Hi everyone, it's been a few years since I was here, but I need a bit of guidance from some long-timers. We're still hitting roadblocks in regards to trust.

I'm the cheating wife - long story short(ish): We'd been married nearly 8 years and had 2 young children when I began a FB affair with an old boyfriend, which lasted 3 to 4 months. Never met in person. Many regretful chats that were recovered by my husband and subsequently imprinted on his mind and heart.

I lied a lot, re-wrote history to justify my choices and stalled our recovery with my terrible attitude (lots of anger from marital issues that I used to give myself an excuse for what I did).

My husband never believed that I never met the man in person and even suspected that I had sex with an old (male) friend who surfaced around the same time (I met him for coffee before the FB affair began with the old boyfriend, but lied about it before I told husband). I did consider it and my husband found proof in my search history of me looking into flights.

We did marriage counseling, read all the Harley books and worked really hard to get back on track. We learned we were pregnant again just a couple of months after the affair ended and my husband wondered for months if our son was his.

So, the issue has come up because I will be flying solo to do a certification course for 4 days. In the past 4 years, I've essentially devoted everything to becoming a better person, wife and building back his absolute trust in me, and I think I've made an error in essentially eliminating everyone else from my life but him. I've only taken the kids to visit their grandparents a few times on my own, and other than that we haven't been apart at all.

Ok, here's where you can help and tell me if I'm right or wrong or in-between. My husband tells me that I still haven't done enough to rebuild the trust. That I haven't valued or validated his feelings because I still get upset when the subject comes up (I do - thinking it is massive residual guilt now).

He says essentially that it is my responsibility to make him trust me. I say he still needs to work through some pain and blocks and I can't actually do that for him. That he needs to either choose to let it go (by way of working through it) or continue to hold on to it, which blocks our marriage from reaching its full potential. We've done great work. We're pretty happy, but when this comes back up it knocks us over for days.

So, do I still have the bulk of the work to do? Or is it his turn to take responsibility for his own feelings and to do something for himself to heal his heart? He wants me to do that for him, but I don't think that is possible for anyone. And in the meantime, because (he says) I haven't done what he thinks I should do, he still lashes out on occasion (out of no where when we have a heated disagreement he'll say, "You're the one who cheated on me or say other horrible things that shows that it is still sometimes very fresh for him).

I'd really appreciate feedback from some of you who have been in recovery for some time. I am (we are) absolutely committed to an honest, faithful life together. I just want us to crush this block so we can truly move forward.

Thanks in advance.

Welcome back MrsV.

What type of EP's did he put in place for you post DDay? Have you followed those EP's and are you completely transparent in your lifestyle?

Have you been getting adequate UA time to rebuild the love in your marriage? (15 hrs to maintain, 20-25 hours to rebuild)

Have you identified each other most important EN's and worked on meeting those EN's?

Have you ever considered the online program or counseling with the coaching center?

Finally, it seems to me that your BH never gotten confirmation of the facts of the affair. You can look around on this site and find people who DECADES later still have that suspician that they are still being trickle truthed by their WS. It doesn't just put a damper on recovery, it HALTS the recovery process when the betrayed spouse always wonders what it is that they don't know. How can you recover if you think there is a possibility that your marriage is STILL based on lies???

I would highly, highly suggest that you take a polygraph. Make the appointment yourself. Tell your BH to write out a list of questions that he would like answers too. Write out a timeline of events to the best of your ability, with answers to each of his questions. Provide him with the number for the polygraph examiner, so that they can coordinate WHICH questions will be asked during the course of the test (which you will not know). Then, pass it. Perhaps this will give him some peace of mind that he is, at least, beginning recovery with all the cards on the table.

BTW, I am not really a long timer. And I don't have a completely recovered marriage! Its a work in progress. But I did, after a decade of my WH lying and cheating, require him to take a poly. Turns out he had finally given me all of the truth prior to the poly, but how would I have ever known that if I didn't do it? The problem is, once you lie and deceive your spouse, they have no reason to believe you, even when you ARE telling the truth. So a poly will confirm that you are/have told the truth, and take that first step to rebuilding the trust that was damaged.

Don't be insulted by having to take a poly. Be thankful for it. Look at it as an opportunity to make your BH feel safe in your marriage, an opportunity to give him some peace of mind. An opportunity to start building trust again.

All of these things should be included on the poly. These are very big, important suspicions that he is carrying around with him. It is no wonder he has not been able to recover if he suspects there are more PA's that you have not disclosed, or that one of your children is possibly not his.

Welcome back, MrsV. I don't know your story but I'll go read it after I respond.


Are you transparent with him? What EP's do you have in plave and do you go over them with your BS? Has a situation ever come up involving your EP's?

There is no way for you to validate his feelings as you haven't wallked in his shoes. However, you have no right to get upset with him unless he is using AO's, DJ's or SD's. You did this to him, accept it, acknowledge it and apologize for it.


Your lies have made it very difficult for him to trust you. Dr Harley says that dishonesty is often worse for the BS then the affair itself. It would take years of being trustworthy (through transparency and honesty) for him to trust you again. And maybe he never will.

As far as "choosing to let it go" or "hold on to it". I resent that. We didn't "choose" to be cheated on nor can we "choose" to let it go. It remains a permanent scar that will always be there. It is akin to having one of your children die. The pain fades as the years go by and hurts less and less but like the memory of that child's smile, the hurt will always be there.-


Your affair should not be still coming up after all this time, nor should he be bashing you over the head with it.

Are you getting in 20 hours of UA time a week? Are you meeting each others 4 most important EN's? Has your BS ever gone to IC or posted here on the boards?



As a BS, I hope I wasn't too harsh on you. I commend you for coming here for help for your BH. Perhaps he can come here for some support and advice, as well?

~RQ

It is your responsibility to provide your spouse with Just Compensation for your infidelity. This is done by following the EP's, becoming completely transparent, maintaining UA time, filling his EN's and creating an integrated lifestyle where it is impossible to have another affair.

Once you have discussed the affair and he feels he has all the information he needs, you should NOT discuss the affair again. But since he clearly does not feel he has all the information, that is why he continues to bring it up.

If you are getting upset every time he brings up his feelings, then you aren't validating his feelings. You are basically saying you are placing your GUILT in front of his pain.

He is right that the bulk of the responsibility for recovery resides on YOU, as the WS. You, afterall, are the one that broke his trust and need to earn that back again. He should not be expected to just 'work through his pain.'

Would your BH be willing to post here? It might be helpful for him to get some guidance on how to work towards getting past the resentment, too.

It seems what your post says boils down to this: That your H doesn't want you to go on the trip due to trust issues and you think he needs to suck it up because you have never given him a reason not to trust you since your A four years ago.

First, a trip like this is a violation of Dr H's basic EPs that he recommends for all couples, forgetting ones that have dealt with an A.

Secondly, forgetting EPs for a second, it doesn't sound like you are using POJA in your M. If you were, you would never have planned to go on the trip without your H's enthusiastic agreement -- and if he did agree but then later told you it was making him concerned due to trust or any other issues, you would have canceled it.

Using POJA actually helps to re-build trust. Dr Harley has written an article about this I believe. I will look for it and be back...

How Can Trust Be Restored After An Affair

You apparently read the books but never followed them?

The answer is NO. You should not spend one night away from your husband.

You purposely mention "certification course" but you also used your business as an excuse for your Facebook account, even after he demanded that you block the affair partner.

It seems that you live independent lifestyles and that he doesn't have much say on the business activities.

There are so many responses! I'm grateful.

Unwritten, I offered to take a polygraph - he blew it off and wouldn't entertain the idea. I brought it up several times in the first year after D-day. I'm not insulted by the idea at all. I would still do it in a heartbeat. I want him to know that he knows the truth.

We did and do try to hit those 15 hours, but remember, we have 3 children ages 7 and under. Sometimes we have to choose between UA and sleep.

Though it took me a few months, I did become completely transparent in my lifestyle and remain so. He has access to any thing I do online, he checks my phone periodically and I'm an open book.

Jedi-Knight,
we did follow the books for nearly the first year. We got to a point where he didn't want daily reminders of my affair and so we agreed to stop.

He has everything to say in my business ideas. I don't even entertain an idea if he's not on board. I stopped the business I was in during the affair. We opened one together 2 years later, which subsequently closed and we are as completely integrated as we can be. Now, he has a new job (which he often has to travel overnight for several days at time for) and we're not together 24/7. He is OK with his own travel and we do our best to have UA before and after his trips.

My certification trip is not set in stone and will only happen when he is comfortable with it (there are several trainings throughout the year in various locations). He and I discussed it and agreed that I would take this route. We've even discussed him coming with me, but we have 3 kids have just moved overseas where we're not close to any family to leave the kids with.

He knows for certain now that our son is his. He found proof verifying a period between when the affair ended and before I was pregnant. We both even know exactly when we conceived, so our son (who looks exactly like my husband) knows he is his.

I can't just go and have a PG on my own - that would be lying and going behind his back, but if he won't agree on one... I'm stymied.

Rocketqueen,

I appreciate your resentment with my "choosing" comment. I'm sorry for that. I think I meant more that in a way, he chooses to keep the pain active, instead of choosing to recover. I know this will always be a scar, but even a parent who has lost their eventually has to make a choice to keep living anyway. And I think to fully care for himself, he should choose to work through his pain (I will help as I can) until it is not and active, bleeding wound, let's say, but one that actually has scarred over and begun to heal. We'll always see the scar.

I have been completely transparent with him for 4 years now. It did take me a few months, as I mentioned in the first post, which obviously didn't help.

EPs - I'm completely open with him. He has access to everything anytime - phones, computers, email, everything.

AO's, DJ's or SD's - right. That's exactly why I get upset. I have an intense fear reaction whenever it does come up because he had and has all of the above (ao/dj/sd). It doesn't happen that often anymore (every 3 months or so), but when it comes up I'm scared (scared he'll wake and scare the kids, scared of 3 days of his silent, angry brooding, scared of being called a whore) and even if the conversation is quite tame, my body goes into stress and I very easily get upset. Going back to the scar analogy, it's almost as if he keeps ripping off the scar so he can justify ao/dj/ds.

I know I carry the bulk of the work, but my self-esteem was severely damaged before and after the affair. In some way it's as if he uses the affair to keep me on a leash. I'm already willingly on a leash through the EPs including radical honesty and being completely transparent.

We barely hit our UA time - ringing in around 15-hours, but the kids frequently interrupt and we're in a new place where we don't actually know anyone! We're currently financially stretched, as we have been seemingly forever, so that puts a real strain on our relationship and our ability to get out alone together.

It's been so long since we went through our ENs... it's time to revisit.

You weren't too harsh. Thank you.

No, he would never post here.
You're right, I'm not validating his feelings. That's exactly what he says. I will work on that.

Thanks, SusieQ - I'm not asking him to suck it up. It is planned with his full agreement, and as I mentioned in a previous reply, not set in stone. So, it was POJA and he agreed, but it isn't confirmed, because he still has concerns.

I'm seeing that perhaps it is best that I wait for a date where we can have his mother come and stay with the children and he comes with me. Before posting here, I was thinking it would be a good exercise in trust, but I see that just isn't so now.

OK, everyone, you rock, first of all. Second of all, I realize (thanks to all of you) that we need to go over ENs again, work harder at getting quality UA, and I need to work my butt off to get over my guilt and stay calm during these discussions so that he feels validated (b/c when he doesn't it hinders trust building).

Another question, how can I protect myself from his DJs? These hinder my own self-worth recovery and he basically tells me I'm just too sensitive.

I love my husband very deeply. I'm only bringing up the rough patches here, but we have more beauty and love in our marriage today than we did for several years prior to my EA, not to mention an absolute commitment to get us through this stuff.

I've committed to being the best person I can be and I practice RA both with him and myself. That's why I'm here, so thank you for your honesty.

Mrs. V, sounds like you are on the right track and doing the right thing on holding off on the course.

The EP's are not so much about transparency but more like a contract that you agree to abide to, such as No OS friends, having a NC plan in place, etc. A set of rules for you to follow that allow your BS to feel safe.

I can understand about the UA time, it is hard when you have kids. Kiss and I have 2 that are 6 and 8. We try to get a date night in once a week, a lunch together and UA time after the kids are in bed. It's rough but try to schedule it in first before anything.

His AO's and DJ's have got to stop. Has he read Lovebusters? Have you filled out the Lovebusters questionnaires? He has to be helped to realize how damaging they are to you. That is why it would be helpful for you both for him to post here, call the coaching the center or email Dr. Harley at the radio program. See if he would be willing to do one of those.

~RQ

But stopping the program has the opposite effect. If you don't follow the program and transform your marriage, you have a crippled version of the pre-affair marriage. We have many repeat affairs on the board who didn't follow the program. The marriage never recovers.

The key to the program is restoring the romantic love in the marriage by getting in 15 hours of UA time. You should never choose between sleep and UA time because UA time should be scheduled at a time when you are at your most energetic, NOT when you are tired. For example, dates should be scheduled early in the evening, around 5 or 6. And then you have all day Saturday and Sunday.

And most people do have children here and manage to schedule their UA time. They hire babysitters!


Traveling jobs are an invitation to an affair and are a disaster to marriages. A TABOO at Marriage Builders. Many of the affairs we see on the SAA forum happened due to this reason.

I am sorry to hear you are not using the program at all.

A reminder that this program doesn't work if you don't get in your UA time. So when folks pencil whip the UA time, they are only depriving themselves of the benefits of this program. Go ask anyone on this forum who is in a fully recovered marriage if they pencil whip the POUA. They don't. That is because it doesn't work without it. I say this from long personal experience.

It is much harder to have a bad marriage because you have skipped this step.

Here.
The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

It is much harder to have a bad marriage because you have skipped this step.

Not sure this is structured correctly. Either "harder" should be "easier", or "bad" should be "good", I think!

Anyway, MV, the disconnection spiral begins as UA time is missed, or foregone, for other distractions. Conversely (thankfully), with no other dissatisfiers in effect, simply increasing the UA time will create the critical feelings of closeness and affinity that will generate a desire for more of the same.

I am the guardian of the quantity of our UA time, and (modestly) not only do I take pride in arranging it, but there is virtually no appeal from my decisions regarding its necessity. But...Bride is in charge of its form, and content. It makes for a great cooperative effort, even if I am compelled to attend the occasional Sheep Festival.

Try the same thing: "Mr V, we need to spend four hours in UA time this weekend. What would you have us do?"