Its been just over 3 months since DD and recovery has been up and down. In the beginning, he was great trying to meet my needs and now has become somewhat relaxed...slipping back. We had more discussions about the affair he had and turns out he loves me but wasn't necessarily "in love" with me. He admits to still thinking of the OW as to how she is doing even though its over. I don't believe they are in touch so that's not the issue. He admits that he didn't even think of me or care about me
during the affair which hurt a lot.

Before the affair, sex was nonexistent for the most part. I would ask why and he'd always respond it was him, not me and that he had no desire. I just got the test results back and everything is normal so it leads me to believe its me that he is not attracted to anymore. I'm down to 135lbs (he said my weight was the issue for the affair) and I've been meeting his EN's- making a conscientious effort to ensure that I do. We spend at least 20 hrs a week together.

If after 3 months he is not trying as hard and his tests indicate there's nothing physically wrong, am I just spinning my wheels? No matter how much effort I put into restoring our marriage it seems like it won't work:( Any ideas, suggestions, feedback?

Just shared with him the results of his tests and expressed how I felt. Since there is no medical reason I said that I feel that he just isn't attracted to me. He just said no and returned to his Ipad then changed the subject. That was the extent of our conversation. If I continue the conversation then I'm bordering "harping". So fustrated and depressed....

Welcome to Recovery Helen.

Based on your first set of posts in the SAA forum, I am guessing that you did not set specific boundaries for yourself. You 'asked' him to do XYZ, and did not REQUIRE him to do them in order for YOU to recover with HIM.

If I could go back and rewrite my own recovery process, I would required more than crumbs for myself. 2 1/2 years in and I am not 'in recovery' more like 'in limbo' with a WH who has made a half axx attempt. Why? Because that is all I have required of him. Why? Because (secretly) I knew that if I required more he would fail, and I would be divorced by now. Which, doesn't sound all that bad after continued YEARS of limbo.

But I digress. Just don't want to see you make the same mistake.

What have you required of him? Has he given you all info about the A? Has he set up EP's to affair proof your M? Has he committed to working the MB program? If so, have you invested in the online program or counseling with the coaching center? Will he post here (I would now make this a requirement in my own M)? Did you reconsider requiring a poly? The very fact that you say he would NEVER do a poly is a tip off to me as to why he will not invest in recovery, and the very fact that you accept that as an answer tells me the same thing.

Requiring crumbs will get you...crumbs. And I have a feeling you have entered into crumb land.

IOW, I can advise you based on my own regrets, not based on actions that have resulted in a full and happy recovery. That is a disclaimer.

If I could go back, I would require WH to invest in the online program. Work the program on a daily basis. Commit to 25hrs UA time WITHOUT FAIL. Do counseling with the coaching center as needed, which would have resulted in once a week at first, but even now we could probably find a specific 'needs help' area on a monthly basis. I would also require my WH to post here. This forum has turned my own mental state around, regardless of how my M turns out. I think the good people here could do WONDERS to encourage and motivate him to stay on track.

In addition to all of the boundaries that were set, which I have been very strict about. I personally focuses a lot on affair proofing through good boundaries, but not enough on building a strong marriage. Both are equally key to success.

This has to be about more than 'asking' your WH to do the work to protect your M and create a better than ever M, it has to be a requirement.

He said 'no' he isn't attracted to you?

Or 'no' that isn't the reason?

I do not feel that asking to explore this further is 'harping.' You need to explore the reasons that he is unable to meet your need.

Helen, is he still viewing porn and masturbating?

And when you spend this 20 hours together, WHAT are you doing? Are you meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs during that time? What do you do on your dates? Are you both very pleasant?

Have you eliminated lovebusters?

Hi Melody and Unwrtitten,
I have eliminated all love busters and he is not viewing porn any more.He never masturbated to it or at least not that I am aware of. I did catch him once looking strippers of an exotic club on facebook. I asked why where you looking at their profiles and he said he was just curious. The time together is talking, watching tv, swimming, shopping, planning our vacation, trade show together (was slow and we talked a lot), etc. Varies every week what we do. Both of us are very pleasant and dates are going out to dinner. We leave for another vacation in 2 weeks, We'll be together for a month on vacation.

Unwritten- Thanks for sharing and advice. He said no that it was not the reason and left it at that. Previously he said he had no desire, it was him, etc. Then he admitted it was because I was overweight. Well, I'm the same size as when we got married now and I'm still loosing, working out, eating super healthy, etc. Although, he doesn't see the weight loss on me stating that he sees me everyday so he doesn't notice it. Perhaps he is still viewing me as the old me. Sexy lingerie doesn't even get his attention.

He's shared his passwords, deleted and blocked all numbers connected to or with the OW. Is willingly going to counseling as well. Stopped going into the stores where he worked at my request as he could call, talk or reconnect with OW during those visits. He agreed and understood. He also realized that he should of been honest with me years ago and has apologized. He's offered to take a poly numerous times and we are open and radically honest with each other.

I make a conscientious effort to meet all his needs every day. Its a priority for me to do so. I was even thinking about revisiting them to see if his top EN's have changed at all, just so I know and meet those.

He's improved but I did tell him last week that his negative racist comments about anything is very unappealing to me. I also expressed to him that flicking a lit cigarette at my niece was not nice. He realizes that he is immature and needs to work on these issues. When discussing these types of things I do so with respect and not to demean him in any way. Alternatively, I also tell him positive things as well and compliment him. He did unblock a phone number without at least telling me or discussing it with me. I said that I would of appreciated him at least discussing it with me or telling me as I'd like for us to be transparent, open and honest with each other.

Unwritten- What more can I ask or how do I stop the "crumbs" without being demanding or appearing to be. As far as the nagging, I agree with you. Our definitions of "nagging" are quite different. More than once or twice for him is "nagging'.

If he has agreed to take a polygraph I would schedule one if I were you. It seems to me he gets caught doing shady things and never has a good reason for it..."I was just curious..." I would not be surprised to find out that you do not have all of the information you need about what has gone on during your marriage.

Getting serious about a poly will confirm that. If I'm wrong, great!

If he still has secrets from you, whether that is regarding the OW in question, another OW, porn, or anything else, it could explain his inability to go all in on recovery, as well as his SF issues with you.

Lets talk phone#'s. What number did he delete and/or block that he then UNdeleted/UNblocked without your knowledge? What was his reason for doing so?

Do you feel that he is all in on recovery? Do you feel that he is remorseful for what he has done, and is willing to do whatever he can to create a loving, safe M for you?

If not, there are your crumbs.

Partially that was written with regards to your original posts, where he was not giving you all info, was refusing a poly, etc. But even with regards to this thread, he does not seem remorseful to the extent that he is trying to create a loving and safe M for you. You OTOH seem to be doing backflips to create that for him. That will lead you to resentment and crumb land.

There is a difference between being 'demanding' and setting boundaries for yourself. This is certainly true after infidelity.

Saying you require XYZ to agree to recover your marriage after infidelity is NOT demanding. It is setting boundaries to protect yourself and your M from another A.

Requiring, for instance, a polygraph to make sure that you move forward with ALL the information regarding the A or anything else that might plague you, is not being demanding.

What kind of counseling are you doing? Are you working with the coaching center? I have only had one session with the coaching center, but plan to do more. I would highly suggest the online program and/or coaching with the center vs. traditional MC which can be anti MB and can cause more harm then good.

We are seeing a psychologist and it has helped a lot. The number that he unblocked was his former manager. I explained that anything dealing with his former employer is a trigger for me and any contact makes me uncomfortable. He has agreed and understands. He says he will do anything for our M but I still don't, deep down, feel that he is remorseful. He said he's willing to work on our M but doesn't want to waste his time if I'm not willing to work on it, forgive him and move on. He said in one of sessions that he does not need me for anything but that he wants me. Additionally, if I did not catch the affair it would of escalated to having sexual intercourse per his admission. He lied each and every time I confronted him until finally he admitted. He understands that he has boundary issues and I said that he cannot have any more female friends. In fact, when he gets a new job I would prefer something in a male dominated environment, preferably. Probably not possible but who knows. At some point he has to decide how much he values our marriage.

Honestly, I think at times he is all in on recovery while other times he is not. At times I think he stays with me just for convenience, safety and security. He has no job, no degree, and a small business that doesn't make much money. With me, he has a great lifestyle. If I ask him to do something, he will do it and I've learned that I've got to ask more often and not be so independent.

Like I said, at times I think he is 100% on board but the facebook incident, unblocking the number, and when he is viewing female models online (football cheerleaders) or celebrity clothing mishaps it makes me rethink everything. Especially when he says he still thinks of the OW insofar as how she is doing. It hurts and hurts a lot. That's why I mixed feelings whether he is willing AND able to have a loving and safe M.

hi helen. recovery is a long, hard journey even when you have a WH that is on board. you guys are not working recovery, and his continued "lapses" are not acceptable. he keeps doing what he wants, and just "apologizes" after. this is a big no no. you are basically in the pre-affair state, which typically leads to D.

we don't want that for you, so let's try to get you started. has the affair been exposed, and to whom. did he write a NC letter? i will have more Qs after you answer these ones.

Hi Letty,
Its been exposed to all of my family, his family, and his former work. I can't find the OW's family, tried but no luck. He didn't write the NC letter and at this point, I don't see a need to reignite anything. There's been no contact to my knowledge unless he has a prepaid phone hidden somewhere but I looked for one.

ok. NC is really important, because NC for life is imperative. you will see threads on the SAA board where someone is back, YEARS later, because the AP is back in the picture.

do you know the steps to recovery? which books have you read? have you coached with the harleys?

i would try more to find OWs family and expose. you need to make sure the a is deader than dead so she doesn't come back in the future.

i can't stress enough how important it is to follow the very narrow path to recovery: NC, EPs, UA, RH, POJA. what were your conditions to recover the M?

Question- Its been since late October and there hasn't been any contact. My thinking is that its too late to send the letter. I know she has moved on from checking her facebook page and is back dating. To me, and I may be wrong or not seeing the big picture:), why do it at this point?

No coaching with Harleys, cant afford it right now but I haven't ruled it out, just waiting to get some extra money.

Her mother remarried and I don't know the name. Also don't know her grandmothers name either. I tried but no luck.

I said I want complete honesty, transparency, and communication. Also I want my EN's met as well as his. We have to follow the POJA. I also said no more female friends as he has boundary issues, access to his passwords, and he has to earn trust back. I also said no more porn or looking at anything resembling porn. Forgot to add that he worked for a chain and that I do not want him going into any of those stores, at least locally, as its a trigger for me and the possibility of contact (whether direct or indirect) is possible. I don't feel comfortable with it and he agreed.

I read Surviving an Affair and he also read Recovering from and Affair from another author. He understands how I feel and it will take time. Its helped both of us actually. The Dr. that we are seeing also has been great too and there's been positive results there too.

ok. three months out is still new, and there's lots of things to work on and start making into new habits. this is a lengthy post, so consider most of the sentences bullet points!


do you have all the info you require about the affair? if so, you must STOP talking about it. continued conversations about this painful past only hold back the present and future. but - you must have had all of your Qs answered first. you can tell your H that you are ready to put it into the past once all of your Qs have been answered. if they haven't, take some time to make a list and have a big conversation about it. by time, i mean at least several days, because you will think of other things. also, you may come up with more Qs from your conversation. you are entitled to know everything you want to (and this differs for all BSs). once you know everything, that's it. he should have written out a timeline with all details that he can share with you.

is he saying *now* that he doesn't know if he's "in love" with you? the timing on that wasn't clear to me.

yes, it does hurt.

congratulations on your weight loss. is PA one of his top ENs? what test were these results for?

it doesn't sound like HE has eliminated LBs (racist comments, cigarrette). have you done the LB questionnaire?

tv watching should not be part of your UA time. you are not focusing on the top intimate ENs when you are watching tv.

has he been a lingerie kinda guy in the past?

i would get the poly, and one of the Qs should be related to any form of contact w/OW.

judging by your sample conversation ("no."), radical honesty is not forthcoming. coaching with steve harley would really point that out to him!

you should be doing this anyway. both of you will change ENs from time to time. plus, you both need to be aware of *exactly* how to meet the need.

that's great & all, but is he aware that to stay in the M with you, he needs to actively meet yours? and you've shared the ENQ with specifics as per the instructions? also, what consequences do you have in place for EP breaks? (unblocking phone number, looking at girls' fb pages.)

are you sure you want to be married to him? what needs of yours is he meeting? in this paragraph, he kinda sounds like a pet. the kind that chews your shoes.

is it clear HOW to do the EPs? how to be honest? how to be transparent?

i would be wary of spending money on a psychologist when it would be far better value for dollar by coaching w/the harleys. is your counsellor at least an MB advocate? you want to focus on putting the romantic love back in your M. everything else is filler.

read this: can't we just forgive and forget? (read the series, not just the one.)

withdrawal does take a long time. however, i think there is still contact. you need to amp up your snooping. you should have already a keylogger on your computer and on his phone.

i don't want you to be too chastened by my post, helen. it's still pretty early days, but you two need to have the recovery programme front and centre and be actively working it every day. recovery is a long and narrow path. i don't want to see you stuck in a FR if we can help it. i struggled with my own H for 6 months after DD - it turned out he was still getting hits off the OW. not direct contact, but a sublevel (checking fb, sending messages [that she didn't respond to], etc). and there i was working my hinie off! if i had known about MB then, it would have been different, and 6 months down the road i was NOT having any of that bull puckie. you are lucky to have the tools and a working knowledge already at your disposal. let's get going on them.

Helen you are getting great advice from Letty.

You have kind of skirted the poly that I keep insisting on. I keep insisting on it because after years of hearing lies (and a year of listening to shady things on here) I think I have a pretty good BS meter. My BS meter is telling me that you do NOT have all the info about this and/or other A's. And I am pretty sure you know that.

Not having all the info, having a gut instinct tell you that he is still hiding things, will keep you from ever feeling recovered. It is painful to find out the whole truth, every new detail cuts like a knife. But I have heard it said here many times to rip off the bandaid in one fell swoop, rather than taking it off slowly over years.

Also, not having all of the truth will keep HIM from investing in recovery. My WH has told me a thousand times he could not look me in the eye, was distant and detached for many years, would not LET me fill his LB and would not LET himself fall in love with me, because he always knew he had these secrets. An intimate connection would have put his secrets front and center as a big hipocrasy. So he kept me at arms length, and that would have continued had I not insisted on (and eventaully followed through with) a poly.

Really, other than a couple hundred dollars, what do you have to lose.

That 'deep down' feeling is called gut instinct. One thing I have learned is, trust your gut instinct. When our rational minds want to tell us one thing, when our coping mechanisms want to hide the painful truth from our conciousness, our gut instinct will tell it like it is. Trust it. If you deep down don't feel the remorseful, he's not.

Many of the things he says screams a lack of remorse. Talking about the OW is such a flattering way, is like spitting in your face after everything else he has done to you. How anyone would love to be with a 22 year old (not true) and how he still thinks of her. That does not show remorse, quite the opposite. He is consciously continuing to harm you and break you down.

Back to honesty. "He lied each and every time until finally he admitted." How do you know that the one final time was the 'truth' when there were so many lies? You don't. Your gut instinct is telling you that. A poly will confirm whether he continues to lie.

I concur with Letty, when you are able to round up the money (and I would make this a HIGH priority, remember divorce will be ten fold), counsel with the Harleys. The online program is a great way to do the MB work and have accountability for a 'set' cost too. Also, would he be willing to post here? I think having the MBers give him some re education would help.

Letty- The tests were to rule out why he has erectile dysfunction and lack of desire. Testosterone is fine, off HBP, everything ok. Dr. thinks he's depressed as well as the Dr. we see for therapy.

No, he's not meeting my needs. I tell him and it doesn't seem sincere in terms of that he "wants" to show affection rather it seems like just going thru the motions. Does that make any sense? The dogs get more affection from him than I!

I'd like to do the coaching with the Harley's and will do so when I get some money. With him out of work, a lot is placed on me and there's no extra, pretty stretched out and stressed out too!

At the time of the A, no he was not in love with me. He said, after pulling out of him, that he didn't care about me. Guess that's normal. Now, he says he is but is he sincere? He's lied so much to me and I'm not feeling the love.

Unwritten- I thought he was being honest but new details come out. Why is it that I feel like a scumbag having to ask for a poly? Why I feeling so uncomfortable and skittish? I know its not that I'm afraid to hear something I may not want to. Either way, I've decided to ask for one and am waiting for a call back from the poly guy. I need to know once and for all what happened the night she was in my house. Soon after that night, text messaging skyrocketed. One night it was over 400....something happened in my opinion. Honesty is very important to me.

My questions so far-
Have you ever told me you were doing inventory at work and lied?

Have you ever told me you had an event to work or meeting with a client and lied?

Did you ever have sexual intercourse with OW?

Did you ever try to have sexual intercourse with OW but had erection problems?

Are you sexually attracted to me?

Are you in love with me?

Did you have sex of any type with OW in our home?

Did you kiss the OW in our home?

We you planning on meeting OW while I was away on my trip?

Have you ever met OW outside of work for sex of any kind?

Have you had any communications with OW since Thanksgiving?

Do you have a prepaid phone?

Did she ever send you pictures of her naked?

I saw a text in which he felt bad about cumming too soon, he says it was her during oral/fondling sex. I don't think so. The Sunday night before I left for my trip, there was a lot of texting in the early morning hours, I think he was planning something since she wanted to be somewhere "other than on the floor staring at trash cans and hearing delivery trucks". Perfect opportunity in my opinion.. Something happened and he needs to be honest with me.

I'm following my instinct and if its meant to be for us to be together, fine...we'll work on it but if he wants to continue to lie and not be on board with recovery, I'm moving on.

Its ironic that I've always said that if my spouse ever cheated on me that I'd leave him ASAP and here I am...guess you never know what you'd do until you're in that situation.

it's good to have this info. you will have to play around with ADs until you find one/dosage that works. be aware that many ADs will lower desire, so be clear to your doctor you want one that doesn't.

two issues here. one - is he doing what you've asked to show affection, in response to the ENQ, and you feel like it's just motions? if so, that's ok. MB is conditioning. appreciate his efforts; they will become habit and natural. you don't want to put him off if he is doing it. we all start off feeling like we're acting. it becomes real.

however, if he is not doing what you've specified in the ENQ, that needs a RH discussion. don't compare his actions with the dogs. this will get you nowhere.

i get it. put H to work selling stuff on ebay until you have the $$.

firstly, he doesn't know what he was, other than high. it is also how they justify their actions. "well, i didn't love BW, so it was ok." knowing this doesn't make it any easier. and yes, the lying is worse than the physical actions. it puts doubts in your head that are hard to get rid of, especially in the early days when you feel they are just playacting the ENs.

what UW said about intuition is true. i always go with my gut, now that i know it's smarter than i am. don't feel bad about demanding the poly. it's part of your conditions, and will be the only way you can get the truth.

these are too many. they can be narrowed down. some of them are irrelevant. your poly guy will likely only ask 3. my first attempt:

1. have you had sexual interaction, including either or both oral sex and intercourse, with OW?
2. do you have a mobile phone other than the (iphone or whatever) personal phone you use to communicate with your wife?
3. have you had any contact, email, text, verbal, or in person with OW since XXX?

i say first try, because i always need to think things over for longer. you want to hit the most important issues to you.

also, just because the polygrapher will only ask three doesn't mean you don't give your H more - you should provide him with a list of questions (you can use your list) a day or two prior to the test. "the poly will address the issues in these questions." don't give him the exact 3 in advance. this gives him an opportunity to come clean w/you before the test, which can then confirm his responses.


i'm sorry, helen, but they have a PA. it's very clear by the comments in your last post. keep that in mind when you're thinking poly.

that's what the poly's for.

we've all said that, for sure. you just don't know until it happens to you. that's why it's so easy for others, who haven't been cheated on, to say "just leave him!" one of the benefits of being at MB is that you are with others who have had the same experience.

The three questions I have is if anything happened in our house, whether he still loves me, and if he has a prepaid phone or uses any other means to contact the OW and if has since November. I have a call in and will probably hear back on Tuesday.

The encouraging thing is that he is doing things to get into the habit like you stated. That gives me hope:)

I agree that they had a PA. She's a wild girl, into drinking, pot, sex, etc so I'm pretty sure she wasn't hanging around for nothing or developed feeling had nothing happened.

i am glad to hear that he is making the effort. that is a positive sign.

good to narrow down the Qs, but we need a poly person in here (someone who's done one - almost impossible to get one here in nz). i think the "love" question is too subjective for a poly. however, the good news about that is this: as long as you two are spending enough quality UA time meeting the four most intimate needs, romantic love will bloom! it doesn't happen right away, helen, but it does happen. once those LB$ deposits reach a threshold (and you keep depositing), he will be in love w/you, whether or not he is "in love" with you now.

so helen, it's the weekend. how are you spending your UA time this weekend?

could someone address the point in bold, please?