Well, we only managed 6 hours last week. We are going to try to do better this week. Started off Sunday with 3 hours in the books, so we are already ahead of where we were last week.

One thing I'm having trouble with is being "pleasant" the whole time we are together alone. It's hard to explain. I find it kind of depressing or something. Maybe I'm just feeling anger. I don't know.

I think I'm still struggling with statements of "fact". Especially "I'm not sexually attracted to you." It's like I'm waiting around for her to take it all back or something. Does that make sense?

The UA time is crucial. This cannot be emphasized enough. Fifteen hours to sustain a romantic relationship; 20 -25 hours to recover it. Six hours a week isn't going to bring your marriage back. I know it is hard to get this with children. Have you brainstormed about ways to obtain childcare?

She is not sexually attracted to you right now because she is not in love with you. When she is in love with you, she will likely not feel this way.

All of us can understand the difficulty with anger, depression, triggers, etc while alone with your spouse and the effect these have on being pleasant. However, you will have to use your intellect to overcome acting these out through your emotions or your words. It's not to give a free pass to the former adulterer. It's because eliminating love busters is required to build a romantic relationship. Focus on the "Friends of Good Conversation." Here

You are using your intellect when you are affectionate with her in spite of your mixed and often negative feelings. You are using your intellect when you employ the friends of good conversation. I had to start using the Five Steps worksheet on conversation to document my blunders and plan my conversations.

You have good reason to divorce your wife for her adultery; however, if you want to stay and recover your marriage, the path is very narrow.

Have you considered using the MB Online Seminar, since your wife seems to be open to MB? It's so helpful to have an accountability coach to guide you through the lessons. The private forum is invaluable and extends beyond the one-year purchase period.

I'm not sure she is entirely convinced we can get out that much. I mean she doesn't say no, but I just don't get the enthusastic vibe from her.

"Enthusiastic agreement" from her on anything is very difficult for me to gauge in her most of the time really.


Well, she has stated she is willing to go through the program. I'm waiting on my tax return to pay for it. I don't think she is going to be all that into watching the seminar part though because she feels like she has heard it all already.

I'm most interested in the motivation part of it with the accountability coach. I'm hoping that will help get her more into it. How much contact do they have with you? How involved are they?

Just go ahead and schedule the time together each week. She may not yet be enthusiastic, but if the time together is consistently pleasant, she will grow to enjoy it and be more enthusiastic. The UA time is vital to your romantic relationship. She just can't see much hope yet, but keep it up and eventually she will fall in love with you again. The key is to make this time the most pleasant hours of your week and of hers. No lovebusting, no negative feedback, meeting her emotional needs as much as she will allow.

Enthusiastic agreement is about making decisions together in a way that makes both of you happy. The 15 hours of UA really isn't negotiable. The hours scheduled ARE negotiable. Don't try to gauge her enthusiastic agreement. Negotiate with her about the schedule, the times that work best for both of you, and about what you will be doing during those hours.

It's a mistake to judge right now whether she will watch the videos with you. If she is willing, sign up for it and watch the videos together. It's part of the program. Make sure while you watch the videos together that you don't get angry or make disrespectful judgments. Cuddle up with her and make it as pleasant as possible. We did ours together a bit at a time, in conjunction with our homework.

The coaching depends on the needs of the marriage. Much of the work is done by the couple at home with sessions with your coach when necessary. You can also post questions to Dr. Harley on the private forum, which is very helpful. Just reading the threads on the private forum with Dr. Harley's responses is helpful.

Your wife doesn't see it yet, but you and she have a great shot at a recovered marriage with romance and passion and that is safe. It really can be all you both have dreamed. It takes both of you. And it will take some time. The program is really helpful on getting a couple to build healthy new habits and breaking all the old bad ones.

She is not enthusiastic right now. Neither are you. That is the GOAL here. And if you don't schedule that time you will never be enthusiastic and she will never enjoy sex with you. Do you want that?


She has to watch the videos first before she can go to the next step.

Another great longwayfromhome post!

One thing that is bothering me today....

So, over the holidays, we got a Christmas card from a guy that was the sub for my wife while she was out on maternity leave. I noticed that she sent him a text saying something like "Thanks for the wonderful card. How are you doing?". Well, he never responded. I don't know if his number changed or what.

Yesterday, I saw on her FB that she had contacted him to say happy birthday, and then he had responded and they were talking back and forth. Just stupid stuff, like how is the family, where are you working now, etc.

Well, maybe it shouldn't have bothered me but it did, so I asked her about it. She kind of laughed it off and said "Are you afraid I'm going to develop feelings for him?", to which I responded "Well that's how it starts isn't it?"

She got mad and moved to the other side of the room and started ignoring me. I asked her if she was mad now and she said she just wasn't going to say anything since she might say something she regretted. So I left it alone.

It just doesn't give me the warm fuzzies to have that be her reaction to it. I can see why she would be upset, but I don't think I shouldn't have said anything at all if that's how I was feeling. IDK.

Does your W understand boundaries? Why is she having conversations with people of the opposite sex that isn't a blood relative?

Did she put in place EPs?

Understand what they are? Yes. I just don't think in her heart she believes in the "extraordinary" part of EP. I think it makes her feel not trusted and restricted. And I'm thinking "well duh"

And no, we never did a formal list of EPs. It seems like this is a bad time to bring it up. I just don't think I can bring up the subject without her thinking I am trying to "teach" her something.

It is normal for you to be bothered by her personal FB interactions with this guy. You did the right thing by pointing it out to her and not saying anything nasty. This is exactly how many affairs start--innocent little back and forths that turn into friendly conversations--that become more personal--and on it goes.

EPs are non-negotiable and are there for the protection of the marriage--to prevent another affair.

I would have her get rid of FB entirely. There are many on this forum who live without FB. The very least is to share a joint account, so you are both on there. The one name can be easily changed into a combination of both your names.

One of my FWH's EPs is "No communicating with a female in any other way than the necessary professional manner needed for work." Period. And I have access to his email, so I do periodically check and call him out on anything that looks like it's more than just professional.

Although redundant, I added a secondary EP that he was to have "No intimate conversations with a female (no conversations about anything personal, such as likes, dislikes, marriage, music, etc)" These two EPs would mean there are no personal birthday greetings.

I've had to call him on his sloppy boundaries several times since then, because these have been a long-time habit, but I don't feel bad at all about calling him out on them. Those are what it will take to make my marriage safe, and I'm not staying in an unsafe marriage. He's been defensive a couple of times but quickly cleared it up.

You are doing what it takes to make your marriage safe. She is still feeling defensive, so her reaction isn't a big surprise.

See, I don't see how I can even get into this subject of boundaries with her yet again without it causing bad feelings. I just know it's going to lead to what happened last night.

I don't fear it, I just don't feel like it helps us get any closer, know what I mean?

How can I approach it in a way that doesn't get her defenses all up? When that happens, the convo just ends and if I try to continue, it's just going to lead to a fight, so I shut up. But then it just feels unresolved, I end up here on the internet complaining about it.

Extraordinary Precautions are a basic part of recovery after an affair. And many people have practiced these without an affair first. The Harleys have always been this transparent with each other.

Here are the steps to recovery. And each one must be followed or your marriage will not recover. You may stay married but it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage--and who wants that?

Sit her down and tell her lovingly but firmly that this is what it will take to keep the marriage together:

1.) No contact for life with AP.

2.) Complete transparency: shared passwords to email, cell phones, bank accounts, etc.

3.) Integrated lifestyle: you know where the other is at all times. No nights apart.

4.) Extraordinary Precautions for LIFE (these aren't to educate a wayward or a formerly wayward. These dictate your own boundaries and what YOU will live with.)

5.) Rebuild the marriage into one that that is passionate and romantic--one that is better than the marriage before. This is part of what Dr. Harley calls Just Compensation. Just Compensation isn't about "forgiveness" or "moving on." It's about paying back in a way that creates a great marriage.

And of course, your wife shouldn't be trusted. That's silly. She's already proven she can't be trusted. None of us should be blindly trusted anyway. We would mostly all have affairs under the right conditions. And under other conditions, none of us would have affairs. Extraordinary Precautions prevent affairs by nipping it in the bud right from the start.

I posted my comment before I saw this one from you. Here's what I would say to your wife if I were in your shoes:

"Darling, I would love for you to be in love with me again, like you used to be. And I want to be in love with you, too. It would be so great if we could have the kind of marriage we dreamed we would. And it's possible.

"We CAN have that. I love you very much and want this marriage to be saved. But it's not fair that it should be just swept under the rug. We don't want our 'old' marriage back, do we?

"I will do all I can to meet your emotional needs in a way that I haven't done up till now. I will also avoid hurting you. I'm going to do all it takes.

"But there are some things I need for you to do, too. These extraordinary precautions aren't just for you. They are for me, too. I'm going to do these WITH you, because I want to make our marriage safe, too."

Then give her the list of EPs and the rest of the steps. And, if she is willing, the MB Online program as soon as you get your tax return, although they take credit card, you know.

This is the part where I just feel like I'm starting into a lecture. I have a history of "giving speeches" or "lecturing" and that is one of the LB that I have been working really hard to eliminate. I just don't do it anymore. It makes her feel like I am saying she is stupid.

I'll have a hard time approching this in a way that doesn't cause conflict.

And I posted mine before I saw yours. Thanks for this suggestion.

another great post from LWFH. FTF, it is important you YOU are radically honest (RH) with your WW. i know how hard this can be, because i struggle with it myself. but she needs to understand that you are withdrawing from her despite your best intentions (to recover the M). LWFHs sample dialog is terrific.

UA time is IMPERATIVE. you must schedule it each week. it's the SCHEDULING part that is important in that sentence. if you don't schedule it, it doesn't happen. i am not in your position, because my dd is grown and on her own now, but i know from other's threads that you can make this happen, you just have to be creative. brainstorm ideas, no matter how silly they seem, then pick a few you think *might* work and try to develop them. someone on the boards works out together because their gym has a creche, so they can spend the time together, releasing those endorphins, without the kids. that's just one idea.

it's also difficult to "find time" when you are in a rut where you are not used to it. as a busy woman who typically put everything and everyone ahead of myself, i had to learn how to prioritize myself and my relationship. as long as i think "this comes first, no matter what," i can manage to do the two most important things to me: spend UA time with my H, and go to the gym for my health. those two things now take priority over what used to: my job & professional activities. i derived a lot of personal satisfaction from my work, but i don't LOVE my work like i love my H. and i can't love my H like i should if i'm not healthy. so every day, i look at my schedule, and i put those 2 things as my most important goals for the day. everything else can wait if i've run out of time and/or energy.

i know that sounds counter-intuitive in our world/society. however, i just remember that being devoted to work over family = divorce most of the time, and an unhappy M the rest of the time.

And how would I convey that with the sample dialog presented?

See I'm more inclined to say something like:

"Wife, I'm having a really hard time with all of this. I feel betrayed and disrespected and ignored by what has happened. Now that I know you're capable of cheating on me, I NEED to know that you are aware of the damage you have done. I NEED to be reassured by you that you feel bad and are moving mountains to ensure that you won't fall into that trap again. The fact that you - right AFTER this - went and started emailed ANOTHER man, buddy or not, while I'm still reeling from the affair, leaves me wondering if you really even want to be married to me. I need to see something from you, so I won't just give up and check out of this marriage. Read this book - it explains the slippery slope of emotional affairs and talks about what happened to you. I need you to understand it, and to see it from my side."

But I can see how that might come across as demanding, but then again, is it really?

What you are wanting to convey to your wife is understandable. Her affair has been the worst thing that has ever happened to you and has hurt you to your core. The problem is that if you convey it in this way to your wife, at this time especially, it's not going to do anything to help your marriage.

The fact is that most wayward wives do not feel remorse for what they have done. Many blame their husbands for neglecting them and that's why they had this affair. So it's not going to be helpful to expect her to feel badly about what she's done. Not yet anyway. In a year or so, when/if the marriage is recovering, she may look back and feel terrible and express sadness, but you shouldn't expect it.

Now I know that seems deeply unfair, but that's what a betrayed husband must understand. It's different for betrayed wives, but we won't talk about that right now.

So, IF you want to recover your marriage, see if you can pursue her and win her back.

And I want to remind you that we are ALL capable of cheating. Those who have not either live a life of Extraordinary Precautions (avoiding tempting situations) or haven't had the opportunity.

FTF, i know how badly you want to say those things. i have not only thought, but said, those words and worse! it doesn't help at all. WWs are different from WHs, LWFH is right on that. we need to get a fella in here i think. however, i thought LWFHs sample dialog was pretty darn good. why couldn't you say exactly that? sadly, BHs are in the position of having to woo the WW back, despite the agony they are in. you need to focus on restoring romantic love.

ps: have you read the threads of the other BHs?

Ok, so I used LWFH's words almost verbatim. It led to a conversation where she basically doesn't really buy into the EP in this case. She says there is no chance of there ever being anything between her and this guy. She feels controlled and says she feels like she is losing her identity. It was a very calm conversation though. I only got accused of lecturing one time.

It did end with me telling her I loved her and was only trying to save us. I still don"t get the warm fuzzies though. I worry that she is just going to resent feeling "controlled".