This is the classic husband mistake actually. It's easier for us if our wives would just feel different. Then we don't have to stop the behavior we enjoy. Maybe that behavior is something simple like leaving the glass on the counter after having a glass of milk, or maybe it is something tragic and devastating, but whatever it is, the fact is that it is OFFENSIVE, and a caring husband will take measures to stop all actions that are OFFENSIVE to his wife.

And a husband should be motivated by one of the fundamental insights of Marriage Builders: it is easier to change behavior, than it is to change feelings about the behavior. This leads us to the conclusion that in order to have a good marriage, it is behavior that has to change, not feelings. And that in order to have a good marriage, complaints need to be welcomed and encouraged, not met with disrespectful attempts to get the spouse to change what they feel or shut up.

It ain't easy, but that's the work that has to be done.

He lied, which is devastating to any wife (or husband) but especially to the victim of an affair! He must become completely honest and transparent, because there is no way you are going to be able to continue to live with this.

And it's a big red flag when waywards say they will post and don't.

Precisely. I can't help but feel that when he says spending time with you and the kids is 'more important' than posting, that what he means is 'much easier to look good'.

The vets here give him a very hard time and he struggles to keep up a good face, because he isnt being honest yet and the vets are objective enough to tell.

While spending time with his family is of high importance it is in no way the most important thing. Being safe enough to be with you all is - and that means keeping his EPs.

When I volunteered to work with children, the authorities in my county insisted on a criminal records check to ensure I was safe. There was no way I was being allowed in a school until that check came back clear. If anything had been flagged up on my record after I had started volunteer work, I would have been bounced right out again. It would have been pointless for me to bleat that my work with the children was the 'most important' thing had this happened. On the contrary I would have applauded the authroities for trying to keep them safe. THAT is the most important thing.

TRT wants the job of being husband and father, but he doesn't do anything to qualify for the job or prove his safety. He thinks 'doing' the job is the most importnat thing - but of course it is not while his behaviour is so far out of whack.

If it was me personally I would go straight to Plan B because all of his JC gestures have now been shown to be worthless and how can he be taken seriously now? He is not just a serial cheat, but an unremorseful and lovebusting one! The work involved in that kind of recovery makes me dizzy, but I think honestly that any kind of recovery work will fail, because he's looking for the next easy stretch where he doesnt have to do the work and that means he is simply a gift-wrapped False Recovery waiting to happen.

At the very least I would say you could prepare for Plan B and insist on the phone measures Markos suggested. tell him that one single more transgression will see him in Plan B and you file for a D.

I think you will really enjoy plan B. It is hard at first, definitely, but then you start to enjoy life without chaos. Where you don't have to worry about what TRT is doing, whether he is making a mess of his life or not is NOT YOUR PROBLEM! Because he will still make a mess of his life...he knows he's not responsible and reliable.

But there has to be more backbone than just plan B. I think you'll probably have to file for divorce as well. Maybe even get divorced. Then if he wants to have a relationship with you, it is up to him to get his life in order (See, it already is up to him...but he doesn't get that, because you are holding him accountable, so he doesn't bother to do that himself. He doesn't see how that is not in his best interest, because it's seemingly easy, and he then can hope he'll get away with something, since obviously you can't be on him 24/7. He has now demonstrated absolutely no intention of following through with recovery.)

AI, hugs to you, try to plan something really fun and good for you and the kids today to get away from his craziness.

You're in shock. Still in shock from all that you've learned about your husband and marriage. At some point you're going to experience incredible rage. For some betrayed spouses, it doesn't arrive for months.

You've expressed regret about giving him the benefit of the doubt leading up to your decision to have him take a poly. Be careful here not to let your desperation to save this, your desperation to believe he can change, keep you in an ongoing traumatic situation.

This guy is so entitled! He still thinks he can do whatever, whenever and get away with it! Start prepping for plan B. You need space from his crazy making. And he needs to a chance to be alone with the damage he's created for you and your children.

Shame on him.

Al, I hope you have noticed the quotes in my signature...if you haven't, read them and think about your situation. Your WH (I won't even use any form of his username since it's such a joke and insulting) is dangerous. He is not even a good liar/manipulator at this point and his comments haven't held water here since Day 1. He simply has you worn down and instead of doing what is hard...Plan B or D...you are falling into Plan Hope and are starting to blur the lines yourself instead of enforcing boundaries. Stated EPs are worthless without enforcement.

WH has shown consistently and repeatedly that he can't/won't carry the ball even for a short period of time. Subjecting yourself to more abuse will only lead to more damage to YOU and ultimately your children. If you don't think your situation can get any worse, you are WRONG. Not only will you pay the price but so will your children. I asked you a few times if you had family or friends to help you...I do not recall you ever answering. Do you?

You are not at risk of a FR...there has never been any recovery or anything from WH to demonstrate he has gotten with the program for longer than 5 mins...THAT IS CLEAR!! None of us can make you do anything...that's your choice. WH is not fooling you. You are choosing to stay....that's on you. Sorry to be harsh but that is the truth. I hate to see another BS run into the ground and stay in hell. Get out!!

x2.

I believe markos is referencing my ex with the phone history stuff...I believe your H is the same kind of man as my ex. A man that is not commited to giving up his SSL.

For now you should assume that he isn't living a life of radical honesty and he probably shouldn't have a phone or any type of email/internet access that you are not monitoring. You will have to decide if this is the type of R you want, you will always have to watch your WH. He probably shouldn't even run errands alone, etc.

Sorry you are going through this. I understand, I really do....

QFT

Sorry for the slow reply, and many thanks to all for sharing your thoughts and advice.

Spent last night trying to figure out my plan, and super busy with the kids today.

I'll post a real update when they go to bed in a couple of hours. Got a lot going on in my head right now.

AI, I'm so sorry that you have to continue to deal with this.

I will also say that to many of us who have been here for a bit, it doesn't come as a shock. He's still showing some extremely wayward fog here.

If you decide to give him another chance, right now, you are going to need to do what Susie has suggested and monitor EVERYTHING he is doing. Also, he needs to get back to posting, every other day at a MINIMUM right now. He hasn't done nearly enough work yet. He shows signs of his waywardness by thinking that he knows all about MB but obviously, looking at porn is HUGE. And deleting his history could be considered a deal breaker.

You need to set that bar for recovery HIGH.

Did he ever write that separation agreement up? He needs to write one, giving you assets, CS, alimony, and custody of the kids. He should sign it, and then give it to you for you to date in the future should he show any sign of a SSL again.

His internet access needs to be STRICTLY monitored for w long while. He can't be trusted. It's going to take a long time for him to change his habit of lying. He isn't even close yet.

If you decide to go into PLAN B, I would be willing to be your I.M.

Sorry you are going through this AI. You don't deserve it and I will be thinking of you tonight.

I don't know anybody as strong as you. I know you'll be fine no matter what.

Thanks again everybody for all your help and support. I�m going to try and address everything in two big posts to try and keep my thoughts straight. This post is about plan B/separation.

I�m not going into plan B over this latest breach. But I do realize how bad a sign it was, and that I need to be prepared for the eventuality that he�s not serious enough about this to recover with. Part of my terms for going into recovery if he passed the poly was having a backup plan (car in my name, some money, post-nup, etc). A lot of that stalled out with other things we had going on (house construction, kid stuff, a big run of work for me in my small side business). The post-nup lawyer meeting was particularly disillusioning...Canadian law SUCKS for that sort of thing. Essentially we could spend a ton of money writing up a post-nup we both agree on and sign it...and if ever we split, he could still challenge it in court, and a judge could overturn it if it�s deemed unfair. You also can�t specify custody AT ALL in that kind of marital contract.

If I go into plan B down the road, I really doubt it will be with the intent to reconcile if he ever gets his act together. It will be dark plan B on the way to D. After ALL of this, I don�t think I would ever want him back if it came to that. He knows that.

I know my choice - not to separate at this point - is incomprehensible to some. There are even odd moments where it�s incomprehensible to me. TRT is a serial cheater and an even bigger serial liar. That�s a huge mountain to overcome, and I know it puts this attempted recovery in a different category than a one-time offense. It also means it�s going to take time and effort to break those horrible habits. I want to make sure the time and effort is put in to make sure we�ve given it everything we�ve got. Does that mean I�ll stand for anything? No. There are EPs that if broken would mean immediate divorce. This isn�t one of them...but I did take internet access off his phone for the time being. Does that make sense as an EP consequence?

I want to make sure I give my kids every shot at having an intact family as well. If he can�t reform, so be it. If he can, if we can get through the uphill battle of recovery after so much damage, that�s what I want. For all of us.

TRT has many good qualities as a husband and father, too. And he�s done a lot of work in the period since the poly. In my opinion he hasn�t done the RIGHT things or showed that his focus is on recovery, but he has made efforts. For the good things. For the progress, however small. For that, I�m willing to keep trying, for now. I know it�s a long road.

Anyway, I think I rambled too much there and I�m not sure if I got my point across or just sounded like an idiot in denial.

I�m not in denial. I may be trying past the point where it�s a great idea, but I�m not in denial. I know he may not change, and I�ll be ready. My prep for potential future separation:

Going to take Scotland�s excellent advice and write an undated separation agreement detailing finances and custody instead of paying for a marital contract that may mean diddly squat to get drawn up. If we were to separate, I would have this and he would need to follow the terms unless he took it to court to get it changed. This will be done by the end of Tuesday.

I have a separate bank account that I will continue to put small amounts of money in as a cushion in case I need it.

I�m strongly considering getting a part-time job, or taking my side business to a higher level to bring in some cash of my own.

Pending acceptance, I�ll be going back to school in September for a certification that will allow me to make a decent living and support my family if I need to, or just want to.

The official transfer of the car into our joint names instead of his alone will happen tomorrow (we only got as far as getting the paperwork, and haven�t gone in to do the official thing where you sign).

I have, and greatly appreciate, a few offers from folks here to be an IM if I need one. Thank you.

I was asked if I have friends and family...I do have some. I don�t have a ton of emotional support, but I do have folks who would help me. I wouldn�t be homeless and my kids wouldn�t starve while I got on my feet.

Is there anything else I should think about in terms of being prepared if it comes down to it?

I think that�s the gist. My next post is about how I plan to approach recovery from here on out.

About recovery:

I know that I�m attempting recovery with a serial cheater and a very natural liar, and that will require a lot more work on both our parts if it�s going to work. Pretending like simple measures will suffice is a mistake. I know I�m trying to recover with a man who�s been unfaithful from the get-go. Two one-night-stands in the early days (one with a �friend� of mine), then around six years of no PHYSICAL infidelity before a full-blown major affair that lasted from late Feb to early May of this year when I caught it. But during those years, he was still wayward, because he�s addicted to the high of having people meet his emotional needs. Flirting, inappropriateness, long-distance email/chats of a sexual nature with people...he�s been acting like a single guy who just happened to have a wife and kids waiting at home for him.

No illusions here.

I know that recovery with serial cheaters is somewhat different than recovery from a one-time indiscretion where the addiction is to a certain person. I�d love to hear more about that...any info or personal experience with serial cheating would be most welcome. My understanding is that EPs and preventative measures have to be more extreme and more global, because the addiction is to that getting needs met outside your marriage, and that can happen anywhere, anytime. I know my husband is an admiration junkie, and that will be a difficult thing for him to overcome.

I also am extremely aware that TRT is willing to put aside/procrastinate on the WORK of REAL recovery if he can maintain/believe an ILLUSION that things are okay/going well. So there needs to be a driving force here, and for now that needs to be me. The work is immense.

We have a few things going for us - he is on extended medical leave from work, so he is here and accountable ALL the time. No secret second life, no chatting people up, no admiring fans to give him an ego boost. When his medical leave is up, he will resign from his job (this is non-negotiable and has been agreed on from the start...OW works there). We�re looking at a business venture right now that would not only be way better money and skank-free, but would have him working with my uncle. It would be manual labour. No women, no computers, constant companionship of someone who won�t enable messing around.

Anyway, I have an initial starting point for how to proceed from here and would love any feedback:

After the porn/deleting history/lying episode, the internet on his phone is disabled for the time being. I have a code lock on the restrictions so he can�t re-enable it without me. I�ll put it back on in a few weeks, probably...AFTER I have some sort of keylogger/spyware installed. Any suggestions? It�s an iPhone 4.
Future indiscretions/history deleting mean the internet is gone for good.
I�ve also restricted his ability to install apps, because I know there are ones out there like secret text apps and whatnot.
I�m not a fan of him not having a phone at all, because I want/need to be able to get ahold of him at any time, wherever he is.

I�m selling my laptop this week, so we will only have one computer in the house I need to keep track of, and it�s a desktop in a public room. Any recommendations on keyloggers etc for Macs?

He hasn�t gotten around to one of his EPs, which was to delete his remaining two old email addresses and go to using only one new one, which nobody questionable has the address for. He has to be done with this by the end of the day.

He also needs to get a real post up here by the end of the day. And keep up with what people suggest/have to say.
He needs to listen to the MB radio show daily.

We need to go through the EP list again and decide if anything needs to be added/refined, and specifically WHAT HAPPENS if these EPs are broken. This needs to be finished by the end of the day Tuesday.

So does the separation agreement Scotland suggested as insurance in case of a need to go plan B (any resources/advice drafting that with Canadian law in mind, very welcome!)

We have a lot of reading material to work through in this endeavour (MB stuff, some verbal abuse stuff, some anger management material), and it keeps getting back-burnered. We need to prioritize both of our reading lists, with specified dates for completion. I want this prioritized list done in the next two days.

I want to plan two weeks worth of UA time, which includes fun stuff but also time to discuss what we�re currently reading, and start doing the worksheets in 5 Steps to Romantic Love.

I want us both to bring home all receipts for all purchases and put them in a designated place so they can be matched against any money taken from our account. This is another way he�s kept secrets - skimming money, making purchases he doesn�t tell me about, etc.

We will do another poly by the end of August confirming no contact has been maintained, and he's agreed that we will poly again, at any time in the future, to ensure my peace of mind and keep him accountable.

Okay. This is my initial, get-off-the-ground, get the heck to work starter plan. What am I missing? How else can we encourage/ensure transparency? Any suggestions or advice? Any other ways to keep busting up the fog?

Thanks again so much to all. I hope I�m on the right track for once.
This is hard.

I know that I�m attempting recovery with a serial cheater and a very natural liar....

Cool! Now you've defined the problem. The corollary is that there can no marriage with someone with those defining characteristics.

Where you seem to be faltering is making the linkage between "there can no marriage with someone with those defining characteristics" and "I�m attempting recovery with a serial cheater and a very natural liar".

STOP trying to create /restore a marriage until the cheater/liar definition is no longer valid. It's kinda like (I enjoy automobile analogies) putting more air into the tire BEFORE repairing the puncture!

You have NOTHING to do with the cheater/liar part, except keep track of his progress. It's all on him.

Jeez, those are long. Sorry guys!

I just realized I didn't address one thing that was asked: is he still lovebusting.

Yes. Much less, but yes.

It seems he defaults to anger. He doesn't seem to process any negative emotions that aren't anger. He's never just sad, or just afraid, or just disappointed, or just frustrated. It defaults to anger, and he breaks out lovebusters in an attempt to control the situation.

He's joining MEVAC (Men Ending Verbal Abuse and Control).
Working on it.
I know this is also a long road/hard thing to overcome.

Sigh. AI, I feel for you. I'm so sorry to hear that he's still lovebusting...remember that Dr. Harley defines a person having an angry outburst as temporarily insane. This really helped me understand my OWN angry outbursts and redirect myself when I start to lose it.

Can he articulate any of the things you identify about him? That seems really perceptive about the negative emotions...but does he understand it?

I know where you are coming from wanting this to work. I have the utmost sympathy for that. I stayed in a miserable situation way longer than reasonable because I was trying to patch the holes in the sinking ship. I just think, looking at you and TRT, your threads, how he responds to things, etc., that you will spend the rest of your life with him, holding his feet to the fire, because he doesn't want to do the work himself to become the man he should be. And that means that, once again, your needs are relegated to a very low level, overcome by his issues.

I'm glad to see your action plan of working on getting the EPs implemented and having consequences. I hope TRT will start posting soon to show that he is working on recovery as well. And take care of yourself...your kiddos need you to be safe, strong, and sane.

Hmmmmmmm...I still don't like but it is your choice. Your situation is very troubling to me. My exWH is a lot like yours... a lot. He is a lot like the other serial WSs/liars I have seen over the four years I have been on MB. The outcomes were not good. Some people just disappeared from MB altogether...I can only imagine why but I have a pretty good idea. One thing I have not seen (maybe others have) during my time on MB is the way your WH jokes or uses humor about your situation like it's a melodramatic sitcom while he continues to stab you.

Your WH has admitted to a history of depression and suicidal thoughts. That makes him high risk for recovery. Even w/o that admission, people can have such thoughts and feelings but yours admits to struggling with a history of depression. I had to deal with a depressed, suicidal WH...it adds more trauma to YOU.

Your WH admits to AOs and a bad temper. Feelings of anger are a normal part of A fallout but your WH has a long history of them which is troubling. Do not put it past him to get violent. IT CAN HAPPEN. Myself and others have had to deal with such situations and it adds more trauma to YOU.

Any additional trauma that affects you...and there is still the "normal" rollercoaster of emotions in store for you...affects your children because it affects their mom's mental, emotional and physical health or worse yet they are witness to such events.

I will refrain from posting in your thread for the time being for a number of reasons. I hope you lean on your friends and family NOW...not just if/when you decide to do Plan B/D. It sounds like you are taking on A LOT with school, possible job, three youngsters, etc. I worry for you. I'm going to shut up before I start rambling.

Prayers to you, Al.

So essentially back-burner the rebuilding aspect until there's serious progress?

If protection is the first and very crucial step, there's obviously a lot that has to happen before any further progress is made.

You've got to be kidding me.

Thanks so much for your support.

I hope he proves all your fears (and mine) wrong, but I'm well aware that I can't control his choices or behaviour. Only what I'm willing to put up with.