcome it? How long did it take? What types of things happened along the way to promote intimacy between you and your husband? Did it just happen over time? Or was it an active process?

Thanks, just curious to understand the thoughts and psychology of those that have actually gone through this to maybe better understand my own wife.

HH-

I'm interested in this question as well but I think you putting the cart ahead of the horse.

Have you read the books? The psychology of a deep fogged out caught cheater like your wife is described in SAA.

Among all the unfairness of her affair Is that you are going away for training with this crap in your head.

Life is real short, my friend and you are mired in a bad spot here pining away for a miracle. A year is a long time to live with wishy washy non committal. You have a right to be happy and you need to start figuring out how.

I don't think anyone believes she'll seek out the om, but absence will not make a fogged out person's heart grow fonder during your away time. Personally, I was away for 5 days this week on business for the first time since dday and I had a hard time. I can't fathom how you are going to handle your (did you say 5 weeks?) away.

You need to keep yourself healthy and that includes your head.

Excellent radio clip on this subject.

Radio Clip on WW's apologizing after an affair

HH, it's been a while. What goes on in your world?

LOTS has happened in the past 3 weeks.

Update:

Well 3 weeks ago one of our twins was hospitalized. We live in the boonies so I took him to the hospital ALL DAY Saturday. He's fine now. Well my wife came an relieved me because I had some responsibility at church first thing in the morning the next day. Come to find out on Monday night she confesses the POSOM emailed her that Friday during our family reunion. My wife didn't want to tell me then to not 'upset' me. She called a mutual friend to find out why he would have emailed her. She told him that the POSOM and OMW went on a vacation together and thought maybe he was contacting 'to say good-bye'. Well my wife called him from the hospital and she explained it was more of a gauging interest sort of thing. She told him she was working things out with me and he promised to never contact her again.

She sincerely apologized to me and begged me to continue being patient with her. She's agreed to EP's such as privatizing our blog, changing phone numbers(even though they're blocked right now), and to do the MB online program with me(we started this past Friday night).

Since that night we went across the country to my family reunion and I've felt commitment from her. For the first time in our marriage I felt she ENGAGED my family and began to understand them and even love them for who they were and to appreciate my heritage from the awesome family I have. She's hugged me quite a bit since then and even held my hand on a date and allowed me to apply sunscreen to her when we went swimming.(This is a big deal as I wasn't able to even touch her before all this). The night after holding my hand, I went to hold her's the next night and she wouldn't let me. This set me off as I felt totally confused and rejected. The mixed signals killed me. I guess she had read a page I'd written when I was pissed off at the POSOM. She said the anger distances her from me. I began to realize then that I was using anger to hide my hurt. The two things that really were eating at me were 1) How she viewed me and treated/neglected my needs and 2) How she still views the POSOM favorably(shows care and concern for his well-being) and gives him the benefit of the doubt on his motives and still to this day values his opinions and counsel that I know he's given to her from reading past chats they had. It irks me to this day(not as bad as it once did though).

Things still aren't perfect but we've had a LOT of time to talk while traveling. It's amazing how the UA time helps. She really is trying now and seems to WANT to try now, whereas before it seemed more out of obligation But we're not there yet and it's SOOOO challenging with Twin baby's and a 4 year old.

She's been happier lately and much more cognizant of my feelings and truly looking for ways to 'serve me'. I'm learning to step back and allow it to happen. Before I always tried to be the gentleman and not allow her a lot of these opportunities as often because I didn't want her to feel obligated like she HAD to anything for her to love me.

I also found out I failed my big exam that I had been studying for through all this(I BARELY failed it, even though I enhanced my score from previous performances it still fell short and have to wait a year to re-take it - this is my FINAL hurdle to my schooling).
I might get kicked out of the military because of it(I dunno), we'll find out in a couple days what the verdict is and if they're willing to work with me on the matter.

In any regards, I'm NOT going to the military schooling for the next 5 weeks now. This one's for you Melodylane. I managed to get out of it, for now. Not trying for this of course, but this is where we are at. God works in mysterious ways and I have the utmost faith that he is working with me and my family through our trials to strengthen us and buoy us up in our marriage and family and that we'll look back on this and see the 'why' then.

For now, my focus is on the Online course with my wife. We went through the Love Bank video online. She said afterwards that those were very wise words. So she's much more in tune and receptive to things. I feel like the 'fog' is lifting rather fast right now and I want it to keep going.

My questions are, what is the best way to attack the Online course for those that have done it previously? We have a hard time getting the proper amount of UA time due to the little kiddo's who still are on no schedule whatsoever because of all the transitions. We usually have a couple hours each night before bed. Which is what we're striving for.

Should we go down the video list of basic concepts first? My wife hasn't read any of Dr. Harley's books yet. It is quite the ordeal for us to find time to read right now. We usually have a 30 minute drive into town when we go. I noticed the Audio CD's are roughly 25-30 minutes long. Should we do those now(or simultaneously with the online video's?) or complete the Online video's first before proceeding onward. I know we need to tackle the biggest problems first. My biggest problem is the lack of SF. Although I find myself scared to touch my wife. I want it. I like it when she does. But it's a challenge for me to initiate anything right now because I'm so gun-shy from everything. I'm afraid of being rejected again I think. I still do it sometimes, but when I want to I hesitate. We talked in our car ride the other day about this and she's given me the green light to try again, but I'm still hesitant and she says there are still times where she might not be 'comfortable' with the physical affection.

I've read HNHN, LB's and am currently reading Buyers, renters and freeloaders.

Just looking for some guidance and structure here as I'm wondering how to best proceed. I know I have more experience with the MB principles, but I KNOW my wife has more instincts towards them once we get going on the course in earnest. I have the next 5 weeks(or more) given to me to work on my marriage.

Hopeful_Hubby,

Well my wife called him from the hospital and she explained it was more of a gauging interest sort of thing. She told him she was working things out with me and he promised to never contact her again.

This is a serious breech of no-contact, an affront to your marriage, an attack on your children and you need to speak with the OMW about it.

If I am reading this correctly, the OM still has a fantasy of either hooking up with your W or still remaining friends. This indicates that he just doesn't get it or is still a threat to your marriage. At worst he is waiting to find your W in an emotionally vulnerable place again. Was OM exploiting the knowledge that your child was in the hospital?

God Bless
Gamma

agreed. i was ticked, but i controlled my temper. he had no way of knowing about the hospitalization. that was just bad timing. he contacted on friday, i read the email later, and she called saturday night. its like a switch turned off in my wife since she told me. its been really nice. most tings seem pretty good...right now even in spite of the chaos circling around us. she said last night to remind her to privatize the blog today9he had been viewing it...this was something i asked her to do back in may because i don't trust that db one bit). i don't expect her to hate him, she thinks i want her to hate him, i don't really care, i want apathy from her towards him...i think hate oftentimes begins the journey to apathy though state of conflict then withdrawal is what im basing that on. she asked how much the mb online course was, i said $350 and she said it better work. i said it'll work if we follow it.

HH-

You need to be more mad at this contact.

This is nothing but a swift kick to your ....

Not good. Not good at all.

You wife not only received something she has been wanting, but this contact has reset the clock on your recovery. There's no 2 ways to look at it.

YOUR WIFE F-ING CALLED HIM? IS SHE NUTS?

Very bad.

i understand all that. it did piss me off, but the # of EP's is increasing and the way she is treating me is improved. so forgive me if my anger is subsiding because of these actions. i do feel safer and more connected to my wife. definitely not where i want to be but vastly improved from even 1 month ago.

What was your condition if she broke NC?

She essentially got her fix, man.

There had to be a ramification for making contact and it should now be triggered. It shouldnt matter whether shes hitting on all other aspects of recovery. For her to reach out to him, and her reason for doing so is really lame, says a whole bunch about whats going on over there.

Stop sugar coating it, buddy. NC is the most basic rule of MB and SHE CALLED HIM!!!!!