I say POJA SF ** every night **. If you can both be enthusiastic then do it. I bet in the past month there were more then a few nights you both would have been up for it but it did not happen. POJA SF every night and no opportunity will be missed. He might even learn that you are not actually up for it every night. Or that some nights you just want a quickie or oral or a massage first. It could go any where with brain storming. Use it to get things started.

Because you want your marriage to be wonderful!

This is it. It has been two years. Give him his chance to succeed. Be his biggest fan. Do not beat him down any more. Do not make him prove himself alone. Put in an equal effort and you two will go a long way. Even if neither of you is trying as hard as you did at your best. Stop judging him as inadequate until you hand him plan D.

I have given him a LOT of chances to succeed. He has made a choice not to. I cannot control his choices and will not take responsibility for his lack of action. Recovery does not require me to be his cheering section.

I am NOT his biggest fan and do not think it O&H to pretend to be. If I told him I was proud of his work in recovery, or any other such lie, he would see right through it. It would destroy his trust in any other kind of admiration.

I do not beat him down anymore. My not telling him I am proud of him in this way, not cheering him on, does not equate to 'beating him down.'

I do not make him prove himself alone, because I am working to prove myself right along side him. WITHOUT HIM CHEERING ME ON. I am doing it on my own, with no RL support, and certainly no support from him. He has never told ME he is proud of ME for staying, for working on recovery, for anything in regards to this. Yet here I am, trudging along. Would admiration be nice? Sure, and hopefully some day he will give it when he admires me for something. But it is my choice whether I work recovery or not, with or without his admiration for it.

I already put in MORE of an effort.

I judge his actions as inadequate...because they are.

Recovery is tough. It is work. I am not trying to sound harsh to H, but I have put a boatload of energy into recovery that he, the WS, has not. I am not going to pat him on the back for the minimal effort he has made. It is not my job to cheer him on and build him up and make him feel good about himself, when he has spent a long marriage of behaving in ways that are not admirable.

I read on someone's thread about admiration recently. I think it might have been SunnyD's. She said sometimes she is crabby because she wants her H to admire her, then she realizes that she hasn't been doing things to be admired for. (Or something like that, sorry if I completely misqouted you SD). That's the theory I go by right now. Admiration is my #2 need. Is it met? Nope. Am I doing things to be admired for? Some, yes. But I too was a WS, I had an RA, I lied and deceived and I have some sins to atone for, some just compensation to make. Admiration has to be EARNED right now, I cannot expect H to just willy nilly give it to me. If the house is a mess, should I expect him to admire my DS? Nope. Even if I worked a couple hours and the house is still a mess (trust me, its possible round these parts), I would not expect him to come in and tell me how great it looks. Because it doesn't. Earned. Through action.

You ARE doing good. In many things. The ONE thing that NG brought up as constructive crticism is that sometimes you are a little sensitive to constructive criticism. Advice re DS or SF has sometimes seen you respond badly by calling yourself a bad homemaker or as unfeminine because you like SF - that's not OUR criticism - its YOU!

So instead of 'throwing in the towel' comments or 'I feel awful' how about 'good tip, I'll try to avoid doing that'

Its your high admiration need. (I have one too). It makes you sensitive to criticism.

Now to something you ARE doing well. Having less sex feels like failure, but you are having MORE mutually enthusiastic sex. That's great!

Going without as much SF is a sacrifice but as long as you make it clear this a short term sacrifice and that you expect continual POJA to increase SF, you're on track.

I don't think you are finding the level of coyness to be an enthusiastic solution for you, so I would go back to the POJA drawing board with that one. Is there any flirting etc he would be OK with?

It sounds like you are finding your feet with POJA, so just keep up the good work and build on this recent success of achieving more enthusiastic SF than you've ever had before. Build up from it.

And expose to your families for goodness sake!

This explains a lot of the resentment in your thread. Recovery is not recovery without exposure. Its a dirty secret that you feel resentful for having to keep or do. You're not proud of fighting for your marriage.

That's a problem.

So SF 3-5 times a week over 13 years is a poor effort??

Should you hold a gun to his head a say "You must DESIRE me more!!!" is that the way it works?

Then cut him loose.


Stop doing it on your own. That does not make you the heroin. You cannot recover on your own. Tell him you need him and that you cannot make your marriage wonderful without him. If he doesn't care... cut him loose.


Admiration is at the top of your list then help him. Tell him every day you need to hear that he appreciated your efforts. Not in a demanding way. In a vulnerable way. You need to know he appreciates you.



And he likely feels that you always will. Your judgement is relentless and there is no evidence he will ever be adequate so he cannot hope for wonderful. Removing Love Busters is the first step in surviving and affair. It is necessary for recovery.

If you worked a couple hours on the house and one room is clean and the rest of the house was a mess, YES he should tell you it looks great. Heck, if the whole house was a mess but you cleaned the dishes he should tell say thank you. If you made dinner but the dishes were piled in the sink (and mail was piled on the table between your plates) he should thank you for dinner.

No you do not have to get it all just right for him to appreciate that you have done one thing!

I have diarrhea of the mouth, or hands in this matter. When I feel like a bad homemaker, or unfeminine, or like throwing in the towel, or whatever negative thing is running through my mind at any given time, out it comes. I don't mean to seem sensitive to criticism. I do let it affect me in the short term, but I quickly get over it and move on to take and implement it.

I wouldn't say the couple times we have had sex have been amazing. I mean, I am getting so hung up on my every single move regarding sex, our encounters, although H has been more enthusiastic about them, have been not as satisfying I would say. So I don't see that as a win.

What is a short term sacrifice? How short is short term? Because, ya know, its been a month.

I guess my complaint against the flirting, instigating, etc. is that now everything seems like its on his terms. If he is in the mood for flirting, he will try and flirt with me and then do I flirt back? Whereas when I am in the mood to flirt, and he is not, then it is an 'expectation' or being assertive or a demand. So I feel like everything is based on HIM and what he wants, when he wants it, etc. Like I said, makes me feel like a begger who is just waiting for him to throw me a bone.

It is hard for me to have him keep MBing me too. He will say 'love buster' when I crack a joke, 'dj' when I try and express myself about something (sometimes he's right and sometimes I don't think he is), or 'demand' when I say or do anything flirty or sexual. I am walking on egg shells here. I am to the point with SF that I do not feel comfortable doing ANYTHING that is flirty, or sexual, in any way. Today he was trying to flirt with me on text, and its like I lost the ability to flirt. I am the flirt MASTER and I couldn't even think of what to say. Deer in headlights is a great way to say it, I am second guessing everything I do and therefore I don't know how to respond. Nothing is natural and nothing seems right. So I just said something dumb and that was over in a flash. I'm sure it seemed like I shot him down, and I guess I kindof did, and I don't know if that is the right thing to do or not I didn't even know how to handle it.

I def do not feel like I am making any great strides here Indie.

You were right about the admiration comment, UW. It was posted on Letty's thread but I was the author. And... you got the jist of it right!

Here's what I said:

"An example of projection: I was feeling H wasn't meeting my need for admiration one day. When I analyzed it, I was actually upset with myself: I hadn't put my best foot forward for a few days and I wanted him to admire me anyway. It doesn't work that way. It wasn't like he was a jerk, or wasn't meeting other needs, but why on earth should he "admire" me in an area where we both knew I was skating? If a child procrastinates on a school project, does the bare minimum, and gets a C+ - do you give the kid a pat on the back? He or she may get upset with you for your indifferent reaction, but inwardly he/she has to know where the fault lies."

And ya, there won't be any family exposure going on. Don't know what the POJA theory on exposure is, but I can guarantee you H would NOT POJA any kind of exposure. I don't think to date he has told a single person. Only one of his friends knows, and that is because he used to be a good friend of mine. And the day after DDay I was still at home throwing up and he texted me to ask me if I was OK, and I texted back "I have the justfoundoutyourhusbandcheated flu. I'll be fine." So, that was my minimal exposure to his friends.

His family would be very very difficult to deal with, for me, if we exposed to them. They would blame it on me and treat me like dirt. I don't need that.

Yup. Thoughtful request that you need it and would like him to find ways to express it enthusiastically and honestly.

Even if you want it spontaneously and unasked for. You're at the bottom of the hill and need to speak up as to the routes that will take you to the top.

We have not consistently had SF 3-5 times a week. That is best case scenario, I would say when I am making selfish demands. If he is left to decide on his own, it would be a lot less than that (and has been). Which is why now, while I am not instigating, it is down to once a week.

And no that is not the way it works. I am not sure what your line of questioning is here JB.

Just wanted to clarify .... I agree with the concept, however, that you CAN be admired for "partial credit" even if you fall a bit short in some areas. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

This, to me, is a HUGE problem. It's not fair if he's throwing MB terms at you to punish you, while not practicing them himself. Heck, I don't even think he can use the terms correctly if he hasn't put them into practice enough to really KNOW them: their purpose, their essence, etc...

That is not the MB Plan. That is Plan Unwritten. Exposure is not POJAd it is part of the non-negotiable recovery conditions. Ideally you should have done it after Ddaay without alerting him.

Since you are in recovery and repentant, he should have no problem facing the music. A huge red flag if he is not.

It sounds like he has skipped a huge consequence if he has not told anyone in his life at all.

And if his family are so awful and would be unsupportive of recovery then I assume he would simply cut all contact with them and only keep supporters of the marriage in his life.

UW, I am a guy...I think I told you earlier that we are simple creatures and easily confused.

Did you hear that? Let me say it again 'we are simple creatures easily confused'.

You are confusing the HECK out of me.

You want to flirt...then he flirts...you deny... he wants to have a quickie or two or three...you deny.

See the pattern here? No wonder he might feel he can never please you. Are you hard to please? Are you giving him mixed signals all over the place?

Seems to me the answer is yes. He can't read your mind! I think he is confused as hell.

Did I say we are easily confused? I think I did. How bout keeping it simple for a change?

The higher the expectations you put on him (consciously or subconsciously) the further you are going to push him away. �you will never get what you want and need.

No guy wants to have a mountain of pressure on him to �perform� a certain way. We want things to be natural and not FORCED.

Relax, take it easy�have fun�stop obsessing on this�ease up a bit. That is what would motivate me to feel more sexual to my W�for sure.

THAT is the Gospel.


Ease up. You are doing fine.

I was not an MBer after DDay, and I did not know about exposure. I did an exposure to a handful of my own close friends, but not to anyone on H's side.

He has skipped a huge consequence.

I have thought long and hard about exposure. I have weighed the pros and cons. I just feel like the cons in our situation outweigh the pros. I am not trying to kill an affair. I am not trying to gain immediate support during a Plan A or Plan B. I know there will be several family members who will NOT support us, and yes of course we could just cut them out of our life but how realistic is that, H's parents who are GREAT grandparents and who my kids love. My kids should lose their grandparents because of all of this? One more loss in a sea of losses.

Not to mention that even if he made the decision to cut his family out of his life, and I won't speak for him to say whether he would or wouldn't, it would be very hard for him emotionally and I am guessing would cause added turmoil to our M.

And the pro? Outing him of a decade old affair, that I have already known about for over 2 yrs. Making him accountable to...people who won't hold him accountable.

Like I've said, I've weighed it. I've decided exposure at this point has more cons than pros.

What? I'm confused.

No really, you aren't the only one.

Lets get this straight though. I have been a master of flirtation and have NEVER turned down a quickie before. This whole mixed signal, turning down sex, etc. has happened in the last month after taking advice to not be so aggressive, assertive, demanding, to let T Rex 'hunt', you get the picture. Play hard to get. And my own attempt to change my behavior and habits (of wanting sex all the time and making sure H knew that) and my own confusion over what that all means (what DOES that mean, I still don't know).

So, its not like this is the standard quo for our relationship.

Trust me when I say there has been NOTHING confusing about what I wanted for the last 15 yrs.

I am neither hard to please, nor have I given him mixed signals prior to the TRex angle. There has been ONE signal. It was GREEN. Can't get much less complicated than that.

I wouldn't say there is an expectation on him AT ALL anymore. The expectation WAS that, well, we have sex. The expectation now is NOTHING. That, is the goal here, I guess.

I feel like the mountain of pressure is on ME to perform a certain way, flirt but not too much, instigate but don't expect, etc. And I want things to be natural and not forced. They feel quite the opposite right now.

Relaxing, doing things natural, having fun...that seems to be what got me into this mess in the first place.