Thank you. I understand your concern, and I know you're coming from a place of knowing how badly situations like this can turn out.

I wish.

Please listen.

Radio clip on a serial cheater trying to recover
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

Good luck.

Wow!
I was so hoping to see something very different...
WH must be pleased / relieved ...
People have been telling your WH that "actions" are more important than "words"...
All I can say is, "Wow"!
Agree w/Pepperband ~ ~ ~
"Good Luck"

AI,

Your husband has not committed to a recovered marriage. He is unwilling to take the second step towards recovery - giving up the secret second life that made affairs possible. Your posts indicate that you understand this and have decided to stay with him anyway.

One of the consequences of YOUR current decision is the impact on your health. Trying one-sided recovery is rough not only emotionally but physically to betrayed wives. Dr. Harley often talks about the long-term effect on women's immune systems. That is one of the reasons Plan B is warranted in your type of situation.

Your situation is not very promising at this time. I join the others in wishing you well.

AM

AI,

Your husband reads this thread like a hawk and cross-posts from it.

You understand he has the major upper-hand here, right?

He will not change because he knows you will not leave him no matter what.

Just as we have said to him: "actions, not words". We now say the same to you. So far, you have given him a lot of words about what you will do if he continues to abuse you and break EP's but the truth is that you seem to be unwilling to truly follow up with separation or other consequences.

And it is with that, a manipulator and liar will not need to change - ever.

Like all abusive relationships, whether emotional or physical, they thrive upon the ultimate reluctance of their victim to actually take a stand and walk away. To "walk the walk".

Good luck to you AI, you will really need it at this point because only luck can help you if you are unwilling to truly stand up for yourself. This is now becoming the marriage you have chosen.

Hi AI,

I have the same concerns as others and I'm not going to waste your time by telling you he's not serious because I know you see that for yourself.

You said you can only control what you will accept, so I'm going to focus on that.

What happens if he breaks another EP?

What if he never breaks another EP, but carries on in the same nonchalant attitude with some lovebusting on the side?

He isn't going to be able to heal you like that, while he has this breezy 'I know I was a naughty boy' attitude. Your marriage will just limp along.

Do you have a deadline in which he has to get serious? It should be three weeks only, but we're way past that point.

Like others I'm concerned about your health. I know you can't imagine doing a Plan B while he's not serious to protect your health but I don't think you appreciate that your lovebank is bleeding out on to the floor too, and then neither one of you will care about recovery.

AI, realise that the posters here want what is best for you and your marriage. There are many who have seen this situation, and I can tell you from my persoanl experience that it seems that your most likely scenario here is that you are setting yourslef up for a FR. None of us want that for you.

Also, I am quite concerned that you feel the need to get HIM through recovery. That's not your job. He needs to get himself, and you, through recovery.

I'll add my cautions here as well, although many others have given you very good advice. My FWH was VERY remorseful once the fog lifted. He avoided lovebusting like the plague; he took all my tears during those first six months, took all my incredible ANGER with him and all the destruction he wreaked on me, which set in around 6 months, without lovebusting. There were times I was so upset with him, I felt like I was reeling with pure hatred and anger and despair, and he never lovebusted. He was gentle and reassuring and pursued me. He lived his life as though one of my feet was just stepping out the door. And it was. And recovery was still the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. Our recovery could not possibly have happened with him acting the way yours does. It would have pushed me to the brink of despair and ruined my emotional and physical health....and I'm considered to be a very strong person, much like you sound to be.

A really good idea would be to legally separate while he undergoes anger management first and begins to live with the real consequences of what he has done to you. Let him prove his trustworthiness to you. He can voluntarily get a phone that has no Internet access, like a prepaid phone. He should be pursuing you with gentleness and remorse, never lovebusting.

My H was a bit like yours--an admiration junkie with terrible boundaries around women. Since he was no longer meeting my ENs and therefore I wasn't admiring him the way he liked, he loved getting it from others. He flirted, had an emotional affair and groping in a hotel room during business travel years ago, online crap, inappropriate emails with women, a dreadful habit of masturbation and porn, spent money without my knowledge and against my will, and eventually had a physical and emotional affair that nearly destroyed our marriage.

One strategic mistake I made all those years ago was never letting him live with the consequences of his actions. I never separated myself from him, under the mistaken notion that somehow I was supposed to "save him," and that he was the father of our child and I didn't want to have a broken home. But when I look back and realized what I helped put our family through by not drawing my own boundaries all those years ago, I have great regret.

Your "husband" wrote this gem, hidden amongst the huge steaming pile of false humility known as his MB thread ....


How very sad. I am sorry/disappointed you failed to listen to her. She must have been very, very concerned for your safety as well as your mental/physical health.

Here's a test, Al.

Read the following quote and see if you can spot the screaming red of horror !!!


Hint: If he fails, who is responsible?

Maybe for the benefit of other BSs that are lurking:


I'm out

So essentially back-burner the rebuilding aspect until there's serious progress?
If protection is the first and very crucial step, there's obviously a lot that has
to happen before any further progress is made.



A half-dozen of the best have echoed my concern, AI. "Talk" is worth nothing but the paper it is "not" printed on.

Dear AI:

My husband was (is?) a serial cheater and a habitual liar. First affair was right after our first year of marriage and the last affair ended in 2006, although I did not get the whole truth about both affairs until 2010. The years in between were punctuated by all kinds of things I had no idea about - persistent inappropriate behavior with women, looking at all forms of porn, visiting pornographic bookstores, a ONS with a prostitute at a bachelor party...all of which CGIR kept from me. I'm still not sure if I have the WHOLE truth about his last affair; I think he's kept one thing from me.

We went to marriage counseling (pre-MB), read the MB materials and counseled with Jennifer Harley (CGIR lied to her, too, and she believed him - he was good enough that she "graduated" us). I went to IC and CGIR went to IC. Nothing helped. Things would be good between us, then I'd catch CGIR in a lie. He'd try gaslighting me, giving me an excuse, or he'd try to bully me out of my position by yelling at me. Like your husband (it seems), CGIR would do things HE wanted to do for me (buying me gifts, cleaning, chores, taking me places, etc.) and then use those actions to entitle himself to do what HE wanted to do for himself (e.g., look at porn, look up OW on Facebook, etc.).

We had EPs, but the truth is, for a motivated person, there is no EP that will make a certain behavior impossible. More difficult, sure, but impossible? Nope. EPs will not stop a spouse who doesn't get it.

The thing ONLY that made a REAL difference for CGIR was a poster here who took the time to post to him regularly and who recommended the book, "Leadership and Self-Deception." The poster and that book were the ONLY thing that helped CGIR "get it." Not me, not my pain, not the damage he caused, not all the other things we did that I listed above.

(While I will always be grateful to this poster, I'm hurt that it took an anonymous person on the internet to get through to him, and think, what kind of relationship do we have if he relates better to a stranger than to his wife?)

Since 2010, things are better now than they were, and A LOT better than when things were really bad. But, I still don't trust CGIR. For the past two years, he's been working from home, his work computer is locked-down (by his employer), I control the cell phones and have the only access to the account, etc., etc. But, I can't monitor him all the time. I do some things by myself - I work, I shop, I leave the room, I shower - which gives CGIR time, if he wishes, to do things that I do not want him to do. I will not monitor him every second; I've done that and it's detrimental to my well-being.

Since 2010, CGIR can go about 6-8 months without lying to me. I'm not particularly worried he'll have another PA right now; he's in a severely restricted position opportunity-wise as both he and I are working from home for the next few months. Porn is his greatest struggle. CGIR fully understands that no porn of any type is acceptable, and that my definition is exceedingly broad as to what constitutes porn. One night, last February, I was pulling an all-nighter finishing something for work. I had the TV on for background noise and was glancing at it on and off. I noticed the red "record" light come on our DVR and I pulled up the menu to see what was being recorded. A soft-porn "TV MA" movie (i.e., free), set to record at 4:00 a.m. when I would normally be asleep. I didn't say anything to CGIR, but he noticed I was upset when I left for work that morning, and I guess when he looked at the TV later that day he figured out what happened. Instead of being honest with me and telling me he slipped, he told me since things were going so well between us, he thought he'd record some movies we could watch together. In the 30 years we've been together, I've NEVER enjoyed pornographic movies and have been vocal and clear on my position. Add to this the particular theme of this movie, and it's the most ridiculous excuse that could be made.

I obviously didn't divorce him, but I did think about it. Basically, I'm just not ready to be divorced yet. There is a certain behavior related to porn that will be a deal-breaker, but I'm not actively looking for that behavior right now, because, I'm not ready to be divorced. Although, I will say that day-to-day things on my end seem to be much better than on your end.

In hindsight, I wish I had done two things: one, thrown CGIR out after his 2006 affair. I think that would have given us our best chance for recovery. And two, gotten a poly after CGIR's 2010 confession. I still may ask for a poly, but until I am ready to walk, I'm waiting.

Well, that's my story. Good luck to you - I hope you get what you want.

BV

Quick answer on the agreement re: marital assets/spousal support - make sure you both get separate independent legal advice and document that fact.

It's not worth the paper it's written on if he goes back on his word, and he is an inveterate liar. Remember that falsifying a legal document or lying in any kind of legal proceeding is an offence (if it ever came to that).

I wish you luck.

{{{{{AI}}}}}

i'm going to delve into the past and share a little of my story with you (not in my thread), because i think it's relevant. i hope you think so too. (sorry this is long, folks. don't feel obligated if you're not ai!)

in june 2006, my WH came home from 3 months working overseas. i came home from work at lunch, looked him straight in the eye, told him how much i loved and missed him, and we had sf. i went back to work happy as a clam (because we had always joked that if one of us cheated, we wouldn't expose the other that way. yeah, funny, haha). though i had known for some time something was off, i figured the space had allowed us to refocus.

three nights later we went to dinner. and, as usual when we had time alone to enjoy, he made it awful. being mean, rude, etc. finally, in anger, i said, "well, why don't you just piss off back to the usa again!" and he said, "fine. i will." i got up from the table and walked out.

we didn't speak on the drive home. when we got home, i don't really remember how we spoke, until he said those words: "i've got something to tell you." sh1t. just thinking about it now makes my blood run cold.

yes, he'd met up with and had sex with some skank he met online. he "loved" her (they met 2x!), despite the fact that she had a 3 year old and smoked (he's a rabid anti, AND doesn't like kids). and he wanted to bring her here. i was hysterical. i couldn't believe that he had done this, and then come home and had sex with me!

i threw him out. i asked him not to go. i kneeled at his feet with my arms around his knees and begged him not to go. i made him go. when he came back the next day, i made him write his wh0re and tell her it was over, that he was committed to our M. it was a farce.

and then i spent the next 6 months in he11. crying every single day in the shower, and many times during the day. going weekly to MC, which was devastatingly painful and not helpful at all. plan a-ing my heart out (i had no knowledge of MB then, so basically just trying to be the "perfect" wife). dealing with his anger, his lies, his continued contact, his poor boundaries around other women. remember what i said to you about the adrenaline? i speak from experience. i was constantly on the lookout for these types of things, and i kept finding them. oh, and i was trickle-truthed nearly to death. you didn't really think the "NC" email ended with NC, did you? i found out he had had several online profiles for the previous 9 months, was actively seeking women to meet, was on a look-for-sex website (where he met skank), the list goes on and on. MY husband, the man i married because he WAS different, would never have an a.

though he didn't have the opportunity to have another/continued PA (i stuck to him like a limpet), he certainly wasn't dedicated to our M. and every time i "caught" him, he AOed. never AT me, but he broke things, yelled, stomped, etc. and of course it was all MY fault. never his. after all, i was the insecure, jealous wife! it was all my problem!

and still, i tried. i went through the usual: hysterical bonding, wanting to renew our vows (since our original M was broken), 2nd honeymoon, etc. the usual stuff we all see with the newly betrayed who desperately want to spackle their Ms back together.

during the 6 months, i suffered. oh, how i suffered. i have an autoimmune disease already, so this level of stress didn't help. i was a ghost at work; i was so not-there i almost lost my job. i started gaining weight (well, a packet of cookies a day will do that to you). i was bloody miserable. and a fool. it was like being in a coma. like i could see and hear everything, but couldn't say or do anything. does that make sense?

and you know who paid for all this? our DD. our beautiful, loving, trusting DD13 had no idea what was going on, but she was neglected in a way that brings tears to my eyes even now. not abandoned; we still did family things, did homework together, spent our school holiday time together, but i wasn't THERE. and she witnessed all of the mess her parents made, though she didn't know WHY. can you imagine how scary that was? i can. i went through it with my own parents.

those 6 months were the worst of my entire life, and i haven't had a great one. i've always been seriously ill. my mother cheated on my father, got involved in a seriously abusive (she was BEATEN, and i mean BEATEN, repeatedly, and mentally tortured) relationship when i and my sister lived with her, left our family for the abuser. one month i moved 15 times trying to help her escape the abuser, parenting my mother (i was 12), but she always went back. he even kidnapped her twice. my mother went crazy. my father cried on MY shoulder. i've been in and out of the hospital for years with multiple surgeries because of my illness. i've had some bad relationships with men, including a physically abusive 1st husband.

but all of that pales in comparison, is NOTHING, compared to those 6 months. i would rather live my whole life over again, multiple times, than have to live that 6 months.

when did this stop? when did we get turned around?

when i left him. (think plan b.)

i don't even remember the catalyst - just some other thing, like a lie or a website. it was just, finally, enough. i didn't even take anything. just up and went. oh, and finally started telling people what was going on.

this was the catalyst not only for me, but for him. when he realized that i wouldn't, couldn't continue to stay at home and take whatever & how little he dished out, he finally came clean, recommitted to our M. we really managed to turn it around, and this was all on our own. without any help or support. without MB.

and so, i never recovered.

of course, we didn't affair-proof our M, which is why we had our recent trouble. however, with the help of MB and everyone here, i finally feel like we're clean and new and working towards a real recovery from 6 years ago.

ai, you are in the deepest recesses of he11 right now. you are in so much agonizing pain, you cannot see what is happening to you. and, believe me, i know that leaving/plan b seems even more impossible than getting through this. but ai, there ARE people who love you who can help you. you only need to ask them. people are afraid to broach the subject with us BSs, because they don't know what to say; they don't want to offend/upset us even more than we are. but they are there. you and your children WILL be ok.

ai, do you remember a few pages back where i said you should lose this thread? i believe so even more now. you need to hide. you need to be where trt can't read, so you have time and space to think and vent and get advice without him knowing all your cards.

ai, reach out to your loved ones. tell them you need their help. it won't be easy. it'll be hard, but nowhere near as hard as what you're doing now.

and so i ask, ai, what can i do to help you today?

AI, if you allow him to stay, he will only get worse. He has no reason to change or choose you. He is having his cake and eating it too while you are home holding it all together. Please don't be me. I am in hell. With people like your husband, spouses, their wants and needs, just don't matter as much as them living their independent lives doing whatever they want to make themselves feel good. They will always chase that at your expense!!! Please, PLEASE, respect yourself, love yourself, care for yourself, value yourself more than to allow him to treat you in this manner ANY LONGER!!!! He will keep doing this b/c he can!!! Is this really what you want?

Excellent radio clip where Dr. H talks about what a WH should do for his wife to give him another try after his affairs. He explains it like an addict.

Radio Clip on a WH on what to do to get back with his wife 3:50 mark

Are you doing MB coaching? Will you at least email Dr. Harley?

AI, you need to keep that bar HIGH, or you are going to get a False Recovery, which is more agonizing than the original betrayal(can you even imagine that?). Your EPs are non-negotiable. He needs to know that if there is ever a next one that is broken, the consequences are that he is GONE, and you will enter Plan B. He gives you EVERYTHING. He walks away, and he loses. That is HIS choice. He can either agree to EVERYTHING or he is GONE. No second chances. This has to be IT. If it isn't, you are in for YEARS of emotional damage and torture. The posters here will not watch that happen to you. We care more about you than that. Do not care about yourself more than that?

I know that you are scared. You are afraid that if you enter Plan B, that you will lose your marriage. Thing is, the way your WH is right now, you have already lost it.

Hold that bar up HIGH, and don't let him convince you to lower it. You're worth more than a half azzed recovery attempt.