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Originally Posted by MrAlias
I�m sure this example is a work in progress for her and I and it will be some time before we find the final solution. But I feel better just knowing we�re working together to find something we both will want to live with.

That is an amazing breakthrough, MrA. I am so very glad you all are working with Dr Chalmers. I understand your wife's outlook and will say that the POJA was the hardest thing for me to grasp because I had an entitlement attitude and felt like I could never be truly happy unless I pursued my little heart's desires. Little did I understand that my IB would lead to unhappiness because of the damage it did to my marriage.

It sounds like your wife is getting this. I know that i was much more willing to give up my independent behavior when I understood the trade off. Sort of like quitting smoking. I was trading in my IB for a happy, romantic marriage. And now she is in a position to fully understand that.

Dr Harley made an interesting observation about his own marriage on the radio show last week that caused a lightbulb to go off for me. He was discussing the practice of sacrifice and said that the REASON he and Joyce get along so good is BECAUSE they have never engaged in the practice of sacrifice. When you think about it, it really makes sense.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Sacrifice. It's funny (not really) the things I do and the thoughts that roll around in my head when I�m not communicating with my W.

So many times (you think I'd learn) when I finally have a discussion with my W about a particular area I feel I'm being LB'd where her perspective ... well puts things in perspective. Instead of radical honesty I would go with assumptions and judgments.

And I'm talking about everything ... not just the big things. All the little things that really add up. Now sometimes it feels burdensome when I have to have a discussion about every little thing, but given the alternative which always has a far better, more positive outcome it is a no brainer. I think that is what�s hard for many new couples that come here � the radical honesty � because in the beginning it really does take a lot of work and determination to work through conflicts � big or small. The task to most probably feels daunting. But in the end it is really worth it. It eliminates a lot of IB and removes the independent thinking that almost always leads to DJs.

I remember a radio clip where both Dr Harley and Joyce were talking about how hard it was to buy each other gifts and keep it a secret. Not because they didn�t like to surprise each other but that they really wanted to share their joy and excitement in what they got for each other. They said it was all they could do to keep it a secret. Almost like torture. No secrets. Full disclosure �. Er uhm � unless it�s a surprise! laugh


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Update: Well things are going relatively well. I continue to work hard to fill my W's ENs. I feel totally engaged in our M again and have no desire to go back to being withdrawn. My thoughts of her are positive in nature and thus I can say we're floating between the stages of intimacy and conflict.

I think I'm struggling a little bit because I feel devoted to following the assignments given by Dr. Chalmers but I have to be the catalyst for them and by that I mean I have to be the one to mention we have homework to do and ask if we can schedule time to do the work. Days go by sometimes and the homework isn't done. I think this is the extent of how much she wants to partipate. I get the impression she just doesn't want to do the work because she isn't self motivated to do it.

I'm looking for a little feedback.

An LB I struggle with is Dishonesty. Her #3 EN is Honesty and Openness. I struggle when it comes to communicating my feelings. I am being dishonest with my W because I tend to withhold the truth of what I'm feeling/experiencing. Some of this Dishonesty comes from what are probably DJs too.

My reasonings (internal workings) have to do with trying to not apply pressure to my W. Knowing what I know about her (she could live without SF, many times just doesn't have the energy nor desire, she has thoughts about guys only wanting one thing, etc) I tend to soft shoe around certain subjects. Not all subjects but certainly any subject that's conflictive (SF, Marriage Builders assignments, etc.)

This isn't working, of course.

Today I sent her a message explaining my relunctance to be 100% honest about what I'm feeling when it involved SF. I asked for her help in letting me know how she would like me to approach the subject. I await her response. It's possible I won't get a response ... so I guess I'll have to be diligent in continuing to ask.

I should be able to just say ... "Would you like to ...". But most times I don't. Then what happens is the specifics I gave her in my I'd love it if(s) aren't met so I'm disappointed, frustrated and worried this is just going to go back to the same old same old. I own my piece of this. I don't put all the blame on her that my need isn't met. I mean if I can't even man up enough to ask I shouldn't expect it to just happen. It would be nice but I shouldn't expect it.

I have a poor Giver and a poor Taker.

Has anyone else had this internal struggle and what were some things you did that sorta helped get passed it?


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Here's something I just read:

It sounds so easy .... just speak up. Right. Like if it were that simple I'd already be doing that.

Well, I guess that is where I'd marry up the alternative behaviors that Dr. Chalmers is teaching us. To voice my displeasure ... not by being negative but by merely speaking up using thoughtful requests ... again ... I'd Love It If(s) .....

I have to get my brain around how doing that is a thoughtful request not a demand or expectation.

Here's what I read:
Quote
I�m often asked whether there�s a most common issue facing those who seek therapy, and usually I respond by saying that there really isn�t one issue that stands out, per se. However, there seems to be a common root to a significant number of issues that I help clients with, that is, �conflict avoidance�. The avoidance of conflict, both in the immediate- and long-term, not only has the ability to undermine the foundation for any healthy relationship, it more often than not eventually leads directly to its undoing. Unfortunately, this usually occurs with the direct �approval� of the avoider. In other words, if given the choice, some people would much rather see a relationship dissolve before their very eyes than risk facing the potential pain, awkwardness, or anxiety that often accompanies the act of being fully present and honest with another human being.

Couple�s therapy is often a place where this phenomenon is most evident. In fact, I can�t count the number of times that couples have stated with pride that throughout the course of their relationship they rarely, if ever, argued, as if that fact represented the gold standard for a healthy relationship. Unfortunately, it isn�t. It may be a relatively quiet and (externally) peaceful relationship, but it certainly isn�t a healthy one, primarily for two reasons: 1) it�s void of the full spectrum of human emotions, some of which include frustration, anger, and resentment, and 2) the entire relationship is based upon the avoider�s fear. Yet, upon hearing their declaration of �non-arguing�, I almost hate to disappoint them when they clearly hold it such high regard. But it�s typically never too long before I burst that balloon, and let them know that perhaps if they�d argued a bit more (in healthy and respectful ways, of course) they just might not be sitting in an office like mine.

Conflict avoidance, as is the case for conflict confronters, is a communication style that is often formed within the family of origin. For example, an adult who was raised by at least one parent who was a conflict avoider, may have learned early in life that avoiding conflict seemed to work best for that parent. (Note, however, that the concept of �worked best� doesn�t necessarily imply �healthiest�, rather it may just mean what seemed emotionally or physically �safest� for the individual under their particular circumstances.) Another scenario where a conflict avoidance style might be adopted early in life is where a child is parented by one, or both, parents who were conflict confronters � confronters who may have elicited a great deal of fear on the part of the child. Consequently, as a survival mechanism, the child will often do anything to avoid creating additional conflict within the family and will, in many cases, adopt the role of a �people pleaser� in childhood, as well as in their adult relationships, thus, becoming what we know as a �co-dependent� or �self-sacrificer� in the process.

Regardless of the origin of conflict avoidance, one thing is certain: both the avoider, and those around them, pay a huge price for the behavior � and often, as I said previously, the price paid may mean the end to many relationships over their lifetime. By definition, their relationships (other than casual acquaintances) tend to be time-limited, since it�s inevitable that all people in relationships will at one point or other experience conflict. And, if it�s not dealt with appropriately, or avoided all together, the only option is to remain silent, hoping the problem will go away by itself which, of course it never does. Consequently, the relationship dies either physically (it ends, and the people part), or emotionally (where people may stay together but where little remains between them). Regardless, it�s not that the conflict avoider is unpleasant to be around. On the contrary. The avoider tends to be on the surface, at least, easy-going, flexible, and eager to please. It�s wonderful having people like that in one�s life since one thing�s for sure, they won�t cause any conflict. But, underneath, most of these people experience huge amounts of resentment, even rage, because by sacrificing their �voice� � both literally and figuratively � their lives are often out of their own hands since they simply won�t �beg to differ�. As such, many end up experiencing lives so very different than they had originally hoped for (yet refused to fight for). Consequently, by honouring their commitment to �keep peace at any price�, most of their negative emotions are merely swallowed, at least until they find they can no longer do so successfully. At that point, the emotions of the avoider either erupt overtly or, more typically, they engage in the only form of anger they consider safest: passive aggression � another relationship killer.

So what to do? Well, if you�re an avoider, and you�re no longer willing to pay the price of seeing important relationships with others (and, by the way, with yourself, too) wither and die, then the first step is to find your voice, again, both literally and figuratively. Find the many ways in which you �hide� in relationships, and decide that you�re going to find the courage to begin speaking up, to begin showing up in your relationships, to begin to be yourself more fully. You have the right, after all, and, in doing so, you might be surprised at the freedom it offers you, a freedom that you�ve missed out on your entire life. Yes, it�ll probably mean introducing more conflict into your life, but once you experience the freedom of your own voice, you may never decide to sell yourself out ever again. And, because of that decision you�ll no doubt need to learn the sorts of tools that will help you deal with conflict. But that�s the second step. The first step is to begin speaking up, no longer being the �people pleaser�. In the �pleaser�s� place will stand a fully present and emotionally tangible person with a unique voice, who will be finally known by others, and, again, most importantly, by themselves.

So, again, how to begin? Get off the proverbial fence, take a stance, find your voice, and then�offer an opinion!


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Wow,, just wow... I relate to so much of this... I've just been here for so long that I have absolutely no idea how to do any of this..

Yes my father scared me to death, but my mom wasn't much better. I remember my grandparents being upset becasue they felt like both of my parents yelled at me way too much...

early in life is where a child is parented by one, or both, parents who were conflict confronters � confronters who may have elicited a great deal of fear on the part of the child. Consequently, as a survival mechanism, the child will often do anything to avoid creating additional conflict within the family and will, in many cases, adopt the role of a �people pleaser� in childhood, as well as in their adult relationships, thus, becoming what we know as a �co-dependent� or �self-sacrificer� in the process.


This describes me so much:
Regardless, it�s not that the conflict avoider is unpleasant to be around. On the contrary. The avoider tends to be on the surface, at least, easy-going, flexible, and eager to please. It�s wonderful having people like that in one�s life since one thing�s for sure, they won�t cause any conflict. But, underneath, most of these people experience huge amounts of resentment, even rage, because by sacrificing their �voice� �[/b

And this is so incredibly true...
[b]In other words, if given the choice, some people would much rather see a relationship dissolve before their very eyes than risk facing the potential pain, awkwardness, or anxiety that often accompanies the act of being fully present and honest with another human being


I am absolutely terrified of being fully present... I'm not sure how to find my voice...

Thanks for posting this... BTW, I'm not posting for 2 reasons: 1. So my thread will get buried if hubby decides to look at the site.. 2. It is time to fish or cut bait. People have given their advice. I know what I need to do. I just need to do it or live with the consequences.


Quote
I�m often asked whether there�s a most common issue facing those who seek therapy, and usually I respond by saying that there really isn�t one issue that stands out, per se. However, there seems to be a common root to a significant number of issues that I help clients with, that is, �conflict avoidance�. The avoidance of conflict, both in the immediate- and long-term, not only has the ability to undermine the foundation for any healthy relationship, it more often than not eventually leads directly to its undoing. Unfortunately, this usually occurs with the direct �approval� of the avoider. In other words, if given the choice, some people would much rather see a relationship dissolve before their very eyes than risk facing the potential pain, awkwardness, or anxiety that often accompanies the act of being fully present and honest with another human being.

Couple�s therapy is often a place where this phenomenon is most evident. In fact, I can�t count the number of times that couples have stated with pride that throughout the course of their relationship they rarely, if ever, argued, as if that fact represented the gold standard for a healthy relationship. Unfortunately, it isn�t. It may be a relatively quiet and (externally) peaceful relationship, but it certainly isn�t a healthy one, primarily for two reasons: 1) it�s void of the full spectrum of human emotions, some of which include frustration, anger, and resentment, and 2) the entire relationship is based upon the avoider�s fear. Yet, upon hearing their declaration of �non-arguing�, I almost hate to disappoint them when they clearly hold it such high regard. But it�s typically never too long before I burst that balloon, and let them know that perhaps if they�d argued a bit more (in healthy and respectful ways, of course) they just might not be sitting in an office like mine.

Conflict avoidance, as is the case for conflict confronters, is a communication style that is often formed within the family of origin. For example, an adult who was raised by at least one parent who was a conflict avoider, may have learned early in life that avoiding conflict seemed to work best for that parent. (Note, however, that the concept of �worked best� doesn�t necessarily imply �healthiest�, rather it may just mean what seemed emotionally or physically �safest� for the individual under their particular circumstances.) Another scenario where a conflict avoidance style might be adopted early in life is where a child is parented by one, or both, parents who were conflict confronters � confronters who may have elicited a great deal of fear on the part of the child. Consequently, as a survival mechanism, the child will often do anything to avoid creating additional conflict within the family and will, in many cases, adopt the role of a �people pleaser� in childhood, as well as in their adult relationships, thus, becoming what we know as a �co-dependent� or �self-sacrificer� in the process.

Regardless of the origin of conflict avoidance, one thing is certain: both the avoider, and those around them, pay a huge price for the behavior � and often, as I said previously, the price paid may mean the end to many relationships over their lifetime. By definition, their relationships (other than casual acquaintances) tend to be time-limited, since it�s inevitable that all people in relationships will at one point or other experience conflict. And, if it�s not dealt with appropriately, or avoided all together, the only option is to remain silent, hoping the problem will go away by itself which, of course it never does. Consequently, the relationship dies either physically (it ends, and the people part), or emotionally (where people may stay together but where little remains between them). Regardless, it�s not that the conflict avoider is unpleasant to be around. On the contrary. The avoider tends to be on the surface, at least, easy-going, flexible, and eager to please. It�s wonderful having people like that in one�s life since one thing�s for sure, they won�t cause any conflict. But, underneath, most of these people experience huge amounts of resentment, even rage, because by sacrificing their �voice� � both literally and figuratively � their lives are often out of their own hands since they simply won�t �beg to differ�. As such, many end up experiencing lives so very different than they had originally hoped for (yet refused to fight for). Consequently, by honouring their commitment to �keep peace at any price�, most of their negative emotions are merely swallowed, at least until they find they can no longer do so successfully. At that point, the emotions of the avoider either erupt overtly or, more typically, they engage in the only form of anger they consider safest: passive aggression � another relationship killer.

So what to do? Well, if you�re an avoider, and you�re no longer willing to pay the price of seeing important relationships with others (and, by the way, with yourself, too) wither and die, then the first step is to find your voice, again, both literally and figuratively. Find the many ways in which you �hide� in relationships, and decide that you�re going to find the courage to begin speaking up, to begin showing up in your relationships, to begin to be yourself more fully. You have the right, after all, and, in doing so, you might be surprised at the freedom it offers you, a freedom that you�ve missed out on your entire life. Yes, it�ll probably mean introducing more conflict into your life, but once you experience the freedom of your own voice, you may never decide to sell yourself out ever again. And, because of that decision you�ll no doubt need to learn the sorts of tools that will help you deal with conflict. But that�s the second step. The first step is to begin speaking up, no longer being the �people pleaser�. In the �pleaser�s� place will stand a fully present and emotionally tangible person with a unique voice, who will be finally known by others, and, again, most importantly, by themselves.

So, again, how to begin? Get off the proverbial fence, take a stance, find your voice, and then�offer an opinion!
[/quote]

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Hi tired.

Funny how I'm quick to hand out advice to you about finding your voice and yet can't do the same.

My FOO comes from a mother who suffered from major depression and a father who tried to comfort and appease her as much as possible. Most times she'd just hide in her room and cry all day. But when she came out sometimes there were explosions (suicide attempts, disrespect of my father, outright anger).

For me I associated with the "sacrifice" part of the statements ... and then the build up and "boom". I've really learned to be conscientious of that.

To this day when one of my kids cries I can only take it for so long and have to do something. I've found I try to comfort them so the crying stops ... even if they're being disciplined and hence the crying.


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Today's radio clip has segments Radical Honesty, Dishonesty and Liars.

I tried to listen but it just keeps stopping on my DROID. I'd like to hear his thoughts because sometimes when things are just put into perspective (big picture) it sinks in for me ... and I muster the courage to move forward.

Maybe that'll help you too?


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I thought I'd give a quick update.

Things are going better than I could have expected. My W and I are truly behaving in ways I've never seen before in my 29 years of knowing her.

We've eliminated all of the troublesome ways we used to talk (or not talk) not just on the hard topics but everything. Every conversation.

We've been spending a ton of time together (thanks to the Holidays and time off). It's been fun. We're doing things together first and foremost instead of making seperate plans ... not because we have to but because we want to.

My W approached me last night and said she needed to state some things. Wow Open and Honest communication.


She said she�s really happy and loves what has been happening lately. She loves being with me and now craves that more than anything she�s craved before � more than being with her sister or her horses or whatever. Her first desire is to be with ME!!!

She said she feels sorry for other couples (we�ve got family and friends that have some pretty ugly Ms) and she knows they�re going to be jealous of us. I agree wholeheartedly.

I am ecstatic. My needs are being met and many of the LBs I saw in her before are being eliminated. Heh, while I�m sure we�ll keep working on those LBs I hardly a concern about them now that my needs (especially #1) are being met. I couldn�t be happier and continue to be prepared to move heaven and earth to make her happy.

MelodyLane I found that smile.

grin

Last edited by MrAlias; 12/31/12 10:00 AM.

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hurray What a wonderful update. Thanks for sharing.


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MrA that is so awesome!


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Bravo to you, my friend. grin


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I just went back and read this thread from the start! WOW! What an amazing read. It is amazing how FAR you have come, MrAlias. smile


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Thanks Melody.

I hate to say it was luck that made things happen � but I know it played a part. I was fortunate (lucky) that my wife agreed to join me in MB coaching. She could have refused or continued to suggest other alternatives that probably would have kept us where we were. She gets my kudos because she loved me enough, she wanted our marriage enough, to give Marriage Builders a try.

I know it is proven you can do MB alone and make a difference � but in my situation it just didn�t work. I know we had this debate before but I was quite certain I knew nearly all of what was needed to incorporate the MB principles into my lifestyle even though I hadn�t read a Dr. Harley book. I know I put a lot of proper effort into what I was doing and got a TON of great advice and direction over the years from all the great posters here. Still not much changed for us. We�d make small little strides but we�d backslide over and over and over again. Thus I would be back, over and over and over again. Until her and I became a team, until we made the agreement we were going to do the MB plan together and give it our all then nothing much was ever going to change.

I know your push was for the coaching not so much that I hadn�t read the materials in the books. Having now read the 3 books I didn�t see much I didn�t already know. The joint agreement of following MB together was the key for us. That opened the door to what the coaching and the MB plan had to offer. It allowed my W and I to create new behaviors and habits that we�d never tried before.

The coaching was perfect for us. It was the neutral party we needed that provided the plan that we would agreed to follow, together. That made all the difference in the world. I was no longer trying to educate her on what I believe we needed to do. That was a huge LB for my W. She simply just doesn�t like it when I try to educate her � unless, of course, she asks me to. I now know better ways of opening up those types of talks. I know better ways to explain things from my perspective. Having Dr. Chalmers explain the plan and highlight areas we needed to work on was so instrumental in us working the plan. No longer was it a teacher/student or parent/child type situation for us. It was H and W working and learning together � as equals.

The one thing we learned in coaching that was critical for us was the piece on resentments. I�m sorry to say I was probably just as guilty as my wife not seeing the difference in the two types of resentments. Once that was discussed it opened our eyes as to where we were falling short in our M. It is helping us to remove those selfish areas we used to hold so dear to us.

My MB plug:
The biggest key to success, for any couple, is simply do the MB Plan ... together. It is an all encompassing plan that truly provides all the elements needed to create a completely safe and fair marriage. It is so much easier to love and give of yourself when you know you are a team and as such you are safe, you will be treated fairly and you will have your needs met.

I so look forward to continuing to build an even stronger relationship with my W.


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Originally Posted by MrAlias
I know your push was for the coaching not so much that I hadn�t read the materials in the books. Having now read the 3 books I didn�t see much I didn�t already know. The joint agreement of following MB together was the key for us. That opened the door to what the coaching and the MB plan had to offer. It allowed my W and I to create new behaviors and habits that we�d never tried before.

You are absolutely right about my push for coaching. The reason I pushed for coaching was because I know you CAN'T do Marriage Builders alone. You might be able to fiddle around the edges a bit and prime the pump, but it will all be to no avail if the reluctant spouse does not eventually get on board. You have seen yourself that it just doesn't work with one person. For example, the POJA can't be done alone because it is contingent upon a joint decision. The POJA is what makes all the difference in marriage. But even that is very hard to implement when you are not in love and in order to be in love, you have to work the program together.

I am relieved and happy for your sake that your wife was willing to get on the phone with Dr Chalmers. I think she is just awesome!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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So we hit what we believe was a bit of a rough patch ... or rather her and I both could feel us backsliding a bit.

I'm not exactly sure why but this weekend I certainly wasn't as pleasant as I'd been. She seemed to pull away a bit too.

But we both recognized it and set some directives to get back on track.

For me I have to separate all other things that cause me anxiety when I'm interacting with her. She isn't the source of my issues and thus she doesn't need to feel the repercussions of them. I vowed and am following through with being pleasant when I�m around her and she vowed to do the same.

If I can do my part then she�ll always be my source of happiness. I am pleasant, she is pleasant and when we�re both pleasant to each other all other things seem less significant. It�s like a shot of meds that make all other things less painful/stressful.

We did discover we don�t work as well together as we thought. We had trouble communicating during a small project her and I were trying to work on this weekend (this may be the mood setter I talked about above). We did manage to set a course of direction for the project and are getting close to its completion but after this experience I told her we shouldn�t count on these types of projects being the thing her and I do for UA RC time. So I suggested we sit down and find other things that would make us laugh and/or make us feel happy when we�re together. We may have to pull out the RC questionnaires.


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Originally Posted by MrAlias
But we both recognized it and set some directives to get back on track.

Perfect. You are self correcting and that is what is necessary.

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For me I have to separate all other things that cause me anxiety when I'm interacting with her. She isn't the source of my issues and thus she doesn't need to feel the repercussions of them. I vowed and am following through with being pleasant when I�m around her and she vowed to do the same.

What is causing you anxiety? My DH and I have learned to avoid any anxiety producing causes [as much as possible] during our UA time. For example, traffic sends my DH over the edge. When that happens he has angry outbursts at the other drivers which is a HUGE LOVEBUSTER to me. So we carefully plan our time to avoid traffic and he has learned to not have AOs. It makes our time together much less tense.

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If I can do my part then she�ll always be my source of happiness. I am pleasant, she is pleasant and when we�re both pleasant to each other all other things seem less significant. It�s like a shot of meds that make all other things less painful/stressful.

Agree to a point, but it is much better eliminate the stress whereever possible. Can you do that? And for sure, you are 100% right when you say it is much better to be PLEASANT.

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We did discover we don�t work as well together as we thought. We had trouble communicating during a small project her and I were trying to work on this weekend (this may be the mood setter I talked about above). We did manage to set a course of direction for the project and are getting close to its completion but after this experience I told her we shouldn�t count on these types of projects being the thing her and I do for UA RC time. So I suggested we sit down and find other things that would make us laugh and/or make us feel happy when we�re together. We may have to pull out the RC questionnaires.

You are doing the right thing! When you run into minefields, the solution is to make a course correction. Your focus is absolutely right: the make your time as pleasant as possible!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Our anxieties (she has some as well) are just normal issues everyone faces. It isn�t that they�re present as part of our time together � just that we�re still feeling the impacts of everyday life which spills over into our time together.

Mine revolve around work pressures, deadlines, management duties, etc. Hers seem to be around the gals at work and their poor behaviors. And, of course, the children. The little angels. Life is sometimes hectic.

The plan is be pleasant and not let those outside influences impact our time together. Well ... that's my plan anyways. I think she just needs me to be happy and pleasant. It makes all the difference in the world to her. It�s not that hard when I think of the payoff I get for doing so.

I like your solution to the traffic situation. I know I wouldn�t have AOs in traffic when she�s with but I certainly communicate to her my disdain for the people that are in my way. It�s my highway � move over. Hee-hee. grin

Thanks for the feedback Mel.

PS: DS15 recognized that things had backslid a little and communicated to Mrs. Alias his concerns. I think this really prompted us to have a more in-depth discussion on what to do about it.

Last edited by MrAlias; 01/08/13 03:17 PM.

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It's really funny how couples get into the bad habit of unpleasant behavior when they are together, without ever realizing it. One of my bad habits was venting. It could be about politics, people at work, etc. My H used to do the same thing. Now we stop ourselves and we even say to each other on the way home "have I been pleasant enough tonight?" Being consistently pleasant has made such a dramatic difference.

Do you listen to how the Harleys communicate on the radio show? They are always so pleasant so it is no wonder they are in love!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I do. It's almost so foreign (maybe not so much now) that it felt phoney to me. Can they really be that pleasant, comfortable and vulnerable with each other?

The answer is a definitive yes. It's just a matter of choosing to be that way.

"have I been pleasant enough tonight?" I like that. I'm sure you won't mind if I borrow it.


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I thought I'd share some things with everyone here. This is an email I sent to my wife.

The intent of the letter is to

1). Improve our R by increasing our RC items and Conversation topics
2). Practice my speak. Don't try to educate her but also be open and honest at the same time.

If you see anything glaring or have something to share that's helpful please do.

Originally Posted by Mr.Alias
To: Mrs. Alias
Subject: Recreational Companionship and Conversation
Hi Sweetie.

I was doing some reading this morning and stumbled across this from Dr. Harley:

It simply makes good sense for couples to take every opportunity to share recreational experiences because it's such an easy way to sustain the feeling of love.

But for some, especially men, recreation is not only an enjoyable diversion, but it also meets an important emotional need. It's something that often "keeps them going" For these people, recreational companionship is particularly satisfying. Those who share their favorite recreational activities with them build massive Love Bank accounts if they are of the opposite sex.

I encourage couples to spend most, if not all, of their recreational time together. It's one of the most efficient and effective ways to build the feeling of love.



... and that started me thinking about you and I. I've thought about this for years ... how you and I have sort of independent lives. I do my thing. You do your thing. We spend some time together but a lot of what we do together are things of necessity or family oriented activities versus things that just you and I do. It's like we're dependent on other things or other people to find things of interest to do. Well ... except for the remodeling stuff we've been doing and as we've found that seems to have created some pressure on us and isn't as fun as we'd hoped it would be. Although I am quite happy with how that little project is coming along. Thanks for the wonderful idea.

I would love it if we could find a few things that you and I would do together consistently that makes things fun for us.

I would love it if we had more to talk about then just my job, your job, our friends or families lives or things about the kids. Maybe if we found some fun things to do together we'd have more to talk about too.

If I don't know them all I would love to know what your dreams are.


Dr. Harley went on to say:

Most couples share favorite recreational activities during courtship. It's an important reason that they fall in love. But after marriage a host of circumstances prevents these activities from being shared, and before long they find it easier to engage in recreational activities independently. Since they do not join each other anyway, they pick new recreational activities that the other spouse would not enjoy. Eventually, such couples realize that they've "drifted apart" and wonder why.

In our case I started thinking ... what was it you and I did together when we were young and courting ... and all I could remember was that we'd simply be together ... and we'd go partying/drinking. That kind of saddened me. I thought there was more to us than that and maybe there is but my poor memory just can't recall what it was we did.

As I see it you and I get along pretty well. We have some communication issues where we kind of clam up and aren't always open and honest but we're working on that and I'm really encouraged. I hope you are too. I can see why we picked each other .... why we're together as we seem to try to be good to each other. We're both really "good" people and I must say I'm very lucky to be with you.

Still I'm a little nervous because I think there should be more to us than just being good to each other. My open and honest feelings are ... I'd like more than that for you and I.

Partying. I don't mind having an occasional drink, maybe a glass of wine a couple days a week or so, nor do I mind going to a party now and then where we have a few. But long gone are the days where that's all I want to do and I really don't care to drink a lot anymore. I think we differ a little on that and I know it's important for me to be honest about my feelings.

So I was wondering what your feelings were about where we are at in terms of stuff we do together. And do think you'd like to find other things to do together that would maybe increase our desires to be together?

If you would like to find other things could we look at one of Dr. Harley's lists on recreational activities and see if it helps? It's a questionaire. Would you be interested in going over it and putting in your opinions about these items?

If so this is the link to that webpage I was reading. At the bottom is the recreational inventory questionairre he's put together. There's room to add more if we have other interests we'd like to discuss and/or try.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4505_rei.html

Thanks and I love you.


Me: 57 Her: 54
M: 31 years
Kids(DS23, DD20, DS18)
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