When's your next apt with Steve? Did he give you any assignments?

Just heard on the show about how resentment will build if there are unresolved issues and/or someone keeps bringing up mistakes in the past. That is one of the enemies of good conversation.

Dr. H also recommended writing down the issue and ask "have we resolved this"? If yes do not bring it up again. If no, why not? What is keeping this from bring resolved?

We haven't scheduled another appt yet. Will probably see if I can schedule one on tuesday. The assignments he gave us were related to all the RC issues we were having, and I think he told my H to make me know that I am more important than his hobbies (not exactly sure).

I really don't bring up all the past instances of things that he's said, b/c I tell myself that they're in the past and tha'ts not fair- and I understand it's an enemy of good convo. We have had many talks about the issue (joking/disrespect) and he'll say "okay, I will try not to do it" so one would think it's resolved...except he KEEPS doing it. over and over.

So I guess it would be unresolved. He has said a lot that it's 'in his nature to joke around' and 'that's who he is, etc'.

How are we ever supposed to resolve this, when he knows how much it hurts and disrespects me and keeps doing it?

I used to say the same thing...."really sweet alot of the time" or minimize the comment.....that all lead to self doubt, difficulty making decision, questioning myself......the comments became worse and escalated over time. I could always find someone in a worse situation than myself.....and after all i was never hit.....so the continual minimizing.....

Words and comments can be as damaging as a slap or a punch....just no one sees it when they look at you.

Those comments he made to you just really stood out for me. I lived in that cycle.

Doro, you don't have a poor sense of humour and you are not overly sensitive.

I've bashed you around enough on this thread with 2x4s to know your level of sensitivity.

The jokes bother you because you are intelligent and don't like passive aggressive abuse.

Instead of respecting your intelligence enough to speak to you about his PA need, he's chosen to control you with an insult.

Not impressed.

I would say sit down and POJA how he 'jokes' with you, but he's already been told you hate this. I just think you need more confidence in your instincts here so you can confidently say 'no way buddy' if he persists, take a 'listen, buster' approach

DM. I'm responding to your post - your FIRST post.

I'll highlight (lowlight?) some of your story then:

I realized something was wrong, and had a breakdown, and basically was crying, asking him "why he didn't think I was awesomer than he did". While he wasn't outright mean (per se), he was always very negative- maybe in a joking/sarcastic way, and rarely ever said anything nice/positive to me.

I called him crying, begging him to come visit me, I told him our marriage was in trouble, and to please come. He of course had a biking trip planned with his friend and choose that over me.

He had been turning me down for sex basically since we met (after the initial few month honeymoon phase of sex). Came out that he'd been looking at a lot of porn, and apparently wasn't in the mood for me.

For the past four years I've felt demeaned, belittled, unappreciated, unspecial, unatractive, unwanted, judged, etc. But it's all been in a very subtle way.

He actually told me that he wasn't surprised I cheated on him b/c he had treated me crappy.

So after now almost five years, having seen the result of his emotional sadism, he decides this would be a good thing to continue/recommence?

He will either learn appropriate spousal behavior or effectively terminate the basis for your marriage.

You might print this out and hand it to him with my regards. The only thing to add would be that either:

- he clearly is the stupidest SOB on this or any other planet, or

- he, in lieu of having a fullfilling heterosexual marriage, really would rather keep "waxing the bishop" with pornography and bike-riding in company with other males, and this is his cowardly passive aggressive method of telling you.

Ask him to pick just one.

You gave too much before the affairs. Your giver was in the driving seat and instead of assertively and confidently tackling these very serious marriage problems (or divorcing, which was your right) your giver drove you to despair and waywardness. The ultimate in passive aggressive revenge.

Don't repeat that mistake! Not just the wayward part, but passivity is not honourable either as you can see.

Don't let your status as WS let you think you have to take anything abusive passively.

Have you read the 'listen buster' article, which is where I got the phrase I referred to? In it Dr H makes clear it is not acceptable for any spouse, former wayward or not to endure abusiveness passively.

The situation is slightly different to yours. The FBH is not repeating pre-A mistakes like yours, he has decided to use resentment as a punishment. Using the A to get sex on demand.

But Dr H clearly prescribes assertiveness for the problem. He suggests she confidently begin with: 'Listen Buster, do you love me?' And she is to add that she will not endure a marriage that is unromantic and unhappy.

She doesn't leave, or say she is going to leave soon. She just makes it clear it'll happpen.

Mbers don't reveal their timescales. But eventually every woman will leave this sort of situation when their lovebank runs dry. Its inevitable.

Just give him a heads up so he can make an informed choice.

I used to have confidence in my instincts...back in the day. If I didn't like something a guy did that I date, he was out. I guess I fell too hard this time around or something...I don't know.

We talked yesterday a lot. He wanted to know what was bothering me, I told him I didn't want to talk with him if he was going to get angry. He said he wouldn't (and didn't in the slightest). So I told him how much damage that comment had done, and to make it worse, telling me that I was overreacting. I told him that I didn't even really feel like being around him.

We talked for hours. He said that he never intentionally hurts me, and that he thought it was okay to joke about that topic. I asked if it was going to be okay for me to joke about the A's in the future bc they were so far in the past.

Part of me didn't want to spend time with him at all, but I knew that if we didn't spend time together this weekend, it would be the kiss of death, b/c I know how things go when we don't spend time together.

He wanted to go upstairs and cuddle. I said I'd go upstairs, but I knew he wanted SF, and I wasn't ready for that at all. He tried...but I really couldn't handle him touching me then. He got hurt, and I said that I was sorry, but I just couldn't. It was weird, b/c usually I always want SF, but the thought of SF and him touching me, made me want to puke. Maybe the connection with the body comments and SF? I don't know.

We had lots of conversations if we still wanted to keep trying to make our marriage work. He said he did.

Today we took the dog up into the mountains for a picnic. On the way home, I told him very clearly that I was not going to live the rest of my life and be the subject of disrespect/AO/etc. And that if he didn't even want to try to fix it, to let me know. He was pretty quiet. I asked him if anything I said upset him, he said no. He said he was worried about 'messing up' and being 'critiqued' and stuff. I told him that people with much worse cases of both these issues had fixed them and that he needed to finish reading LB's and talk to Steve about how to accomplish this, because if it wasn't taken care of, the only way it was going to end is in divorce....not me cheating again.

Sometimes I think it's your first option....he hasn't watched porn since DDAY#2- haven't asked in a little bit. Maybe he is just dense and stupid, because he keeps telling me that he wants to be married to me, and that he knows I'm more important than all those activities, and that he doesn't ever mean to hurt me by the things he says.

Funny that you posted from my very first post, b/c I thought of that post and some of the stuff I had written about how he treated me, and after this recent stuff, I thought back to that post and how the description still stands for the most part.... I did have a slight thought that maybe I was getting foggy thinking again if I was back there...

I totally see now how it happened. My love tank is so freaking low/possibly empty right now, that I guess I understand that I just did a big 'F-U' with my waywardness. I never felt the way I was being treated was a good basis for divorce. I always felt like maybe I was being too sensitive, or asking too much.
I know exactly what article you're talking about- when you mentioned 'listen buster' yesterday. I think that's what I pretty much said this afternoon. (albeit without the actual words, "listen, buster...") And I really meant it.
The past two days, I've been going back and forth in my head so much of if I even wanted to keep trying, or if I just wanted to quit now. Last night, he had said he was going to sleep on the couch. I told him he should come upstairs, and I went upstairs and got into bed. As I was laying there alone, I thought to myself that I really could care less if he came upstairs, and that if we ended up divorced, I'm glad that I knew I would be okay. He ended up coming upstairs.

I asked him today why he was going to sleep on the couch, and he said it was b/c it hurt him that he knew I was having a hard time being close to him.

I think he genuinely wants to change- I think I may have finally gotten through to him. I think a lot of his actions/joking stuff comes from his family back ground (you should hear some of the stuff his mom 'jokingly' says to her kids). So he has a chance.

As for timelines...I don't even know what it is in my head, so I guess I can't reveal it. Hoping to be able to get in with Steve on Tuesday.

Evidence...pieces of disconnected stories...impressions of events and intentions...Trying to create a sentient narrative about what's going on with him is maddening from way out here.

So what do we have to work with?

An adult male who was subjected to maternal emotional abuse...
A man who prefers to spend time with his male colleagues, doing "manly" things, over having time with his bride....
A man who, in turn, emotionally torments his wife with jokes barbed insults from the beginning of their relationship...
Such barbed insults never being directed at his male associates(?)...
A man who would refuse to relocate to accompany his wife during her studies, preferring to remain in recreation-land with his pals...
A man who would choose to engage in self-generated orgasm, rather than enjoy the SF available with a willing spouse...
A man who would suffer his wife to have a breakdown, rather than cancel a bike trip with his buddy...
A man who, after being cheated on twice by his (now) FWW, was evidently less upset by the betrayal he endured than she was for having inflicted it...
A man who desires nothing from his wife more than her participating in traditionally "male" bonding rituals...
A man who now TWICE has decided to focus his contempt and ridicule on the most obvious and intrinsic of his wife's female attributes...

Gee, I wish I had a bunch of letters after my name, and diplomas on my walls, so I could help solve this enigma. Are you sure there's nothing else you can tell us, DM? Does he perhaps like watching old gladiator movies? Or perhaps, after a hard climb/ride/workout with his similarly buffed-up buds, does he look forward to a good sauna?

Such a conundrum....

I'm really proud of your assertiveness here. If we let our giver ruler the show, we put a weapon into our spouses hands. And a BS is a wailing ball of hurt, so it is NOT a good idea to give them the weapon of absolute power.

His words are still a bit iffy but better. Now the weapon is removed, he may be fine.

What we learn from our parents we can unlearn, if people assertively tell us its not on. And we are willing to listen.

His actions from now on will show you.

As I went through your list I keep thinking that you are being too hard on him, and I feel like I have a lot of "but he also did this nice thing..." to add to everything so he doesn't sound as bad. I think my viewpoint is severely messed up. I really don't even know what to think/believe anymore.

I often wonder if I am giving the whole picture when I write on here, and I'm making him sound worse so I sound better, but I really don't think so. When he read over everything a few days ago, I asked him if he disagreed with anything I said, and he said no. So I will try to help you out.
I guess that would be correct, although I'm sure everyone in his family would call me too sensitive for saying that
He has give up doing lots of 'manly' things so he can spend time with me...and he says he would rather do those manly things with me than them. So I'm not sure if he would prefer them or me.
yes.
Ummm...not sure exactly. I feel like dudes act differently around each other anyway. He has a lot of friends, and most of them are quality people. But I think I may have heard some of his guy friends say that he can be an a-hole...but not a douche bag. Just a jerk sometimes.
Yes.
Yes...for the first 4 years. I think it has gotten a lot better in the past 8 months.
Yes.
No. This, I would disagree with. I broke his heart. It still hurts him immensely, and I can automatically tell, just from looking at him when he is hurting.
I guess I would semi-disagree. I know he would rather do those things with me, but I know he does enjoy other things with me. Just not as much.
Yes.
Um....he DOES like a good sauna...but I am 1390% sure he would rather be in a sauna with me in a bikini than with a dude, if "that's" what your insinuating..... So hey, that's pretty positive, right?! So if it's not that, what's your diagnosis now?

Reading through your post made me really sad. Whenever I think about all the bad stuff in the past, I think that I cheated on him, and he forgave me. And that was the first time I really knew he loved me. And then I cheated on him again. And he is still with me.

I don't know if I'm just being naive, (????) but I think deep down he is a genuinely good person, and a lot of the problem maybe stems from the fact that he's dense and acting stupid. And I always wonder if part of the issue is b/c he's probably never had to work at anything to keep a girl happy b/c girls were always throwing themselves at him b/c he is super hot.

THank you. I feel really good about it actually. Oh how I wish I had found MB before I got married. Or after the first A....

When you say his words are still iffy, what do you mean? Which words are iffy and why?

I was able to get an appt with Steve tomorrow, so I'm very thankful about that.

I am contemplating telling my parents what is going on at the moment. They obviously know about the A's, but they really don't know anything about the rest of our relationship. I think I had told my mom about the porn. But I've never said anything bad about him to them, b/c I didn't want them to think badly or for my dad to hate him. I'm not sure if I should but at the same time, I don't want to blindside them if it turns out badly, either. To be honest, I haven't told many people- I have to my best GF's, but even them, I never told about the cow comment(until today), b/c I was so embarrassed. Thoughts?

Iffy - I don't like that he said he felt critiqued. Spouses should welcome complaints. But he's learning so Ill let him off.

I'm not sure what the MB position is on telling parents things about recovery. I personally tell my mother everything about everything in my life, can't help it.

I suppose they are supporting you, and supporting recovery, so an update is appropriate and they will understand you better.

DM, the majority of what I wrote you agreed with - which works toward attesting to your perspicacity and intelligence.

Here's one disagreement I think you should re-examine:

A man who, after being cheated on twice by his (now) FWW, was evidently less upset by the betrayal he endured than she was for having inflicted it...

No. This, I would disagree with. I broke his heart. It still hurts him immensely, and I can automatically tell, just from looking at him when he is hurting.

Let me make my case...

YOU'RE the one who considered dissolution out of shame and self-hatred that your infidelities brought about.

YOU'RE the one who came here, trying to re-ignite your marital passion as a righteous tool in never letting illicit linkages even start.

YOU'RE the one wondering why he can't make more (any?) effort to match what you've been attempting.

YOU'RE the only one who, familiar with the insidious nature of the cheating impulse, recognized the opening gambits of those other recent female interlopers.

In each instance, FBH's reaction has been muted. I did not say your choices bothered him not at all; I said his hurt was a fraction of your pain.

Let me put this question to you, my friend. A few posts back you alluded to something like "in a few years when we have kids". Do you and he have a plan? If so, in what form? "Someday" is not really a plan. "In three years, when we've bought a new house....." would be a plan. (Remember the five-year development scheme we discussed.)

Ask him what his opinion is on the "progeny project".

When I had surgery a few weeks ago, H came home with a card and a little devotional/inspirational book called "married for life". Just has short little snippets/advice from real life people who've been married for 50+ years. Most days, we read one of the stories together.

Anyway, we were talking on the phone before I was going to bed last night (he was at work), and he wanted me to read one, while on the phone. I found a little card he put in the book for me to find.

In it, he wrote-
"I want to be married for life like those people. Sorry I'm a jerk sometimes. I don't want to love bust you anymore. I promise I'm working on it. I love you - looking forward to spending time with you tomorrow. You are amazing and I want to show you that."

And he is definitely trying- he caught himself in the middle of a DJ and stopped.

We talked to Steve this morning. I'm not sure of everything that Steve told him, but one was 'no teasing me ever'.

We went to the Zoo today, (have to find places with wheelchairs for our activities). We both had a great time, and just that time spent together is making me feel a bit better about things.

Anyway, I think it's positive steps in the right direction?

I thought the BS was entitled to not putting more effort in? And the WS is supposed to do all the work/heavy lifting?

As for the "progeny project".....I have complicated things regarding progeny. Before A- We had talked about waiting for a few years after I had graduated school. (It's been a year now). We've talked about kids since, but as of right now, there is no hard and fast timeline like "we are going to start trying in one year". We both know that we have to figure out our issues and make sure we are recovered and in a healthy marriage.

I don't think either of us are at the point where we trust each other enough(him d/t my A's) (me d/t his priority-making) to have kids now (not that anyone would advise us too at this point in time). But I do know that he really does want a family and to have kids, I think our timeline for the family is based on our relationship healing. Not sure if that makes any sense.

I'm in the military for another 2 years anyway, and I had originally wanted to wait till I was done, so I didn't have to worry about getting deployed. So by that time we will either be better and happy or not.

Was that too evasive of an answer for you?

doro, it's been ages since your last post! how are things going there?