There seems to be so much pain and so much divorce on this board these days...and not many success stories.<P>So I wonder...aside from LoneStar/Petunia, DuncanMac/Suse, and presumably StevieB/Heather, since they are no longer here, how many of you feel that your following the Harley methods has been successful?<P>As for me? Well, I've been in permanent, nondisclosure Plan A since March, and yes, things are better. I still feel vulnerable, still "hook into" H's moods more than I should. But it's better. OTOH, my H wasn't involved in a full-blown affair, I don't think; just an "inappropriate friendship" that may or not have become sexual on perhaps one or so occasions.<P>I just wonder, from reading some of you, if these scars on a marriage last forever....if betrayed spouses always live in fear...if betrayers always long for the OP...if it's really all worthwhile.

Hi D&C - <P>I haven't posted for a while because I will NOT be one of those success stories. I feel that my attitude has been a bit on the negative side and don't want that to bleed into all the positive energy here on the forum.<P>Although I really gave Harley's methods a sincere and concerted effort, they fell short of the mark in my case. My wife seems to be completely immune to all methods. At first, I thought her affair was textbook because I could see the progression as described (almost to a "T") in the many books I've read. However, as the divorce train keeps on rollin' (initiated by my wife) I get the feeling that this has always been an "exit" affair. In 5 months, she has NEVER expressed any willingness to return to me. She still lives with the OM as far as I know. I expect to be divorced by years end. (Happy new year to me...yeah right).<P>Despite all this, I still wholeheartedly believe that Harley's principles work well, just not in all cases.

D&C -- we've been seeing mixed results because the Harley methods will really only work if both partners are fully committed to it. When one or the other has doubts or is not committed fully, "Your Mileage May Vary."<P>I also wonder about long term successes. Do people still have great marriages 10 or 15 years later after applying the Harley principles? Are they still doing the Harley principles?<P>I don't know if I'll ever recover fully from what's happened to me. My wife can fulfill my emotional needs til she's blue in the face... Will it ever make a dent in me? I still maintain that you just can't fall in love with any ole person that fulfills your emotional needs. There <B>are</B> some intangibles involved.<P>okay, enuff silly rambling from me...<BR>--andy

hi d&c,<BR>I suppose you could say my h and I are a success story, by following a combo method approach. I am not the best at following harleys advice all the time! Not really someone to teach them-i did plenty of lovebusters, etc.!!

Harley's methods applied perfectly to a new marriage would make a wonderful marriage. His Needs Her Needs needs to be read by ever newlywed couple. <P>My H and I finally know how we need to treat each other, but after 14 years of bad habits and the devestating pain of an extended affair by my H, I'm not sure Harley's methods are enough to save the marriage. For one thing, it is much harder to follow Harley's methods when the relationship is strained.<P>No amount of good treatment can take away the memory of the bad. The scars are there no matter what. <P>Each case is different and each person's level and ability to love is different. It takes such a tremendous amount of love in order to deal with the pain an affair causes and the love has to be on both sides of the relationship.<P>I think Harley's principles are perfect, but unfortunately they must be applied to humans who are far from perfect.<P>I do not feel they will save my marriage. Maybe my needs are too strong and too demanding, or maybe my H just doesn't have the ability to love deeply enough. I may never know.

A qualified yes, they work. I was Plan A all the way since last December when he asked me to divorce him. He wouldn't say why, just "I am not happy with this marriage". So I read like crazy and MB made the most sense to me, combined with "Love Must Be Tough" by James Dobson. <BR>Not lovebusting was so hard, but the day after his confession in August when the affair had been over since Spring, he said "I want you to know that over the past year you have addressed every complaint I ever had about our marriage. Maybe it's too late to be telling you this, but I wanted you to know that I did notice. You heaped coals of guilt on my head all last year by trying so hard to please me."<P>After three weeks of him staying at a pastor friends house and visiting us/babysitting so I could keep going to my classes, I sent him an email:<P>"Do not remember the former things, nor consider the things of old. Behold, I will do a new thing, now it shall spring forth; shall you not know it? I will even make a road in the wilderness and rivers in the desert." Isaiah 43:18, 19."<P>He responded by asking me out to dinner that night and saying that he couldn't understand how I could forgive him, but that he was sorry for betraying my trust in him.<P>It has been a struggle each day to keep from lovebusting. Some days I burst into tears while we are making love. I know that must discourage him a good deal. <BR>But things are 1,000 times better than they were two months ago, and seem to keep moving in the right direction. I know that some situations are more complex than this, some less. <P>In our situation, with a really strong support system from both our families, and a great church, we will probably make it. <P>At least I hope so.<P>------------------<BR>When you go through deep waters and great trouble, I will be with you. Isaiah 43:2<P><BR>

The Harley methods have helped me to learn how not to treat him. If we both could have used these concepts years ago.... We are friends and still seeing each other. I don't think that would have been possible without the Harley methods, because I am and can be "love bust" queen with my mouth. I have really learned to keep it shut and to think about things before I say them.<P>Don't know if we are a success story or not. That remains to be seen. However, the methods have helped us to get where we are.

I believe I discovered the affair one or two weeks before I picked up SAA and found this site. I was naturally into plan A.<P>Since H was walking away from affair, had not even considered leaving marriage and was horrified by his own behavior, we pretty much only had to recover and rebuild, or there was that continued phone contact weirdness that muddied things up.<P>Anyway, of course it goes without saying, being nice, trying to meet your spouses needs as he or she sees them and not being mean, is good for a marriage.<P>I have kind of been on plan A with everyone my whole life, so it was no leap for me.<P>The Policy of Joint Agreement is nice in theory and probibly works when you and your spouse both want completely entwined life. If my H and I spent the energy it would take to modify every action we took so the other was jumping up and down with glee, we'd never take any action. I think both my H and I agree that we fully support one another in our individual pursuits and our commen interests. With a small family, careers and a hectic life, we simply can not be joined at the hip. Much of our life is about division of labor and just getting through the day. Personally I need my H to be as committed to the marriage as I am (he is) and be as cooperative as possible in growing and learning to improve our communications and our understanding of each other.<P>I have probibly learned more from other books I have read, because I think whatever problems we had/have are more communication or misintretation rather than commitment.<P>I know my situation is different than most.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

D&C:<P>They were very effective in my case. But they took lots of time to get to that level of effectiveness, and I have plenty of emotional scars left over (but I heal fast).<P>I think that these principles work tremendously well in a good marriage. BOTL suggests HN/HN as a prerequisite for marriage (gotta love that "Physical Attraction" section... ). I would suggest his newer "Four Gifts of Love", which covers all aspects of his philosophy (Needs, Lovebusters, Time, Honesty).<P>D&C: I was reading some more of Susan Page's book, and I see remarkable similarities to it, Harley's stuff, and Michele Weiner-Davis's stuff. Very similar threads run throughout.<P>airheart---you will get over this eventually. Just because you can't see it now doesn't mean it isn't going to happen. There's really no such thing as an "intangable" that matters---if it's "intangable", you're not going to notice it. The real issue with you will be that you may need to deconstruct the affair to find those subtle things that the OW did to "make a difference", and then get your wife on board with the program. But I still just think that you're suffering from withdrawal. Give it a full year, and you'll see steady improvement. <P>

It is so difficult to judge what does and doesn't work. unfortunately, there's no way to have a "control sample" to test the results of different approaches. Nevertheless, I have opinions, even if they aren't grounded in data.<P>1. If both spouses are committed to making things work, many different approaches will work (Harley and others).<P>2. If the betrayer accepts responsibility and has remorse, most betrayeds will work through this with them. Many approaches that focus on open communication, respect, and meeting needs will work.<P>3. If the betraying spouse has no remorse, blames the betrayed for everything, and won't end the affair, very little will work. In this circumstance, the only way out is for the betrayer to emerge from the fantasy and start accepting some responsibility. This is totally betrayer dependent. The Harley method gives the betrayed three important things: 1) a plan, 2) the tools to avoid making the situation worse, and 3) advice on how to wait the maximum amount of time for the betrayer to emerge. These are important things, but I don't think they save the marriage. The betrayers have to do that. But the waiting provides the betrayer the time to reach description 2 above, and then it can be effective.<P>My opinion is that Harley's writings on Love Busters and Emotional Needs are really excellent. The problem is, those of us stuck in the waiting game never get to use them to the full extent. I can see how my non-lovebusting has kept me in the game, but I don't see any payback from my efforts to meet emotional needs.<P>Regardless, I don't know what would have happened to me if I didn't find out about this place. It's been good for my sanity and given me hope.

I think they work fairly well in a relationship where both people are committed. (But then lots of methods or no method at all works in that situation, with varying success.) In a relationship where one person wants out, Plan A - Plan B is a good start, but what you are really doing is letting them go before you are ready to let go yourself. Sometimes a person will change their mind. A lot of people who want out will decide they really don't want out after a few years. Of course, on that same time frame a lot of people who thought they wanted to stay in will decide in fact they are better off out.<P>I believe that if you don't have two committed people, you have to let it go.<P>

I'm not quite a success story, but things are on that path for my wife and I. <P>I can't say it's Harley's methods alone that have gotten me to where I am. Sure his material helped a lot. But, I was 4 months in to my personal hell before I found one of his books. This forum helped more than I ever expected it to. I also have a very large collection of non-Harley books that have helped. Probably the most effective tool for me was prayer. <P>I have been in what is labeled Plan A since Feb. Some things worked, some didn't. Summary for me:<P>Year Ago<BR>--------<BR>Wife said she did not love me any more and wanted out. She no longer found me physically attractive. Said she would never be intimate with me again. We talked for maybe 1-2 minutes a day. No longer hugged, kissed, or anything else. I was still oblivious to anything being wrong (pretty sad) until she let it all out. She decided to stay for the kids only.<P>Now<BR>--------<BR>Wife does say she loves me; not as often as I want to hear but it's a start. We talk for 1-2 hours a day and never run out of things to say. We date regularly. We hug. We kiss. We touch a whole bunch. And we . We are friends again and we are slowing returning to intimacy in our marriage. She calls to tell where she is if she is late or if there is a change in plans. We touch a whole bunch. I used to rely on her emotional state for my own emotions. If i could ever get her on here, I'm sure she would say the changes in me are night and day over the way I was a year ago. I cherish her and no longer have any regrets for things I should have done. <P>The scars from this ordeal are still there. But like scars on our body, I think they will serve as a reminder to an horrible time. I don't live in fear of her leaving me anymore. If she decided to go, I couldn't stop her. It would hurt but I know that I could live life without her (it's just better with her). She also knows that I could not go through this again. Her bond to the OM is fading as the days pass. <P>I'm happier than I've been in a long time. I believe she is too.<P>SHA

Sir Hurts Alot, Thanks for the encouragement as it has been 10 weeks since D-Day. There are good days (more of them lately) and tough ones. My w said she love me for the first time last weekend since discovery. I am looking forward to a better relationship one year from now especially with encouragement from you and others. Thanks.<P>by the way, Harley's book was the first I read followed by several more. This site saved me the immediate weeks following discovery and helped me deal with the pain. Susan Page and Peggy Vaughan have good ones too. There is something useful in all of them.<P>------------------<BR>tanker0076<BR>

Have the Harley methods been successfult for me?<BR>Absolutely!<P>Is my marriage restored?<BR>Not even close!<P>Succesful in that I am "Surviving An Affair."<BR>Not succesful (so far) in restoring the marriage.<P>I will not live in fear forever. Remember it definitely.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

I would,nt say we are out of the woods yet, but our marriage is alot better that it was even prior to the affair.<P>We are still working real hard to resolve all of the messes that occured during our lives. I met with the pastor the other night and he confirmed that if you skip over all the work it is bound to happen again. Well let me tell you it is alot of work! Not just the affair but things we have lived through our entire lives and taught us to be the way we are.<P>I don't feel Harley's methods in themselves are a roadmap for success, however it does steer you down the right path. I know WE will benefit fron this information as will the rest of you.<P><BR>1 year out of this mess and it gets better all the time! Hang in there all!!!!<BR>

I can't say Harleys plans helped me. I'm like Shattered1 in that I think my w's affair was an exit affair.<BR>Plan A didn't really work for me as w would see om at work in the evenings and then call him when she got home and I was in bed. So she was getting best of both worlds.<P>Plan B didn't work because om paid for her week long stay at hotel and then helped her pay for apartment.<P>Affair only broke down when his w gave him an ultimatium in combination with my w threatening to take the kids from me.<P>We are still separated with no clear signs that she wants to reconcile. Conversations about her coming home only last 1 minute, then subject changes.

I think that the MB methods helped me in that I'm better able to control my behavior. I think that I'm becoming a more considerate person and better at communicating. It's getting easier to speak to my H with love and respect when I'm upset with him, rather than getting all bent out of shape and crying and screaming at him. I'm also getting more assertive when dealing with others, and handling touchy business situations better.<P>I do think that I've gotten better results from my H, though, on the few times I blew up and lovebusted; but, I probably wouldn't have gotten those results if I hadn't been doing Plan A prior to and in between blowups. I don't know why the blowups caused him to start doing better in his behavior toward me, unless it was because he realized that I was really getting totally fed up with getting nothing in return for my efforts.

It definitely has worked for me and my wife. She never has known that I am using his methods, never really cared. This means I am disagreeing with the people on this board that suggest that both people have to be committed to the principles.<P>I have Plan A'ed my wife for one year and we are finally out of the woods. She is "in love" with me for the first time in our marriage and now says OM was a mistake.<P>I agree with Chris that if you apply the principles, you win either way. If your marriage doesn't survive, you will have no regrets for doing giving it your all. It will make your closer to God than you ever experienced as well because only he can help you to truly survive the affair.<P>God bless,<BR>Struggling

Dazed although at the time I had no idea this site existed, I followed what we call plan A, and I can say that it did work for us.<BR>The affair went on for about 4 months after discovery ( which was as it started ) it was time needed to reconnect, fix what needed to be fixed recommitment on his part and all the regular stages, but over one year is passed and things are still great and as I say many times even better than before the affair ( sad ina way, that we needed something like this to wake up, but true nevertheless )<P>Yes I do believe that Harley's methods work, although I stree as always that each situation is different and needs to be worked in a slight different way. However the basics seem to be more or less the same.<BR>It is important when following any plan to allow for a great range of variants and flexability. After all we know who we are and how we react, and we know our spouses. SO what might work in some cases might backfire in others.<BR>But again, in general I do feel this methods work.<P>ALso although I agree that both spouses need to be in agreement and committed to rebuilding, I have to say that even when that doesn't happen it can still work providing that one is following the plan. <BR>I will write more about this tomorrow though because I'm startin work earlier tommorow and I'm dead tired. <P>Take care<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

It depends on which harley's methods you are talking about. If your are talking about "Surviving an Affair" then I think they work. It doesn't take both parties. Look at the first case. We all show that they work because we have survived, maybe not with our marriage intact, or where we want to be. We are all impatient people we want everything to work now, and I am one of the most impatient ones around. He says it take a long time depending on the affair.<P>Now if you are talking about his methods to rebuild your marriage after you have survived the affair, then yes it takes a commitment on both spouses part. But you can't have a commitment until you are compeletly through withdrawal, and that takes even longer.<P>So I don't think any of us are fall enough along in this to say wheter they are successful or not. Just my thoughts on the subject. <P>------------------<BR>di<P>