Okay night owls...<P>My W is having/had what I consider an emotional affair with the husband of her "best friend". Relationship may have turned physical -- at least very close to turning physical. Both families have kids (2 each), former schoolmates that remain buddies. <P>Other friends of my W think "I'm nuts" and support her. Support apparently also comes from OM's wife -- her so called "best friend". My W continues to explain that it was "only a friendship", and that throughout her life she's had many other male friends. Evidence (e-mails, more often than norm phone calls, gifts, etc) suggest affair. (I know the problems with other sex "friendships" -- no need to explain. I already agree.)<P>Confused? So am I. <P>I'm looking for some first hand experiences from others to help me deal with this. Looking for help in <BR>1. How to deal with having her totally breakoff contact with om AND his W. <BR>2. Dealing with my kids that seem to be in a state of withdrawl from this OM. My 12 year old daughter even refered to him a while back as "her other father" -- UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And, I'm VERY active in my kid's lives (school, athletics, etc).<BR>3. Trying to decide if going to OM's W would just further aggrivate the situation. She is "best friends" after all.<P>Important note: I already confronted the OM at his home. Told him to breakoff contact with my W and kids. And, if I found out regarding an affair that I'd kill him. Not a wise move in hindsight! Major LB's.<P>4. And, anything else any "first handers" wish to share.<P>My current strategy is Plan Aing. I'm trying to stay positive, non-threatening, and follow suggestions to be patient and create a "safe haven" for my W. Currently in joint counseling, although no sessions in last few weeks. Just now starting to communicate outside of sessions with some meaningful conversation.<P>Okay, gang, go to work. Thanks for your help in advance.<P>-- keystone<p>[This message has been edited by keystone (edited November 03, 1999).]

Hi Keystone<P>I have first hand experiance of this my H had an emotional affair (they both say no sex took place but I don't know that I believe that, they had time and place and motive) with his best friends wife. This lasted for plus minus 1 year (they first said 6 months but now the truth has come out)<BR>I always suspected some thing was wrong because, they laughed and giggled so much when we all together and excluded everyone else from the conversation played games with each other had pillow fights, he bought her a chocolate every time he went there with out me(he never bought me any choclates in 4 1/2 years!) he said he felt sorry for her, they phoned one another more that he and his friend did etc (this o.w. lives a block away from us in the next street) they were always in the kitchen alone at every oppertunity and I drove past their house a few times to find my H car there (after he had told me he was going to the shop etc, so he lied people who lie have some thing to hide was my way of thinking) they were caught at dinner by her H one night alone (they have 2 kids boys we have 2 kids girls) Anyway to make a long story short I confronted her she denied everything in tears and wanted to know how I could possably even think that of her as I was her friend I told her with friends like you who needs enemies? I told her H and he said he suspected as much but without concrete proof that some thing was going on he would give his wife the benefit of the doubt (but he also had a big arguement with my H regarding his wife and told H to stay way from her) Once I had found out about H other affair which started right after/during this one (this other one was a full blown physical one) I moved out and told him no more contact with either o.w 1 and her H and no more contact with o.w.2 (physical)the camel as I call her.<BR>He agreed and eventually I moved back home with the kids, we don't see the other couple any more, although the H has dropped by twice just to say hi to H but H says that if this is what it takes to make me better and happy then thats what he will do he sometimes misses his friend but never the o.w. I am happy with the situation as it is now and miss neither of them (o.w. H tried to have an affair with me siad it would make for good revenge just incase they were having it off as he said, but I have no interest in him and I feel that they both are poison to us infact we bumped into them a month ago while shopping and he greated us (H) but o.w. just looked the otherway and did not acknolage us at all which suits me just fine) I hope that might be of some help to you, it worked for us anyway.<P>Keep well<BR>Jenny<P>------------------<BR>Where have all the cowboys gone ?<BR>Paula Cole<P><BR>

Thanks for the post.<P>Were your kids friends? My kids are older, and they were classmates of OM and "best friends" kids. My kids want to see their kids. <P>I think my oldest child (daughter/12 yrs) knows that the root of our current problem has to do with this OM, but doesn't know all the details. I DO know my wife had already had a talk with her about "male friends". My daughter has already asked W if that means her mom and she cannot have any male friends anymore. (This detail as relayed by my wife)<P>Also, my W resents the fact that I would even suspect something going on with "her best friends husband". She even says that her best friend knows that she and her H are firends and that's ok with her.<P>Now, my W also resents the fact that I have damaged her friendships with this couple. She does not yet seem willing to break off contact. That, too, makes it difficult to contact OM's wife with any sort of confidence.<p>[This message has been edited by keystone (edited November 03, 1999).]

Keystone, I think this is a common pattern with people who pretend to be your friend when in all actuallity they are having sex with your spouse. But don't feel alone about the major love busting-I did that when I finally had some kind of evidence to bust on them. I broke plates, threw a chair, and screamed obscenities then went out and bought the biggest bottle of wine I could and drank it all by myself in about 2 hours! (it was almost a jug! ) Not a healthy way to handle the situation at all. Don't do what I did for months after that and beat yourself up for not being "normal"-it's an abnormal situation that your dealing with! Actually my H said that when I was drunk and sprouting off at the mouth I told him a thing or two he really needed to know, like the fact that I did still love him desperately.<BR>Suspicions are weird. I wonder sometimes how much we should believe in our own intuitions. I had thoughts months before this confrontation that something was up but couldn't confront them. And then on top of that I felt so uncomfortable for soooo long. I kept telling myself not to believe in my intuition but I should have. I think the difference between you and I is that I only reacted when I had proof positive. Though he didn't even have to say her name when I confronted him, so I think he suspected that I suspected her too. Either way, they will, if they are having something going on, be extremely cautious as long as they believe you suspect something. I would try to slow down everything. Tell your wife your sorry for not believing in her and you want to spend some quality time. Then go on in plan A. Deposit massive amounts of love in that bank and hold your own ground.<BR>I will be praying for you!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<P><BR>

Thanks, Bren --<P>I think I do have proof positive. E-mails were the most concrete ones, evidence that I could have shared with OM's wife. Unfortunately, in my emotional meltdown, I made a deliberete attempt to erase them off the computer. It was either that, or throw the computer through the wall!<P>E-mails between other sex "friends" don't sign off with phrases like "love" and "I miss you". I even found one that talked re:OM's birthday where my W tells about hoping to spend time with him and how she couldn't wait to give him his birthday gift. This is just a "friendship"??? I don't think so!!! (By the way, did she get me a birthday gift this year?)<P>RE: Suspicions. I had them for a while. I thought that W and OM were growing to close and first approached my W about 2 years ago. Approached her about my concerns on a number of other occassions, trying to be nice, positive, but concerned. Maybe it came off a weak... <P>In hindsight, she said she cutback on her involvement with the OM and his family for me, but felt that I was trying to control her. It also came at a time that I was concerned that she might have a drinking problem (another story). Perhaps she chose to hang her hat on that issue, rather than the OM. Regardles, she failed to completely breakoff contact with OM and his family.<P>The OM and his family were not friends of mine -- just my W and my kids. Never found them particuarlly interesting, although I was always civil and polite. Guess what? -- not any more!<P>-- keystone<p>[This message has been edited by keystone (edited November 03, 1999).]

Keystone, My H had an affair with my best friend. She and her H were our closest friends. Our kids were the same ages and all friends. My youngest (son) was dating their youngest daughter. They all said they had two sets of parents. We used to talk about traveling together and even joked about all 4 of us moving in together after the kids were gone. <P>Initially, I was furious at my husband for ruining our friendship. I blamed him for everything that happened between them. Now I realize that a true friend would never have done the things she did. I do miss them at times.<P>Our kids have pretty much ended their contact. They were all disgusted with what was going on. It's really sad that so many friendships came to an end because of their thoughtless actions. The hardest part for me was that everyone, including her husband blamed me for the end of the friendship. They all said I was overreacting!

Betrayed --<P>Interesting, isn't it? Why is it that we're both being blamed for the impact on the "friendships", yet everyone dodges the obvious issue -- what about the impact on the marriage?!<P>Your kids seemed older than mine. I'm not sure if I should try to explain or avoid the issue. I don't want to talk negatively, but the "why can't we see OM?" talk wears you down. My 12 year old daughter knows some of the elements. I'm not sure if I should fill in the blanks. My young son is just paniced that we'll get a divorce. <P>Trying to stay positive and hope/pray for the best.<P>-- keystone<P><p>[This message has been edited by keystone (edited November 03, 1999).]

Keystone,<P>I wish I had some wonderful words of wisdom here for you, but I really don't. I just wanted to offer my support because you have been so interested and supportive of me.<P>I did know of a similar situation among friends. I know that eventually it all came out. It was obvious it was not a normal couples relationship. You could tell that one H and the others W were the "closer friendship". They did both have kids, 3 boys, that were really close friends. After the affair was discovered they tried to keep the friendship for a while, but eventually they realized that it was not possible. The children did not stay friends either. After the truth came out it was painful and awkward to take and pick them up from each other's houses. <P>I think the bottom line is...regardless of the relationship whether it be friendship, emotional affair, or physical affair, if our spouse is uncomfortable or feels threatened in any way, it is wrong. In a good caring marriage our spouse and his happiness and well being is to be our main priority.<P>But, I have no real advice to offer. Just like you tell me.....chin up and hang in there. I can tell you are a wonderful devoted husband and hopefully you wife will wake up and realize what she is missing out on. Best wishes and prayers.

Boy can I relate to this one! My H and my best friend had a 2 -3 yr long EA. Her H knew about it at one point and between him, OW and my H they talked it out and decided not tell me. Well of course since we were seeing each other about 2 -3 times a week it started up again and her H was either too stupid , blind or just naive to see it happening. I suspected but had no proof and like Jenny when I confronted her just about spending too much time together not even thinking it was actually an affair the tables were turned and I was not being a good friend to her for even suggesting there was a problem.<P>After it all came out, (I finally just point blank asked H and he was ready to spill it), she begged him to run off with her and work out the details later. Luckily he stood firm and went to our Pastor for couseling and I tried to be understanding and took some responsiblity for our relationship problems. We both knew we weren't meeting each others emotional needs for whatever reasons and it became a vicious circle, no excuse, just the facts.<P>Anyway... we both have 2 kids, both boys and her youngest and our oldest are the same age and were good friends. They had attended our church periodically but after this happened they decided they wanted to make that their church home. We tried for 6 months to make it work with both couples being there but that's just not the way to go. The only thing she has done since all of this is give me a two sentence apology note on torn out notebook paper (and this only after a counseling session in which she was told she needed to do that). I felt it was very insincere but accepted it none the less. Her actions since then have shown no remorse or regret and she certainly appears to have no regard for my feelings. She started out sitting on the other side of the church but has slowly moved closer and closer and now sits within a couple of pews. Her H works on Sunday mornings so she attends with the children and has a few friends she might sit with. I could give you enough examples of inconsiderate behavior but I'll spare you (unless you ask).We let the kids continue to sit together in church but no contact other than that (they don't go to the same school). We put call block so they couldn't call our house (they didn't put the same restrictions on their kids)but OW let her kids use the cell phone to get around call block.Amazing?<BR>Needless to say we weren't able to focus while this was going on so we have left the church we attended for 20 years and have faithfully served. the kids are pretty torn up about it, it's the only church they know.<P>We finally had to sit them down and be pretty frank about everything. OW told her kids from the beginning and they in turn told ours so they've known there was a problem for the last 6 mos. We were trying to be mature and not trash the other couple but when our 12 yr old started taking blame out on his dad I had to step in and explain how daddy wasn't alone in all this.<P>I don't miss the friendship with them at all now, I don't even look at it like it was a friendship it was a farce. She really took the private things I told her and used them to further her love bank with my H. The hardest thing is watching my kids suffer and the next hardest thing is knowing that she doesn't even feel bad for what happened. She claims she was depressed so she was a victim. Funny, I kinda though I was the victim.<BR>We are hoping that leaving the church will either force her to get serious about why she's there and do what's right or just leave.Either way my kids will wear the scars.<P>I have babbled on for so long I can't even remember what your initial question was but I do know you really need to cut all ties. Work on your marriage without any of that extra baggage. The kids will suffer but not nearly as much as they would if this doesn't get fixed NOW! Do the surgery so the healing can begin it's worth it. <P>LF<BR>"Nothing binds us together like a promise kept, nothing divides us like a promise broken"<BR>

My advise, if it looks like, smells like, feels like and affair, IT IS!! My h had a year long affair with my best friend. I confronted him on several occassions talked to her and she said with tears in her eyes "why would people think that I would have an affair?" Well, because she would! She and her family were very intertwined with mine. Kids were best friends, husbands golfed together, we did things all together on weekends, etc. They did move away the day before my h confessed, thankfully! I truely believe that the only way to make it through this is to cut off complete contact. Move if you have to. There are other jobs elsewhere!!! Then go into a very strong plan A. Chances are your wife is going to deny this until she is at the breaking point. Who knows where that will be. This is a very difficult situation, because as you cause waves, you will be the bad guy. I was the one that was controlling, paranoid, etc. Read the book Surviving an Affair by Harley. It goes over all of the things like that. When I read it it was like this is my life. I said that to my h and he said maybe we should just throw the book away! I read it, he didn't. <P>Also typically, you will be the one to want to work on your marriage and your spouse will do nothing. This has been the hard thing for me to swallow. I didn't create this, just inherited it! Oh well. can't dwell on that, or no one would be working on our marriage. Good luck. Cut off all contact with the other family. THis will be tough and withdrawal for your wife will be awful for both of you. Now all the hard work begins Oh, by the way, my h and I are 4 1/2 mo. since discovery and are finally doing better so there is hope.

First, thanks to all who replied. It's nice to know that you're no alone in these situations.<P>Susan -- Thanks for the response. The tough thing right now is trying to get my wife to understand that she was/is in an emotional affair. All she sees is a "friendship" -- at least that she'd admit to at this time. She has to understand that it's as damaging as a physical affair, maybe more so since it's not so "cut and dried".<P>P.S. -- How's your day going? <P>D & W -- Too scary with the similarities. I responded to a thread of yours yesterday. <P>It's amazing to think that "best friends" would act this way toward each other. One of the most amazing things was the obvious change in how my W refered to this couple. Lets call them "Jane" and "John". Originally, my W refered to them as "Jane and John". It wasn't until the last couple of years that they were refered to as "John and Jane". When have you refered to the spouse of YOUR best friend first??<P>Kids are still close, but haven't seen each other lately as much as months ago. No longer go to same school, although live in same general area. I hear that OM's kids overheard my "threat" when I confronted him,. If that is true, it wasn't deliberate on my part. But, if it is true, then my kids have/will find out. I don't want to include them on the details -- I don't want them to choose sides in this issue -- but I also don't want them to get "slanted facts" from OM's family. It's my latest delima.<P>Also, re: "victims". I find it so amazing that everyone is so pissed that "friendships" were destroyed, but somehow overlook the fact the one or two marriages may have also been destroyed. And, I'm the one whos guilty!!!<P>Derby -- I'm convinced it's an affair. My W isn't. I will go to my grave WANTING to explain hows and whys to her, but it's not going to provide any sort of supportive environment towards our repairing the marriage. As much as I want answers, apologies, acknowledgements, I'm starting to believe that they'll never come. And, no remorse. But, Sheba (o, wise Sheba -- fellow MB poster) convinced me that patience and support are the way. I'm trying real hard with her strategy.<P>I'd love to see a total cutoff from the OM and his family. Again, the kids issue. Further, my W has a circle of very close friends. Many go back to school connections and involve many families who have lived in the area for years. It's gonna be real difficult to see this through. I cannot move since my career is specific and based in So Cal. Delima #2, I guess.<P>I'll check into the book, too. Thanks.<P>-- keystone

Keystone, you are right, my kids are older than yours, so it was easier for them to make their own decisions. Her daughter once asked me why her mom was crying when I was talking to her. Initially, I just told her that my H and I were having some problems and her Mom was taking his side instead of mine, and I was upset 'cause women should stick together. I was trying to convince myself that nothing was going on between them and we could preserve the friendship, but my kids were the ones that confronted me. My son saw him rubbing her thigh one night when we were visiting. He was so disgusted and angry at me because he knew I saw it too but didn't say anything. I was trying not to make a scene in front of the kids. I didn't realize they also saw them. Her daughter also overheard (listened in) on a phone conversation they had and told my daughter about it. After that, there was no denying it. I confronted, he confessed! The kids were angry at me for not ending the friendship sooner. All the adults thought I over reacted! I think the kids have better judgement!

Betrayed --<P>Amazing that the adults think you and I both overreacted, isn't it?<P>I am still worried about what to tell my kids -- maybe the subject of a future thread. They're still young, I don't want to undermine anybody, but I don't want them swayed by stories that the OM's kids may tell them. Also, at their age, and with their concerns re ur marriage, their ears have suddenly gotten VERY LARGE. They hear, or think they hear almost everything.<P>--keystone

Sorry... Didn't know how I got the "red face" icon there!<BR>-- keystone

keystone, <P>You are in a tough spot. I have come to believe that emotional affairs are insidious monsters. When the affair does become physical; it is completly obvious to all that a wrong was committed. Up to that point though, it is "just" a friendship. <P>If you confront, you are controlling, paranoid, and the all around bad guy as others have stated. Of course your wife isn't going to state that she is having an affair if nothing physical has happened. Those in an Emotional Affair rarely realize the damage and pain they inflict on their spouse. <P>You have every right to be suspicious. I deciphered my wife's email account and found hundreds of messages between her and the OM. The affair unfolded right before my eyes in print. It started as a casual friendship. Then the emails became more personal. The OM was nervious his wife would find out so he started using several different secret accounts. There were plenty of "I miss you", "I need you", "I have to see you", "I thinking only of you", and then it got worse (don't want to go there ). <P>Breaking the emotional bond betwen them is a BIG problem. In my case, the OM would just as soon forget about my wife but she continues to hang on to the friendship. Ultimately, the decision to end the relationship has to come from your wife. You can help break the bond by depositing loads of love units into your wife's bank. With enough she may start to feel "guilty" about her relationship to the OM. <P>I do suggest you be very careful about confrontation unless you have very concrete details about something physical in nature or out right lies. Confronting without details will only backfire and withdraw bunches of your hard earned love deposits. <P>Keystone, my heart goes out to you. Pray for your wife. Pray that the bond between her and the OM will be severed. You may never get your wife to admit to an affair. She may never realize the hurt she has/is causing you. But, YOU will be made stronger through this. <P>I no longer have any regrets on how I cherish my wife. I give her my best all the time now. That is all we can do - give it our best. Our marriage is better. The scars will always be there. You have to give it an incredible amount of time with a lifelong Plan A and hopefully your wife will see you as the only man of her dreams. <P>God Bless, <P>SHA

SHA --<P>Thanks for the reply.<P>Unfortunatly, the confrontation with the OM has already come. If I had only known about the forum before that afternoon, it would have made a difference, but cannot dwell in the past.<P>I am now walking the fine line between trying to be patient, but show my interest. Between showing support, yet not seem overbearing or controling. It ain't easy.<P>The issue then shifts to my kids. What should they know, when and who should tell them. I've been thinking today that the best approach is maintain what I've done to date: Suggest that their mom and dad are having some disagreements. Like friend that have an arguement, we're trying to become friends again. No need to get into the details of the OM and his family unless I hear that OM or his kids introduced the topic.<P>-- keystone