I dont mind this kind of response from a BS in the short term. It could just be the vestiges of resentment. It'll disappear if he's doing POJA right. Long term though that wont work and he knows it.

You have a deadline for recovery too. An internal clock for when you will have to pull out before your lovebank tank dries up. All women have a slight lack of endurance for Plan A, even the WS version, and eventuallly we reach a point where it is just more graceful to just step back and let the H make his decision. It is respectful to do that. Its more irresponsible to let the tank run dry, or force him to fill it. He has every right to go if he cant do it.

I wouldnt worry about it, make a big deal about it, just keep in mind that you are giving things a chance for as long as you can responsibly maintain a lovebank for him and doing a wonderful job. I think so anyway.

In a way its a good thing that he wont settle for less and let his giver rule the show. But neither will you, of course. Neither of you should let givers rule the show.

I think Steve is guiding you well, it's just that resentment is causing a bumpy ride. You have to hang on in the short term, honey.

Yeah it is a DJ, because it's his choice. However much you or I believe in MB, or in the vets here we cant force that view on others or on our spouses. We can only set our own boundaries and let others do the same. I personally wouldnt settle for less than an MB marriage, so if my H or a future fiance didnt get on board, I'd have to let the whole thing go while respecting their views as I waved them off fondly.

A non MB marriage wont work. So if he's saying he must have independent behaviour he's giving you a choice between splitting up now or splitting up later.

Of course, let's give him a chance to get over his resentment and start enjoying the benefits of POJA before we take that as his permanent view, but he IS entitled to the permanent view that he can have IB. He can go somewhere else and have it.

It's just that I would take the option of splitting up now. After giving him a lengthy opportunity to get over resentment while doing a stellar Plan A.

If the 'maybe we should break up'/MWSBU conversation comes up again, I would just shrug, say 'hope not' and carry on with the EN meeting and avoiding LBs, including SDs like pressing him to accept MB. ITS HIS CHOICE.

A lack of response to MWSBU on your part achieves two things 1) It stops him from feeling pressured to do things your way 2) It prevents him from indulging in saying it, because it doenst achieve much response from you. If he knows he's allowed to leave whenever, he may feel he no longer has to remind you of the fact. ITS HIS CHOICE. It always was.

You know it, and are still EN meeting.

Stellar Plan Aing allows freedom of choice.

Good job with miss texter too. Even if she had barely been verging on inappropriate behaviour, its caring and responsible to protect what you love.

I've been thinking about this the past few days. I guess I just feel confused. I almost feel like the things that I want in my life and our marriage, would make H unhappy, and therefore are selfish on my part. One of the things I've wanted for the longest time, I think I even verbalized it before we were married- if not, I at least thought it- But I just want the relationship to be the most important thing, not the location the relationship is in. I mean, sure- everyone has preferences on different geographical locations and weather, but I guess I just feel like life is what you make out of it, and if you really love someone it shouldn't matter where you live.

I just don't know if I'll ever be able to shake the belief that my H will not be happy unless he is living in a certain location able to do certain things. I don't know if I will ever be enough for him. I don't feel that our relationship ever was or will be enough.

I somewhat feel like this goes past just the normal resentment on his part, b/c it's not new. Maybe the resentment is causing him to not want to do anything about it, but my gut feeling is that it's just who he is/what he wants.

I guess I feel selfish and/or needy. I feel like I'm expecting too much or wanting too much out of him/our marriage.

I know that recovery from the A's hinges on adherence to all of the MB steps, so technically we can't recover from the A's if everything isn't being followed, but I guess I feel like (from my conversations from him) that we can recover from the A itself, but the other issues in our relationship will be our downfall. Not sure if that makes sense.

We talk with Steve again tomorrow, and I just filled out the love bank inventory that we have to do before each session, and I just feel like the numbers get lower and less positive. I feel very conflicted about how I feel about H. I love him, and I want to be with him, I want to have a family with him, but sometimes I wonder if we are trying to hold on to something that never should've happened in the first place. I feel pretty positive about H right now, b/c he's done a rather good job of taking care of me after my surgery. But I wonder if he'd be so loving and willing to help me, if I hadn't been okay with him leaving and climbing/biking for a lot of the time. He took two weeks off from work to help me, although I suspect he took the second week off, to make time for some activities that he had planned and probably would've been really pissed/frustrated with me if I wanted him to actually stay with me the whole time. As it is right now, he's spent quite a lot of time doing other stuff. I know we will get plenty of UA time these two weeks, so I don't mind it- I would feel really guilty if I had kept him hanging out with me inside for two weeks...but it just makes me wonder and think.


I was listening to some of the MB radio clips, and especially that one about pilots that BH posted. that's another thing- do I think we CAN have a good marriage with no more A's if he's still gone, yes...but i think it will be WAY harder. I know how I feel when he leaves for a few days and then comes back...I hate it. So I feel like I basically want him to put me first, quit his job, make me more important than all of the other stuff he wants to do. I feel like a selfish needy woman.

And what happens if my lovebank runs out before the two years Dr. H recommends to try for recovery? I read WPG's story and how long she stuck it out, but then I know her situation is quite a bit different than ours, being they had quite a longer shared history and have children.

You'll know. If you get tempted to lovebust a lot, reach out for guidance.

Your insistence the relationship come first and his insistence his activities do, are two separate POV that will be united in POJA. Both of you must find a win-win solution where neither is unhappy.

It won't make either of you unhappy to POJA. But it is highly uncomfortable to the unpracticed.

Practice! On the little stuff, first. Until it stops being difficult and becomes easy.

Plus, keep in mind that your H is prob a little resentful about having difficult work to do/give up anything as the 'innocent party' just smile and encourage him on. He knows its stuff we all have to do, but sometimes he will feel a bit miffed. Its natural.

I've been thinking about this the past few days. I guess I just feel confused. I almost feel like the things that I want in my life and our marriage, would make H unhappy,

Well, I'm the one that first cracked open this can of worms, so I better start fishing!

All of us have wants, goals and environments that satisfy us more than others. The EN's we exchange with our spouses are not provided/realized in a sterile vacuum. They are instead elements that, though they complement and define our daily lives, are also complemented and defined by our lives.

But as long as they are defined as "needs", they cannot safely be left unfilled or suppressed. The tension in such a restrictive system is not healthy, and will damage either the suppressing spouse, the relationship, or both.

You and your husband will do well to be radically honest with your EN revelations. There can be no thoughts of "Well, spouse can't supply that, so I'll not raise it"

Once you and he have the lists in hand, then it becomes a question of devising methods of satisfying them. But ignoring them as impossible cannot work. How many thousands of stories do we have here to prove that little truism?

And be specific in providing examples of what those needs represent. My bride revealed a need for safety and security, which I "knew" I had attended to. She then told me I had failed to satisfy her need in this matter for years by NOT religiously wearing a seatbelt while driving. She told me that every time I drove off, she was worried that I'd not return.

I feel like I basically want him to put me first, quit his job, make me more important than all of the other stuff he wants to do. I feel like a selfish needy woman.

You're no more "needy" than any of us. If you can voice those exact feelings to your husband, you'll at least be giving him a chance to work with you to devise a solution. Remember:

There can be no thoughts of "Well, spouse can't supply that, so I'll not raise it"

We talked with Steve on friday morning, and I went into it pretty hopeless and despondent. I just didn't see how it could work, and even when steve is talking to us both about not doing activities that take away from your relationship/marriage, I can just see the look on my H's face.

I talked to Steve individually about how I felt like giving up, maybe we were just fundamentally incapable of meeting each other's EN's. I told him the story,a year or so ago when I told H that I wasn't going to rock climb anymore, mainly b/c he had made me so miserable whenever we did it, his response to me was that 'maybe we shouldn't be together'.

Steve asked me if it would've been different if H's response had been, 'okay, let's come up with something else to do', and of course it would've been.

In true Steve fashion, somehow he made me see/realize/gave me hope that we can overcome this. He said this was something my H (and I) had to learn. If my H didn't learn it with me, he was going to have to learn it with the next person...or the next person. But that it's always better to learn it with the first person.

Talking with my H after, he said he KNOWS that I'm/our marriage is more important, and that he's going to try to do everything to make sure I know we are the first priority. He said that he has the hope that we still be able to do some of the things together that he loves.

Regarding 'not raising' the need. I always knew this was an issue, but it's not exactly the issue you bring up right after DD....so I explained to my H how I had to wait till we were healthier b/c I was afraid of him saying 'screw this'. I feel safe enough to raise all of my EN's now.

H asked me how he can make me feel like I'm good enough, and that I'm/we're more important than anything else, and to be honest, I'm not sure exactly how- (other than not leaving me to go do all this stuff), but Steve is going to help us with all that. I guess Steve told him he needed to sell it better...

I was laying in bed after SF, moaning about how I've got another 4 weeks on crutches and I've gotten so out of shape and I just want to be able to get up and do something..anything. And then I started joking, "I bet you're thinking, 'I want you to get in shape too" because I don't think I've ever made a comment about wanting to be more in shape without him responding in someway that he wants me to be more in shape too. I guess I just started saying it for him, maybe as some sort of deflection.

So I totally wasn't prepared when he responded something to the effect that he loved me just like I was- don't remember the exact words. Whatever it was, it was somewhat shocking and definitely different.

Dodo,

Stay the course and I'm so glad you both are working with Steve.

Thanks BH! Definitely nice to have encouragement from Steve and you.

I'm just gonna assume that you meant "Doro" and not "Dodo"....while I would have to agree I've acted like a dodo in the past.....

So sorry friend. Dang auto correct.

I wonder whom I was telling Dodo too?? LOL

Good for you Doro. It all sounds great. It may seem like you're being selfish, as the WS to raise your own needs like this.

But you just gotta. Its not realistic, honest or responsible to avoid conflict. And your H CAN handle you needing stuff after all!! Imagine that.

Its a rocky road. But you're both tough.

If my H didn't learn it with me, he was going to have to learn it with the next person...or the next person. But that it's always better to learn it with the first person.

This looks like a viable plan is being formulated, DM. Assuming you and FBH can stay on course, you should thrive in the growth of your marital relationship.

I hope your leg heals quickly. (Although, reading this originally on my phone, the phrasing got attenuated as, "I was laying in bed after SF, moaning..." and I almost choked!)

BTW: I'm going to plagiarize Steve's concept quoted above for use in another thread. Don't tell him, okay?

Ha! I guess I should be careful about my word usage. I'm glad you didn't really choke and require the heimlech, I'd feel quite responsible!

just wanted to know I am reading your thread and sending some hugs!

I don't really know what to type right now. I don't feel like it at all. Right now I feel pretty much nothing for H. I don't care what he does, if we spend time together, I don't have any desire for SF- actually the opposite.

First, I guess some backstory that Ill try to condense. When we first met, I had huge boobs, like 32F- nerve injury-backaches- big. When we were dating, my now H called the cow udders. Said he was joking, etc when I was incredibly hurt/mad. About a year into dating I got a breast reduction that insurance covered. I had always wanted a breast reduction, but hadn't gone for it. I think part of the reason I wanted it was bc I knew H didn't love the hugeness, but that was prolly just the catalyst that made me go for it finally.

despite some really mean and hurtful things hes said to me, that comment has always been the Absolute worst one and he knows it. Probably especially bc I was very self conscious. So I got my reduction and they were perfect. Lately in the past few months they've been getting bigger, partly d/t no exercise and partly bc my thyroid is out of whack again.

Anyways, a few nights ago, he made some comment about how maybe they'll get big enough and I'll have cow udders again. I got upset and hurt and he says that he was just joking (I literally could not count the number of times I've told him that it still hurts my feelings when he jokes about stuff). I did not have any AOs, but expressed how much it hurt me he could even say that again, knowing how much he hurt me the first time. (why I didn't break up with him after the first time, I don't know).

So then he gets mad/frustrated at me for being hurt and upset and tells me I'm over reacting. He apologizes, but still thinks I'm being stupid.

I go to work Friday, and then at night we have tickets to go to this film. I was just not very talkative or chipper. I guess I didn't realize how much I had been affected by his words, bc I just wanted to be by myself. Of course then he gets frustrated/upset with me that I'm not in a good mood. (I would say the majority of the time, I'm in a really good mood and am chipper and playful- so I guess when I'm not, it shows. He gets upset and in a bad mood about little things like the house being dusty, and much of the time Im the one trying to cheer him up).

He wants to know what's wrong, I don't want to talk about anything- especially in public, I guess bc he got mad the first time bc I "was over reacting". After film, I TOld him he should have a beer with his friends and I was going home, bc I really just wanted to be alone.

This morning he's asking me what's wrong, etc. I just want to be by myself. I don't want anything to do wih him actually. He was being all nice to me this morning but I feel like he's just sucking up or something.

To me, his words were an absolute sign of lack of respect, and love. It makes me sick. Who would say that to his wife? Already Having said it once before and KNOWING the pain and issues it caused.

And then last night when I was getting ready for bed, and I'm upset and numb and I think "well, I did cheat on him twice, and what he said isn't nearly as bad" but then I wondered how long am I going to put up with stuff like this bc what I did was always worse. And I wonder if maybe I'm just so upset bc Maybe I'm PMSing, or maybe bc I'm so tired and in pain from starting work this week on a knee scooter.

I didn't really feel like posting, but I definitely didn't feel like talking with anyone in real life.

Thank you. You just made me cry..... ive been reading yours too- I just don't post much.

DoroM,

That is not joking. That is abuse. I know, I lived with comments like that, the "jokes", they are not jokes. They are meant to hurt, demean, and destroy you emotionally. It is meant to put you on edge and for him to be able to control you.

Good show on joking equals a love buster.
Radio clip on joking
Segment #2
Segment #3

Tell us what you think.

You motivated me to get out of bed and crutch downstairs so I could listen to it.

I agree that joking is a LB. I figured that out about 4.5 years ago, when we first started dating. He's known for YEARS that it still hurts my feelings when he jokes about me. He tells me that I'm too sensitive, or he wishes I wasn't so sensitive so he could still joke around. At some point in the last two years I have outright told him that I don't want him to joke around about me AT ALL.

But it's just like they said on the show, I feel betrayed. I feel especially betrayed after this last cow udder comment. I used to be able to take a joke- but when that's all you hear, it's really hard to separate 'joke' from truth. And I believe that there is always a little truth in jokes.

He makes me feel worthless. I guess he does it a little less since the A's, but he still does it. I don't know what will get through to him.

You know, after I read your comment I was thinking in my head, "well he's not like that all the time, he's actually really sweet a lot of the time" and then realized that was a typical response. Maybe b/c I look at the situation my friend (that I posted about that you responded to) is in, I see very clearly that the situation she is in, is abuse. But mine is nowhere near as bad. Her H makes my H look like an angel....

I don't know what I'm supposed to do.