AI, I am so sorry for what you are going through. Like someone above said, I wish you could have a thread that your husband can't read. I feel like I'm watching one of those movies where the enemy has a spy in with the good guys ready for their every next move.

Your husband does not sound sincere at all. I say that, because I have BEEN HIM. The first time I cheated on my H, I told him about it right away- I WAS sincerely sorry about my actions. but I was still angry- thought everything was his fault, and didn't want to do anything of value to fix it. I wish we had MB back then, b/c I know for a fact everyone here would've called me out on my behavior/attitude, and when I wasn't doing what I should've been, told my H to plan B me. Which would've probably worked in my case.

I listened to my H tell me, "you're going to do this and that and that, and I know you think you're not going to have to do this and get your way, but you're not" He was exactly right- I was sitting across the car from him thinking, "Nope, not gonna do this, that, OR that." And he didn't make me- so I won. (or lost, depending on how you look at it).

Because a little more than a year later, I cheated on him AGAIN! His biggest fear was just realized. I tore out his heart again. I told him about the 2nd A, and he told me we were over. He was dead serious this time. Dead serious. He wasn't working with me on EP's. He didn't care about anything I was doing, and told me that. I still did it anyway- he watched, watched and still watches and somehow, by the grace of God he has not filed for divorce yet. We are still married, but it's only been 6 months, so I don't know what might happen in the end.

My point is, if your H is truly repentant and remorseful, he will be doing everything in HIS power ON HIS OWN to show you that. There would be no need for you to tell him to do anything.

Please listen to all the advice everyone is giving you, they know what they're talking about. I don't want you to get hurt again.

AI,

It appears you feel we have 'abandoned' you.

We have not.

But if you are unwilling to actually stand up for yourself and follow Marriage Builders advice, we simply cannot continue to watch you massacre yourself in this manner.

You have taught TRT that NO MATTER WHAT, you will not actually leave him. He has, as he always has, backed you into the corner and called your bluff.

Have you read his recent post on his thread? He knows this. He knows you will not leave him. He has the upper hand here, and only you can change that. But TRT is the most dangerous of all spouses - the ones who know they can beat you down to a bloody pulp and you are too broken to walk away.

If you are willing to actually take a true stand for yourself - the ultimate stand - then we will be there to help you. But we've stood at the door of the lion's den, screamed at you to run away, and you walked right back in. That is impossible for us to support.

Ok. Allow me to enhance your understanding.

I'm angry. Why? Because while I am advising you to get sexy with that "husband" of yours, he is viewing porn and deleting the evidence. That pisses me off. It should do more than piss you off, it ought to awaken you to the reality of your situation.

Porn is highly toxic to your marriage. As toxic as prostitutes or other women.
Some time ago, I wrote the following "opinion" piece regarding porn. I was angry at that time as well. At the time, there was a WH posting ... believing he was righteous, while he was a boat load of crap. Meanwhile, back at the farm, he's doing porn and hookers and really saw nothing seriously wrong with that.


This is the discussion thread on Other Topics

Now, WHY is this so important for you to think about?

Your "husband" wrote these comments:



And this "winner":


Men who view porn are LOUSY IN BED. They make CRAPPY lovers. They do not MAKE LOVE, they SCREW.

Why do you think your "husband" feels so little empathy for you? PORN disallows intimacy. Men who view porn prefer non-intimate sex. SCREWING. They (your "WH") are LOUSY LOVERS. Men who view porn have no effin' idea how to go deeply into the love-making and connect soul-to-soul.

Your "husband" is a lousy sexual partner, because it's "sex" not intimacy.

Think about this comment:

For your "husband" sexuality MEANS he is superior to you.
Disgusting.
PORN does this to men.
It is insidious.
It is highly destructive to any marriage.

Your "husband" thinks he has some "insight" now. He's got none.
He is a CRAPPY lover because of PORN. He's not some 16 year old who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He is a "husband" who is avoiding true loving intimacy at every opportunity.

I see he has NOTHING going on.
Nothing.
Men like this are clueless as to what CRAPPY lovers they actually are.

I am very angry at him.

I don't know guys. I do get where you're coming from. I really do.

But it went from 'he broke an EP...are you preparing for the possibility of plan B, what are the consequences for broken EPs?' to the general consensus being that I'm an enabling moron for not having gone straight to plan B. That's pretty brutal.

But I get it.

I am prepared to separate, and I explained that in detail.

My understanding is that the reason for Plan A (make no mistake, I'm aware we're not in Plan A territory here) is that you need the peace of mind from knowing you did everything you could to make it work before going to plan B.

I feel like with the mess that was made here by not having MB from the start, and then not following the right advice from the start, I really didn't feel like I had done everything I could possibly do. If I had gone to plan B because of the porn/history deleting incident, I would have been haunted by the idea that I hadn't done this RIGHT, hadn't done everything in MY power to make it work. I don't want that hanging over my head. That's why I made the decision I made.

What I outlined above in my two big posts...THAT is everything I can do. That is my last stand. The rest is up to him. Change on his part is up to him. I'm not fooling around, and I'm not unwilling to call it quits if he can't/won't do what he needs to do. I needed to ensure I had made every attempt to do what *I* could.

To all - I do appreciate the fact that you wish me well and want what's best for me. I do too.

Longwayfromhome, Brokenvase, Letty, DoroM, thank you for sharing your experiences with me.

If this were true, we would tell you. In fact, we'd be yelling "PLAN A longer" at you.

Read my previous post.
Then, take a Tylenol, you'll need it.

There were quite a few posts there at the start that said "Go to Plan B now," not "prepare for the possibility of Plan B."

I don't believe anyone has called you a moron. If they have, I suggest you notify the mods.

I don't believe you are a moron. I do believe that you are doing more harm to yourself and your children than you realize.

You have done what you could.
You cannot do any more than what you've done.
It's all up to him now.

You are repeating this mistake.

How will you know if he can't/won't do what he needs to do?

She's right, yanno.

AI, nobody thinks you are a moron.

I, and everyone else, sees a good wife and mother who wants so much to restore her family to what it deserves. That's all we see.

But I mention "old habits", in that while TRT's old habits are well known to all of us by now, you appear to be slipping into your own - which means allowing your husband to abuse you over and over, responding with threats and boundaries, but not necessarily following through with those threats and boundaries.

The problem is that TRT is not the kind of person to be scared by, what he perceived to be, an empty thread or boundary. He has stated over and over a superiority and entitlement - he is entitled to forgiveness, he is entitled to his behavior, and most of all, the superiority over you, AI, meaning that he will always have the last say or word.

All we are saying, is that you've been through SAA and the materials, you've done the absolute BEST you can, but you are facing the fork in the road - and hesitating. We see you going down the wrong path, the temporary let's believe-TRT-path, the same one that has led you astray your whole marriage.

Believe me, we care about you. I have to say, you seem to one of the best wives and mother I've ever seen around these parts. I'm a mom too, I don't know how you get this strength. But don't let that resilience translate into masochism.

I needed to know it for myself. For my own peace.

I saw your post just after I put mine up. I agree.
A LOT of his longstanding habits are things that prevent real intimacy. Whether he can come to see that and change it...that's the big question here.

Men who choose PORN over sexual intimacy with their loving wives are lazy.
Habitually lazy. PORN teaches men to be lazy.

I'm not concerned about your "husband" changing.
I'm trying to open YOUR EYES to what you are dealing with.
You still hope you can change him. I can tell.

I learned from my Al-Anon experience that I can only change myself.
You need to change. To develop.
I don't care at all about him.
He's used me once too many times.

Prisca, alis, Pep...

I get it. It looks and sounds like just more of the same.

I made this decision so I would know I'd done EVERYTHING before I decide to call it quits. I don't hope I can change him. I hope he can change himself. I hope he wants to. If he doesn't, I will separate, because I know I'm at the end of my rope and this dance dragged on WAY too long.

But for all you know these are just excuses to delay something hard, and nobody wants to enable an enabler. I do understand where you're coming from.

You do not understand where I'm coming from if you think that's what I said.

How will you know he doesn't?

Al, we raised 2 kids. One was really a difficult child. (He's OK now, but man did he put us through hell !!!)

I enabled him a lot, mostly because I felt sorry for him. His birth parents abandoned him & he spent his first 3 years in a marginal foster home. So, I often solved problems for him. This almost ended our marriage. I cannot describe how awful this child became as a teenager. We had to send him out of state for his final year of high school. When he turned 18, he graduated and came home. As resentful and angry as ever. Plus, he was using drugs and alcohol to self medicate.
We knew he'd cause chaos in our home, so we paid for him to stay in a sober-living home where he would have to follow strict rules or get himself kicked out.

Of course, within a week he broke a rule and was kicked out for 3 days. He thought he'd be staying with us. Wrong.

We told him that his choices got him to that point, and he'd have to figure out where to go on his own.

Son: "MOM! How can you do this to your son? I'll be homeless and living in the park."
Me:"Well, I guess you should have made better choices. Call us when you are back in the sober living house."

I was literally ON MY KNEES praying for God to push his face in the muck in the gutter .... "But, don't kill him". I had finally realized that if I rescued him again, it would be the cruelest thing I could do.

OMG that was hard.
If you think it's hard with a wayward husband, try the "mom guilt" when it is a beloved child who needs to feel the full weight of his consequences.

It made me tough.
It made me a better mother.
It made me a better advisor to my patients.
And, it made me a better wife to Mr Pep.

Our son in now an Army medic. He's doing amazing things. He's getting the discipline he needs to succeed in life.

I post this to you to let you know that good things can come from tough love.

Breaking any more EPs. Lack of progress. Back-burnering the work and failing to follow through on the plan that's been made. Lashing out in anger. Making demands of me. Lying. Justifying any small slips instead of taking responsibility.

If he can't get the protection phase down, there's clearly no hope of building anything worthwhile.

For the last two days he's taken a lot of initiative and showed self-control. Could be progress. Could be 'let's pacify her until she lets her guard down'. Time will tell.

Do you have any suggestions?

Yes. Be more specific.

"Breaking any more EPs" - This is too vague and "any more" offers wiggle room. How about breaking ONE MORE???

"Lack of progress" - Measured how? Too vague. You need a measuring tool.

"Back-burnering the work and failing to follow through on the plan" - Again, vague and not measurable.

"Lashing out in anger" - You must be specific. ONE more AO and he's O.U.T.

"Making demands of me" - Too vague. He will not have a clue what you mean.

"Justifying any small slips instead of taking responsibility" - I guarantee he will do this.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have ZERO tolerance for Mr Pep breaking his sobriety. He drinks, he's gone. He's been happily sober 16.5 years. That is clear and precise and easy to measure.

Pepperband said it perfectly. These things are vague.

Gotcha. How's this?

If he lies to me, he's out.
If he breaks another EP, he's out.
If he gets angry and lashes out at me instead of controlling himself or walking away to calm down, he's out.
If he doesn't meet every date for completion on the initial plan we laid out, he's out.

If your daughter came to you and told you she had walked in your shoes with the EXACT details of your life with WH, what would you advice her now? I don't for one minute think you would tell her to stay for another round through the meat grinder because what if WH does X or what if WH does Y. You have repeatedly posted that you "know" all the negatives in your situation yet you then turn around and say you need to know so you know. WHAT?

That is dangerous thinking, Al...destroyed people don't need to be destroyed further because they need to know that chance #235 is what is needed because maybe the other 234 times they didn't do something right or better.

Acceptance is hard. It is easier to turn away from it. We are all guilty of turning away to various degrees...that is why we struggle.


Try this:

Whether you can come to see that and change it...that's the big question here.

And not just out of the house right? He'll be out of your life. You'll enter Plan B, right? I will be available as IM if needed.

The saddest reality of this is that he will most likely break one of these boundaries that you have just laid out, and possibly quite soon.

Boy, AI, people are being blunt with you, and I think you are hanling it well. It shows you are open to their suggestions. That said, I have to tell you that this was ME last year. Deep down, I knew everyone was right, but I just wasn't ready. I wasn't sure that I had done EVERYTHING I could do to try to bring about a change for the better in our marriage. I wanted to be absolutely sure that I had done everything I could do. What I didn't realize is that the "other stuff" I was doing, trying to do, etc., were his responsibilities. They were also taking their toll on me as ALL my energy was being put into trying to be nice, trying not to "upset him by bringing it up", keeping an eye on his activities, not getting upset at triggers like cell phones with passwords, doing my best to ignore my fears, etc... I wasn't taking care of myself or the children.

Waiting to "make sure" is just delaying the inevitable. The waiting is keeping your husband right where he wants to be b/c you are not going to upset his lifestyle enough for him to have to change.

That is what it boils down to, He has to want to change. He has to see that he is actually going to lose everything if he doesn't willingly make the changes, put the work into it, etc. You can't do the work for him, and I know from experience, that you are going to be doing some of his to "help him." You can't make him love you. You can't make him choose you!! You can't make him choose his family over his addictions!!!! YOU WAITING TO MAKE SURE YOU HAVE DONE EVERYTHING, IS JUST GOING TO ENABLE HIM TO KEEP UP WHAT HE IS DOING. I capped that b/c I wanted to make sure you saw it!!!! YOU CAN"T MAKE HIM CHANGE. Hovering over him, checking up on him, will never work.

You think you are breaking up the family if you leave him. AI, he already did that a long time ago. Don't you see that? You are not breaking up the family, you are saving your family by leaving him. Now, the risk will be that in the end your H won't want to remain married. If that is the case, then you just saved yourelf emotional pain and torture for what, a year, three months? It is THAT pain and torture that will kill you inside. B/c the hope that you have to have to do what you are doing, is exactly what I had and what enabled me to stay in it.

I am worse off than ever. I don't even know who I am anymore. I feel immense guilt because these last two years have been torture for my children. I should have left my H. He is lazy emotioanlly too and just cannot really connect emotionally or intimately.

The best course is to leave your H, make him work his butt off to earn you back. He needs to be working towards getting back hom, otherwise there is no reason for him to change. His working on his issues, being a better man, trying to recover his marriage will work so much better if he is doing so on his own an of his own free will. Otherwise, you are being a crutch and enabling his laziness and selfish choices.

I see that now. Make him work for you, work for your marriage, work for your family, otherwise, he will never be what you or your children need. This will really destroy the children.