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Dude, sorry I'm joining this party late, but let me ask you a question.
She had a physical affair you know of, She's obviously engaged in an EA, and probably a PA, with her boss, you and she are living apart, and she says she's not sure she wants to stay in the marriage.
EXACTLY WHAT ARE YOU ATTEMPTING TO SAVE?
If the point is not to be known as having been part of a "failed" marriage, and not be labeled as a "divorced person", you are giving waaaaaay to much weight to the semantics. Dude, your WW has already "failed" you marriage. Not facing the reality, and desperately clinging to useless "status" definitions is wasteful of your life.
(And please do not respond by saying "But I still love her......." NO, YOU DON'T. You might have loved the woman you courted and married. She is dead! If you could still "love" such a witch as she has become, you'd happily accept her ongoing infidelities, and her physical absence, and you'd not be here trying to fix those.)
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I just have records of calls and texts.
If you do not have spyware on her phone, you don't know the content of her calls and texts. Moreover, you are only viewing the records of 1 phone. You discovered her first affair by checking her phone and then jumped to the conclusion that she had no further contact because you didn't find any more evidence on that phone. The reason you didn't find additional evidence is probably because she got a second phone that she uses to communicate with OM.
I also have her email passwords.
You have some of her email passwords. Since you haven't installed any spyware, you have no way of knowing that you have all of her email and internet website passwords.
There has been no contact with guy in Cali...he is single.
You haven't verified this.
There has ben no contact with boss...he is married. obviously there is work contact, but nothing outside of that that I can determine anyway.
Work contact is contact, and you have not verified that she doesn't have personal contact with him as well.
I asked if she wanted to take time away for us to see others. Both of us see others or her. She said no, I plan on being faithful during this time and dont want that. Both emotional affairs happened simultaneously
You haven't done any serious snooping, so you have no way of knowing that she has never been in a physical affair.
*Some behaviors are typical of people who are actively engaged in an extramarital affair. Your wife is demonstrating those behaviors; that is why everyone is telling you that you need to approach this as an active affair.
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ML and NG, but wouldn't Dr. Harley only recommend that AFTER the wayward spouse has been given the opportunity to end contact and recover the marriage???
CC I think you should expose and demand No Contact which would mean she would have to leave her job. If she then refuses, then I would walk away. But I would definitely not do as you are doing now, which is nothing.
Me BW: 30
WH: 33
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ML and NG, but wouldn't Dr. Harley only recommend that AFTER the wayward spouse has been given the opportunity to end contact and recover the marriage??? Dr Harley recommends what I posted above. Did you read it?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Here we go, BetrayedP, I had posted it above: FYI, you are not disagreeing with me, Just, but with Dr Harley and basic common sense. Dr Harley recommends moving on in these situations where there are no children and very minimal history, so you are dead wrong when you say he "makes no judgement." He damn sure does.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I did. I was just wondering if he just meant right off the bat or after the wayward had had a chance to repent. I suppose he must have a lot of experience with couples who've given it a go and then still ended up going through D later on. It just seems to trivialize marriage vows to simply say cut ties.
Anyway, I would go with what the vets say CC. So I guess that means cut your losses. Sorry for any confusion caused.
Me BW: 30
WH: 33
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I did. I was just wondering if he just meant right off the bat or after the wayward had had a chance to repent. I suppose he must have a lot of experience with couples who've given it a go and then still ended up going through D later on. It just seems to trivialize marriage vows to simply say cut ties. Well, the marriage vows were broken when she had her affairs so there is nothing here to save. The point is that sometimes it is much easier to move on than it is to attempt recovery in a marriage with no history and no children. Recovering a marriage with a serial cheater is very hard under the best of circumstances, and he is far from that. Marriage Builders is NOT a marriage-at-all-cost program. Sometimes the definition of success is divorce and I would suggest this is one of cases.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I asked if she wanted to take time away for us to see others. Both of us see others or her. She said no, I plan on being faithful during this time and dont want that. Obviously, she is not going to tell you the truth when she is actively engaged in an affair. (You know this from common sense and from personal experience.) So it is illogical of you to assume she is being honest when you question her on that topic. I agree with Mel. Dr. Harley has said that some marriages aren't worth saving. Whatever you decide to do, I hope you will be able to look back on this period of your life and feel that you made the right decision.
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...wouldn't Dr. Harley only recommend that AFTER the wayward spouse has been given the opportunity to end contact and recover the marriage???
Absolutely, BP! Now what would you call these?
So i went to grab her phone one night...She grabbed the phone and reacted odd...she expressed deep remorse and said how awful she felt...She kept saying she just like feeling good and hearing the compliments and that's why she did it.
broke the news to me that it doesn't feel the same and she doesn't know if she is attracted to me romantically anymore (or) wants to be married...She says she is deciding if she wants to be married or not...She says she just needs space and to make decisions for her and wants to focus on her career.
So exactly what part of the text in blue do you think is consistent with taking the opportunity to end contact and recover the marriage??
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"A relationship where there is not extraordinary care is not worth much." Dr Bill Harley on 1-30-13 radio show discussing a woman whose husband was a serial cheater. Been married 20 years and with children, btw.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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There has ben no contact with boss...he is married. obviously there is work contact, but nothing outside of that that I can determine anyway. IDK I asked if she wanted to take time away for us to see others. Both of us see others or her. She said no, I plan on being faithful during this time and dont want that. Both emotional affairs happened simultaneously All this means no contact outside of work that you can see. This affair can be going on 9 to 5. WW and boss/OM flirt all day eveyday. Then com break time, lunch time, they get it on behind locked doors. Expose OMW? Cause if WW won't quit, OMW will push OM to fire WW.
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Listen to Melody and get out. It makes no sense. She CHOSE to have an A, it was no accident, no revenge to an A of yours. There are lots of good people out there who would THINK before hurting you so much.
Me: BW, 41
WH: 46
Married 7 years, together 12
DD: 5
OW: 39
D-Day: 11 April
Plan B since 10/3/12
Divorced 11/12
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"FYI, you are not disagreeing with me, Just, but with Dr Harley and basic common sense.Dr Harley recommends moving on in these situations where there are no children and very minimal history, so you are dead wrong when you say he "makes no judgement." He damn sure does." Oh, so a marriage with no children and a minimal history is not worth fighting for? That's common sense?
And what "minimal history?" They have known each other 10 years and have been married for 4.5 years. Up until she committed adultery this had been a happy, long-term relationship.
I have not heard Dr. Harley say to just give up if there are no children involved and the marriage is fairly new. Maybe he has, but can you be sure he would say that for THIS case? Every situation has different wrinkles. Ccooper, maybe you should e-mail Dr. Harley. He will give you his take. I had a lot of folks on my thread giving me advice that Dr. Harley contradicted when he wrote back to me.
What I have heard Dr. Harley say is that there are many situations where he would not himself try to save the marriage, but the BS he was working with did want to try, and using his program, they successfully recovered the marriage. "It makes no sense for a young man with no children to stay in a marriage that fell apart so quickly when he has nothing holding him there. Especially after TWO affairs. This is someone who is looking for affairs, not someone who fell into it blindly." Marriages have been recovered where there were two affairs. And if he is Catholic his vows ARE "holding him there." That is just pisspoor bad judgement. He is not held to his wedding vows if she has left him for an affair. Sorry, you missed the boat on this one. 
Again, that's not what my faith says about vows. But regardless of one's religious beliefs, if ccooper opts to save his marriage, I don't think he is missing the boat. If anything is worth saving, its a marriage.
You know your wife better than any of us here. We see a woman whose mind has been kidnapped by aliens. We know that she is a liar and a cheat. She is abusing you.
Someone here told me once in my thread that my old, loving wife was there beneath the shell of what she had become. I did not believe it. But a year-and-a-half later, I see that its indeed true. Every case is different, but I don't believe in throwing in the towel without a fight, especially if the woman you knew for the 9 years before this did not have any wayward tendencies.
It's your call.
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Oh, so a marriage with no children and a minimal history is not worth fighting for? That's common sense? I would hope so. It should be common sense that a marriage with a serial cheater would be hard to save. "A relationship where there is not extraordinary care is not worth much." Dr Bill Harley on 1-30-13 radio show discussing a woman whose husband was a serial cheater. Been married 20 years and with children, btw. And what "minimal history?" They have known each other 10 years and have been married for 4.5 years. Up until she committed adultery this had been a happy, long-term relationship. Short term marriage with minimal investment. I have not heard Dr. Harley say to just give up if there are no children involved and the marriage is fairly new. Maybe he has, but can you be sure he would say that for THIS case? If you haven't heard him say it, then you haven't been listening to the radio show. I have listened to about 90% [hundreds] of his radio shows since 2006. Every situation has different wrinkles. Ccooper, maybe you should e-mail Dr. Harley. He will give you his take. I had a lot of folks on my thread giving me advice that Dr. Harley contradicted when he wrote back to me. That is highly doubtful because it is against the TOS to give contradictory advice here. [color:#3366FF]Marriages have been recovered where there were two affairs. And if he is Catholic his vows ARE "holding him there." That is NOT a MB teaching. MB teaches the opposite. What you are proposing here is unconditional love, which cannot be supported in the Bible, much less Marriage Builders. Again, that's not what my faith says about vows. But regardless of one's religious beliefs, if ccooper opts to save his marriage, I don't think he is missing the boat. If anything is worth saving, its a marriage. [/color] If you are a Christian, then divorcing over adultery is acceptable to God. Even so, the purpose here is not to promote your personal religious views but to promote Dr Harley's views, which are fully supported by the Bible. Cooper, I would strongly suggest you follow Dr Harley's advice and abandon this weak marriage before you lose more. The only possible way to save your marriage is if your wife agrees to RADICAL changes in her lifestyle. I seriously doubt she will do that. And to Justthe3ofus, I would remind you that Marriage Builders is NOT a marriage-at-all-cost forum. That is your own personal agenda. Telling someone in a young marriage to a serial cheater is pisspoor judgement, IMO.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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You know your wife better than any of us here. We see a woman whose mind has been kidnapped by aliens. We know that she is a liar and a cheat. She is abusing you. No he doesn't know her better than any of us. He is the LEAST OBJECTIVE person on this thread, and telling him what you think he wants to hear does not help give him clarity about his situation.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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[quote=Justthe3ofus]
And to Justthe3ofus, I would remind you that Marriage Builders is NOT a marriage-at-all-cost forum. That is your own personal agenda. Telling someone in a young marriage to a serial cheater is pisspoor judgement, IMO. I am not advocating marriage-at-all-costs. I never suggested anything close to that. You are cherry picking, ML. I am advocating fighting for marriage using the program, which is ccooper's choice to make or not make. I even suggested he seek the advice of Dr. Harely via e-mail since he is the expert. How is that advancing my own agenda? And the "pisspoor judgment" DJ is getting a little tired, ML. ccooper, sorry for the distraction. Dr. Harley's radio show e-mail address is mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. His wife Joyce reads the e-mails and will e-mail you back if your question is going to be answered on the show.
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I am not advocating marriage-at-all-costs. I never suggested anything close to that. You are cherry picking, ML. Actually you are by recommending this man "fight" for his marriage. That is marriage-at-all-cost and not what Harley recommends. I am advocating fighting for marriage using the program, which is ccooper's choice to make or not make. I even suggested he seek the advice of Dr. Harely via e-mail since he is the expert. How is that advancing my own agenda? You know, why email Dr Harley about something on which he comments all time? To fish for a different answer? And yes, you have an agenda to push him into saving this very crippled marriage. And the "pisspoor judgment" DJ is getting a little tired, ML. I know of no other way to define such dreadful advice. And I am not trying to fill your lovebank so I am not concerned about making a "DJ." cooper, hopefully you take a reasoned and rational approach to this situation, rather than a silly marriage at all cost position. The only way your marriage will survive is if your wife makes RADICAL changes. If not, you are facing more affairs in the future. This will be your future. No marriage is worth that. On the other hand, if you left the marriage, you could find someone who is marriage material and have a happy, fulfilling relationship. You can't have that if you are chasing a serial cheater who has no interest in your marriage. You can have short term pain and long term gain by leaving or short term pain and long term pain by staying. It's your choice ultimately, but we are here to help you make decisions based on sound judgment rather than an irrational, marriage-at-all-cost approach.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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And if he is Catholic his vows ARE "holding him there."
Jttou, from what expertise are you interpreting Catholic doctrine in this area? If CC is Catholic, as I am, he would never be able to remarry in the Church (absent an annulment, or her death), as his status would remain "married" in the Church's eyes.
However, even if Catholic, his "legal" position would no longer be married. He would no longer answer for her debts, or legal actions. He would (legally) no longer have to support her beyond what is prescribed in the divorce settlement. Those advantages alone would mandate that he seriously look at the situation with this unworthy woman, and decide if the association with her is worth protecting himself. But beyond mere legal/financial considerations, he would free from knowing that his "marriage" was being made a mockery by a woman whose morals libel the title of "wife".
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I had to read this twice to just take it all in and I really feel that the argument on whether or not CC should leave his wife or not is NOT the main problem and focus of attention here.
The problem is that he has not and can not properly expose his wife because he himself is in denial of her affair. He said he exposed to the parents but at the same time he does not believe that his wife is truly having an affair.
CC, let me just give you a little bit of my extremely ugly history. I was having an affair with a co worker and we thought we had our affair down to a T. We did not need to text or communicate with each other much via phone because we saw each other all day long and were able to communicate at work.
We were so sneaky that if we did text we had codes that made is seem like our conversations were innocent and normal. We used our school email address, which neither of our spouses had access to to talk and IM at work as well. I am so very ashamed of these actions today but these are the thoughts of a wayward. They only think of themselves and hiding the affair is part of the foggy BS .
Of course the boss is not going to just tell you about the affair. He has just as much to lose. Both of them are cake eating. They don't want to end their marriages but they want to play around with each other and the fantasy world that they created with each other.
You are ALLOWING this to happen by hoping that your wife is NOT truly having an Affair. I would not be willing to bet my family on it (because I screwed up so bad that I would never even risk losing them again) but I would be willing to bet my next paycheck that your wife not only is having an affair with her current boss but she also had an affair (emotional and physical) with the guy in California.
Here is the thing. It does not matter who is right and who is wrong in the replies above. What matters is that if you truly want to save your marriage you need to pull your head out of your butt and quit denying the truth.
Do you want your wife back? Then start educating yourself on Dr. H's methods. I do agree that you should email Joyce and get Dr.H's firsthand advice.
Start snooping, exposing, and fighting for your wife. Are you familiar with Plan A? If not, read up.
You get to decide what you want to do. But ML is right. If she is not on board and you are not willing to go through the steps, then you should give up on your marriage and walk away.
Don't offer your wife a divorce...she is calling your bluff and knows you wont go through with it.
DEMAND a divorce unless she ends her affair, Is willing to work on your marriage, and wants to move back home.
Again, I am a two time wayward can sniff another wayward a mile away. Your wife is having an affair, do you have what it takes to try and end it and get her back? It is up to you but I know no matter what anyone says on here, you CAN'T do it without Dr. H.
Last edited by fifteenyears; 01/31/13 10:16 PM.
Me (WS) Husband (BS)
DS - 15
DD -10
My D-day - 11/12/11
Today Me (BS) H (WS)
D-Day #2 01/14/12
I don't want to just survive my affair, I want to recover from it!
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What FifteenYears said.
Yes, the point is well-made that the guy's odds of resurrecting his marriage out of the ashes of these particular circumstances are pretty close to nil. I told him that myself two days ago.
I haven't seen the if/then, input/output flow-chart that scientifically tells us which marriages are worth trying to save. That would seem to depend, inter alia, on what the meaning of "worth" is to a given individual.
OK.
Coop, I don't know what your value-hierarchy is, or whether or not you've got what I & most others here might consider to be some warped definition of "worth." I don't know exactly what are your odds of saving this marriage, although I (and, I think, most everyone else here) senses that they're pretty awfully low, based on what you've told us.
If you want to buck those odds (and I'm not recommending whether you should or shouldn't try -- that's your business, not mine), then the least you need to do is confront the situation as it is, not as you might hope it to be. Quite possibly, nothing can save your marriage; but if anything can, misplaced "hope" is certainly not gonna do it.
I believe Occam's Razor may apply here -- the simplest explanation. And here, I think the simplest explanation isn't that your wife wants "space" in order to sort herself out. I think the simplest explanation, given the established fact of her recent emotional affair(s), is that she wants space to continue those affairs, and perhaps to take them to the "next level," without the awkwardness that your constant proximity would cause her in that case.
None of us here, and no one anywhere, can "crystal-ball" your way out of this for you. I'd say it's time for you to cut the hand-wringing & the guesswork, and go evidence-based. It's your call on whether to play this one out or let it go, but if you decide to try to save this marriage, then you'd better get evidence of the (most probably ongoing) affair, & expose it much more broadly than before, or you'll have NO shot at all. And if you hire a PI & he turns up nothing, then maybe you'll feel more at peace about cashing in your chips & cutting your losses, at the hands of someone who may not be worth wasting more of your life upon. But either way, I recommend that you take actions to confirm the facts & then face them in full, not shrink from what the facts might turn out to be.
Me: FWH, 50
My BW: Trust_Will_Come, 52, tall, beautiful & heart of gold
DD23, DS19
EA-then-PA Oct'08-Jan'09
Broke it off & confessed to BW (after OW's H found out) Jan.7 2009
Married 25 years & counting.
Grateful for forgiveness. Working to be a better husband.
"I wear the chain I forged in life... I made it link by link, and yard by yard" ~Jacob Marley's ghost, A Christmas Carol
"Do it again & you're out on your [bum]." ~My BW, Jan.7 2009
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