I've been a reader here for years and have learned immensely from Dr Harley's concepts. But I have never participated on the forums and would like to ask a question today about whether there are cases where a truly happy ending is just a hopeful illusion, even when both parties try to recover.

D day for me was over 2 years ago when I learned that WH had had a 5 year long affair behind my back. Rewind to the years prior to that - WH was starting to express interest in some pretty perverse (to me) sexual activities that I did not support. I had no interest in them and therefore obviously did not meet his needs in that regard. I thought he got over it and it was simply something that wasn't a factor anymore. Turns out he had found an outlet - with a very young and very beautiful woman to boot. She was into the same kinds of perversions and somehow they found each other online and began an online affair, which later turned very physical when they discovered they live close.

I was non the wiser - in fact, I thought things between us were great and that WH loved me. He still regularly wanted to have sex with me.
Then I don't know exactly what triggered him to tell me about the affair, but I believe partly it was because he kind of got bored with OW and also had to realize after 5 years that the relationship wasn't really going anywhere. He also began to believe that perhaps he could have what he had wanted all along with me. So one day he simply sat me down and released the bomb on me. In fact with VERY little remorse. He blamed me saying that if only I had met his needs when he had begged me to, none of this would have even happened and that he hates the fact that he ever got involved. My reaction was immediate. I told him to get out and that I don't want to see him again EVER.
Well, guess what - he spun on his heels and walked out. Not a word. I spent the next few weeks crying my eyes out - he never so much as called. Later I found that he had moved in with OW. I also found out through common sources that he was doing pretty ok. It gets worse - about 3 weeks after he'd walked out, he sent me an email saying that its basically my loss - that he came clean but I shunned him. That he will never love her as much as he does me but that at least she's dynamite in bed and that helps to make out for a lot!!!! I was in agony.
About a couple months after that it was I who reached out to him, basically saying that I forgive him and let him go, if he is truly happy with his choice.
That is when things turned around and he wrote back saying he was sorry for the awful things he had said and wanted to attempt a reconciliation. Giddy that he still actually wanted to (after so much rejection this seemed like a miracle), I let him back. Maybe too easily.
For some time, even though he was "working on things" with me, he still kept contact with OW every once in a while. Until it became too much and one day he finally realized how much pain he was putting me through. He sent a no contact letter, we moved and he has basically taken every step possible since to try to make it up to me.
Now I need to also say one more thing - when we were separated I ran across his diary that he had kept where he wrote a LOT about OW. It was never intended for her to read, but rather his thoughts and feelings. The feelings were all about how incredibly hot he found her, how AMAZING the sex was and how he would ever be able to let go of her if it ever has to end. I will not go into graphic descriptions but it was probably a book full (over a 5 year period). I have no idea why he kept such a diary, but it seems that he wrote these feelings down during times he could not be with her but was missing her. Aside of that, I also found a couple of videos (phone recorded ones most likely) of them having sex. I can't believe I watched them, but not knowing that they were, I did. It was during a time I thought we would never get back together and I thought it would help me realize what a fool I am even thinking about this man anymore.
The problem is... the videos and the diaries don't lie. WH was definitely over the moon (at least sexually) about this woman. Also, it doesn't help that she was absolutely gorgeous I am not unattractive, but it is hard to compete with perfection. She was one of those kinds of women that make mens' heads turn. What she wanted with WH, I don't know. But its no wonder he was nuts about her.
When WH came back I was happy and thrilled that he still left her for me and that he was willing to do everything (no contact, moving away etc) to be with me forever.
But now, 2 years down the line, even though everything has changed in my life, I am finding that I am unable to get over the imagery that haunts me and over everything I'd read and seen. I thought that time will heal but it is almost as if with time I start feeling more angry and more resentful. I sometimes wonder what would have happened if I had never reached out in the first place to WH and whether I should have simply let him go. Because now, even though I have him "back", I feel as if I am suffering with post traumatic stress disorder.
Even though we have moved away, everytime I see a woman who looks anything like her, whether in a magazine or on the street, or even a female college student, I start thinking about her and WH and the documented diary of how he felt about her.
I try to shut it out. I wish I didn't even know. I would have almost rather lived with a lie that he wasn't so turned on by her even if this wasn't the case (maybe I just say that). In his diary he described how they had spent a full weekend together (I was out of town) having nothing but sex ALL day and that he didn't want it to end because he is "insatiable" when it comes to her body and that he sometimes doesn't know how it is he ever lets her go.
This goes on and on and on.

The thing is right now... sometimes I cry and feel disgusted with myself for ever letting him back. I feel inadequate and even though sex with him is passionate, I feel like it can never compete with what I saw in the videos with the little porn-starlet woman (fake breasts and all).

As times goes on and this resentment and bitterness and imagery is not ebbing, I am now truly wondering if maybe this marriage is simply doomed? WH is getting tired of me bringing it up, in fact he absolutely hates me ever mentioning her and would be perfectly happy never thinking or talking about her again. (maybe he does think about her but I wont' know).
For me, I start to wonder if I am simply incapable of getting over it.

I don't know what to do. If there is hope, I want to keep trying and seeing if this can eventually fade. But maybe, I am simply never going to get over this. And if so maybe I need to be honest with myself and move on?

Is there such a thing as too much damage sometimes?

2cents, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am very sorry for your tragedy.

How long did you know about the affair before it ended?

What have you and your husband done to create romantic love in your marriage? Typically when the present is happy, the focus moves to the present and away from the past. I know of one particular poster who does have PTSD from false recoveries and she is doing great today b

Sometimes there is too much damage IMO. What is a dealbreaker to one person may not be to another.

There may be hope but you also need to be honest with yourself as well as have a plan..and follow it.

You said you still talk to your H about the affair...what specifically are you talking about? Since you've been a reader for yrs, what is UA time like? EPs that are in place? What JC has your H provided?

Even two yrs post Dday, your feelings are normal.

I would say that before things TRULY ended (no contact ever again), it probably took about 8 months. Since then its been 1.5 years.

WH deposits a lot of points in the love bank each and every day. Unfortunately I have to suppress withdrawing from his bank because I literally have to bite my tongue sometimes not to bring up the affair, or more specifically just simply be able to talk about the imagery that is haunting me and poisoning my life. I have sickening dreams and sometimes simply wake up mad at him even though nothing new happened. The dream would bring it back freshly.
There are times when I see someone who looks like her or acts like her or reminds me of her in any way, and my mind instantly brings back the horrible thoughts of them together.
Most of all, what is difficult for me is getting over his mad desire for her that I know was real. He says he didn't love her, although he does admit to an emotional attachment. But when it comes to passion/physical attraction, he just goes quiet because he knows he can't deny the things he said to me or the things I read and saw. He claims he never thinks about her and also has tried many times to "salvage the damage" by awkwardly trying to make me believe it wasn't what it was, but I see right through it. He simply doesn't want me to suffer from the truth, so he tries to cover it up with white lies, which is actually enraging.

There are days when things are great, and there are others when I feel like I can barely breathe, even though nothing new happened.
Sometimes, I simply think, I cannot get over it, and continuing this relationship is unnatural.
When I was little, my parents went through surviving an affair themselves and I swore to myself that I would NEVER put up with a man who cheats on me. That was basically my deal breaker. Which is of course why I showed WH the door when I first learned.
But emotional distress, rejection and horrible pain made me believe that taking him back will make the pain go away. But I had no idea that I would feel this way down the line. Maybe I'm truly never meant to get over this.

argh, computer problems! Back to my point. My friend who has PTSD is in a happy, fulfilled, romantic marriage today because she went through the MB program. It was a very difficult, long road, but with Dr Harley's guidance she and her husband made it though to the other side.

Harley states that when there is lingering resentment, that recovery is not complete. If a romantic, passionate marriage is created, it takes the focus off the past. When the present is happy, the focus tends to be in the present.

Here's a good show where Dr. Harley talks with a man whose WW had an affair the whole 10 years of his marriage.
Radio clip
Segment #2
Segment #3

THIS is the cause of your problem. Dr H suggests no more than 3-4 WEEKS of continued contact between you and your WH while he is still in contact wtih the OW. The reason is because women suffer nervous breakdowns and suffer PTSD.


I can see he is lying about the affair to spare your feelings. He was in love with her. However, he can feel the same for you if you do this right. Believe it or not, you have a distinct competitive advantage. Her relationship wiht him was unstable and unsustainable. Yours is none of those.

Please consider using the MB program. It really does work and you need professional, qualified help.

2cents, Harley would tell you that your recovery is not complete if you feel this way this far out. That is NOT normal! Go check this out and listen to the links.

Recovery is not complete

I'll stop typing after this but what happened to R takes a good two yrs (not that two yrs is a drop deadline) minimum?

i think, bv, even though it has been two years, they have not been working full steam towards recovery during this time. the first 8 months don't count at all, because he was still an active wayward.

2cents, can you please answer the questions about UA time and JC? have you guys been working the program, or just trying to get by on your own?

It does take 2 years, but she should not be in this much pain this far out. And I can see why that is. She should be on the backside of the pain by now, working out the kinks in their recovery. They don't have a plan and she was essentially in a prolonged Plan A that caused her to experience PTSD.

thank you for all these thoughts so far, and I can't wait to listen to the radio segments (don't have audio at the moment). I have actually never listened to the radio clips and it will be wonderful to have some new material - I have read the articles and Q and A on affairs to the point that I can probably recite them

I am wondering if MelodyLane has a point about 3-4 weeks being a cut off for women for my case. I think what is haunting me is everything in the diaries that I read and the things I saw and the things he has said to me (when he was being a jerk). Now its too late to take all of it out of my head but if there was a pill that would make me forget I might actually take it.
I am not kidding that there was probably a book's worth of feelings in his diaries all going on and on and ON about OW. Unfortunately I read it all. So its like I feel like I was living inside his head and KNOWING how he felt makes this such a nightmare. There were even places where he compared us physically (her being the clear winner). Now how does a woman ever get over that?

Sometimes, when I feel that I can't move past this, I feel like I am the one with a problem. He spends time with me, bends over backwards to meet my needs, can't wait to come home to me and so on and on. So now, aside of dealing with haunting memories of the past, I am dealing with feeling like a failure. Because it seems that he is ready to move on and has taken every step to, while I am stuck in the past.

That is why I have started wondering if there is truly too much damage at some point. Even though things are wonderful now... I feel like my true happiness with him has been robbed.
Some days I don't think about it. But most days... I do.

ooh boy, this is another huge problem. Every time you bring it up, you make yourself and him miserable. Don't talk about it again. This will keep you resentful for years if you do this and it will drive a wedge between you and your husband.

well, 2cents, there are situations where there IS too much damage, and every BS has the right to pull the plug, if that's where you are.

however, if your WH is repentant, i would encourage you to give MB recovery a try. would you be willing to do the online programme or coach with the harleys?

nonononoo, we can help you get through this. A huge first step will be to stop talking about it. That is keeping you triggered. When you think about it, you keep it front of mind longer when you SPEAK about it.

Do you have the book SAA? Are you following the MB program?

We actually have been following MB. I wasn't the one that asked him to send a no contact letter because I felt that I needed to know that it was him who wanted to get rid of her and not me forcing him to. So this was initiated by him. He threw her out of his head. I wish he could throw her out of mine.

The 8 or so months after he came back, contact between them was minimal, but I caught him looking at pictures of her, he also wrote into his diary some of that time (once again on how hot sex with her had been and so on).
But I think it took an event where he actually REALIZED the pain he was causing me and then he just did an overnight switch.

His JC is obviously that he gave up all ties with her, we moved, he deleted all her pictures and is basically wiling to keep depositing into my bank until I don't think about her (or them together) anymore. He told me he thinks back and finds thoughts of them together revolting (I think that's probably partly a white lie to make me feel better, but truly the damage there is already done).

I can't get over many things. Like he bought me some lingerie that I found a little too degrading and refused to wear. I later found pictures on his computer of her wearing this lingerie!!! Makes me cry just to think about it.
I won't even recount the absolutely awful and traumatic things for me with regards to this affair.

But some days I just hate him. Even with the changed man he is now. I hold it back in order to avoid love busters. But then I feel like its unfair that he does this, and then ends up moving past it and forgiven, while "I'm" the one who lives on suffering for his mistakes.
Some days.. I feel like the only truly justified punishment for him will be for me to simply leave, because he doesn't deserve me after all he did to me.
Other days I try to believe we will eventually recover and focus on the wonderful relationship we have now (unlike anything we had before).
its a love-hate relationship I guess.
He is happy. I'm still suffering.

I agree which is why I said her feelings are normal at this point.

I actually stopped talking about it, probably 6 months ago - to him. Because I could see the damage it was causing. But honestly, sometimes it was just me needing to vent the steam that is all still inside. I wouldn't talk about it in a way that would accuse him but rather talk about how I am having a rough time and cannot get past the imagery. Its like I want an alternate reality.
well, he would go quiet or switch subjects or basically not react. So eventually I stopped talking about it. But it hasn't stopped me thinking about it. In fact, many days I start to feel even more resentful because I start to think, how come is it that he is in happy world, nobody even bringing his mistakes up again, while I am the one still feeling this pain and now also being banned from talking about it so having to internalize it.

I feel like I can't share my true feelings with him, which is now developing into another emotional need (to have an outlet for this) that it looks like he can no longer meet because its a love buster.

This is why I've decided to post about it on here. I am desperate to know if there actually *can* be a happy ending.

I find that with time, even with a good relationship, I often fantasize about leaving. Its almost as if... I can't get over the fact that he gets to get away with it.

Maybe I'm the one with the problem.
Or maybe there is such a thing as a little too much damage. I have way too many traumatic images/words/and even videos in my head that have been burned into my mind.

Agree about the prolonged Plan A/PTSD. If no Plan has been followed then her feelings are still normal, the marriage limped along, etc. One yr from NC is typical for anger and wtf am I with this guy? so I still see the timeline of her feelings as normal.

My point is that her feelings are this way BECAUSE she has had no plan of recovery. There is something WRONG when a BS feels this way this far out, and that is due to having no plan. Like I said above, recovery is not complete. There is no recovery plan.