Boy, I really wish your W didn't know about this thread -- but all the above really is a huge red flag (as the others have been trying to telling you) there may still be contact. You realize that even one-sided contact will keep her foggy as well, right? That includes looking at pictures, notes, emails, mementos of the affair. If she is on FB and is looking at OM's page or a mutual friends' page and sees his comments, pics, etc, that will also keep her stuck.

On the flip side, if there is truly NC and what I pointed out above as red flags is still true, then you need to keep your GUARD way up, because she is still dangerous.

One other note: Coaching with JC will be much more effective if you truly are sure there is NC. I'd hate to see you dismiss it and waste the $$ and time if there is still something going on.

I hear what you are saying. Like I said, the OM doesn't even have a FB page. He is not an electronic guy at all. No smart phone, etc. In fact, when I discovered the A in the first place, it wasn't contact between him and her, it was her talking to a "friend" about it.

As far as one-sided contact, the only thing I can think of would be stuff in her mind, or maybe songs or something.

And as for the red flag stuff you quoted, I was just sitting here wondering if a lot of this is just in my own head. I'm wondering if I am just so messed up in the head now that I am driving myself crazy!

I wonder if these are just my perceptions of what she thinks. Like I said, she has gotten very good at knowing what to say and what not to say. I'm just not convinced she believes it.

Recent example: Saturday, I look on her phone and there is a text message from the guy whos kid she watches during the day. Came in at 7PM.

It says "Thanks for the offer, but he wants to go to the park tomorrow. Do they have a place there where he can ride his bike?"

She responds "Yes they do. Our son rides his bike there all the time. Have fun!"

So later on, I ask her about it because I'm thinking "what offer?" and she had invited him to bring his son with us to the St. Patricks Day parade on Saturday. All I said was "I'd rather you not do that." Then I shut up.

She then went into and explanation that he and another lady were standing there with their kids and she told them we were going to the parade and that they should come too. She didn't mean anything by it.

And she probably didn't. She is just friendly. I can totally see it going down like that, but it just rubs me the wrong way. Like I said, maybe I am just messed up.

That's a red flag. Why he she watching his kids I thought one of the EPs where no OS friends. Did you POJA the fact your having another man and another child at your family event. That is the cause of your angst.

Is she watching these kids as a favour or as a paid service?

This is a paid service. She watches two kids after school. This kid is only 3 so she watches him all day depending on the guys work schedule.

FTF you need to establish what makes YOU feel safe in the marriage. You are NOT crazy. Stop psyching yourself out. Your feelings are valid because your spouse is not following the rule of protection.

If you need to put some more EPs in place do it. You shouldn't be walking on the edge like this all the time.

Well, we have a session with Jennifer this Sunday. We'll see how it goes.

Two positive things lately. One is she wanted to go to the YMCA during the day to take a class. This makes me a little nervous because the gym seems to be one of those places A's start up rountinely. So I voiced my concern and she has decided to put it off and just go when we can go together for now.

Second one is that hse wanted to invite parade guys kid to our DD's birthday party. Bad news is she even suggested inviting him. Good news is that when I said it made me uncomfortable, she said she inderstood and wil not invite them.

FTF,

I hear what you are saying. Like I said, the OM doesn't even have a FB page. He is not an electronic guy at all. No smart phone, etc.

Is this an older OM? Did you write the new school district about his character.

What does your WW feel about what she did to OMW?

God Bless
Gamma

No, he is the same age as us (38). He is just still in the 20th century.

I did not write the new school district. I did track him down and know where his new school is.

My W has never said anything about OMW, so I don't know how she feels.

We had our first session with Jennifer yesterday. It did not go exactly like I thought it would. I guess I wanted to do a little more complaining and explaining. She spent a lot more time on the phone with my W.

She did give us some work to do this week, so I will follow through on what she has suggested.

She wants us to fill out the ENQ again, and this time on a sheet of paper, we are to define exactly what it is that we want (but not share it yet). That will be the hardest part I think.

I'll reply to NG here since I am banished from my W's thread. The SF issue has not been successfully POJAed yet. She did bring it up Monday night as we were going to sleep. I suggested every other night. She countered with Tuesdays and Fridays. I said "What about Saturdays and Sundays?" To that I received no reply, just zzzzzzzzzzz.

This issue is very difficult for me to negotiate on because I harbor resentments about it. I spent a lot of my free time today reading the Using resentment as a punishment thread because I want to avoid doing that and it had some discussion on the SF issue and enthusiastic agreement as it related to meeting ENs.

My resentment revolves around the fact that she gave it up to OM on demand and complained to her "friends" using lines like "Why doesn't he want it more." and "We used to do it every day".

Here is a direct quote that I read in one of her emails talking about OM:


and...


And when questioned about this, she says "Oh, well, to me every day means once a week." BTW, she admitted to the every day thing until I suggested that schedule for ourselves, then the story changed to the above.

So, you could say I have a little resentment about it.

FTF,

Come up with a list of 100 questions, about every possible topic and angle, have her write out her answers.

Get her a polygraph for her in which the main question is did you answer the FTFs questions honestly. A secondary question might be something like is there anything else FTF should know.

That WW is still changing her story indicates that she is holding back to spare your feelings, but this lack of honesty is choking your real recovery.

I don't get how women can settle for a life of indifferent chastity, I'm dealing with that now.

God Bless
Gamma

That wasn't really my point. I already KNOW what happened because it is in her own words in the emails she wrote. She only changed the story because I suggested that I should get at least the same treatment with regards to frequency and enthusiasm that OM got. When I say "changed the story" I mean she explained it away as "When I say every day, I mean twice a week, because that feels like everyday to me." That conversation was probably a year ago now, but it is one of the items on my mountain of resentment.

There is also to issue of her never turning him down. I asked her one time if she ever turned him down when he asked. She said she remembered telling him on two occasions that she couldn't do it that day. Twice in 10 months. So every rejection I get seems to add to the mountain.

So this needs to be resolved in some way. I've thought about this every which way. I need to escape the shadow of the mountain. I need to find a way to get away from it. But it seems like this isn't in the past. Every rejection in in the present. Every negotiation is in the present.

The solution can't be to "just do it" if it's something she is going to resent herself. I can't bring this up in the context of "you did this for him, so you have to do it for me" because that is just using guilt to get what I want. I can't send her articles or lecture her on how she has to work with me to find a way to make it mutualy enjoyable because that is a DJ.

Ok now I'm rambling and I need to get some work done so I will stop.

Always keep in mind that the addiction and "thrill" of the adultery is going to feel different from the way the love in a marriage feels. That's why she could so easily have sex with OM. She was on a high. And now she's in withdrawal and having to deal with "normal" life.

Kind of like someone having been on heroine and now they need to live without it. Life will seem empty without it at first, and then they will learn to live (hopefully) a fruitful and wonderful life on their own, without the high of the heroine. Does this make sense?

Is it possible you could withdraw the issue of SF for the time being? Or be content with less than you actually desire? Is she willing to engage in SF with you once or twice a week?

Continue depositing love units by being a wonderful complimentary husband. And absolutely NO love busters. I know that seems unfair, but the alternative is constant frustration for you. So just take it off the table for now. Do what you did in the beginning to win her love.

You had mentioned in a post that you two often have a couple of hours at home after your child goes to bed and what ideas could be used for that time that could count for UA time and be enjoyable. We have a lot of board games, mostly "Euro" games. They are very engaging and my H loves playing them with me. I like them a lot, too, and we can talk and laugh while playing. When we want something easy, we play cribbage or rummy.

You can create a time frame in your mind to reassess the situation and to determine what you can live with if things don't turn around.

You will always have access to the Harleys now that you have been on their radio show, so you can try giving them a call back to see how to proceed.

Maybe I should just take the issue off the table. It seems to be at the core of what is most painful for me though.

I expressed to my W this afternoon at lunch that I felt like I was driving the recovery bus. She says "I know that's very frustrating for you. Why don't you quit doing it?" I said "Because the bus doesn't move forward unless someone is driving it."

That "why don't you quit doing it" thing is sticking in my mind though.

We really do understand how difficult this is for you. When a wife is wayward, Dr. Harley often says the H must lead the recovery. He says that very often a WW is not remorseful. So, you're right, if you don't lead the recovery, your marriage will likely limp along in a crippled state...like most marriages do following adultery.

Jon and Sue (from SAA) took a long time to recover and it took a lot of patience and effort. Sue didn't break off her relationship with her OM; he broke it off with her, so Jon felt like a last resort for his WW. She wasn't remorseful either. She felt like the whole affair was his fault.

Since you two have children together, it makes a lot of sense to do your best to keep on doing what you are doing -- leading this marriage to restoration.

People advised me here that if the marriage was not better than ever in two years, I should reconsider my choice. That's a good time frame, don't you agree? If you end up with a marriage that's restored, it will have been worth your effort and the two years.

If your marriage does not recover, you will have given this your all-out efforts.

It's not a bad idea to remove SF from the table, just for now. When your wife is in love with you, she will want to meet that need for you. Are you doing your best to be the "president of her fan club?"

And it sounds so dang easy, doesn't? And tempting? But I'll tell you that once you withdraw, then she will withdraw and it is so much harder to get that bus going again.

Just keep doing what you are doing. Concentrate on building that romantic love.

And you have to try to let go of what she said to him and what she did with him. I know it's not easy and I still struggle. But when I start down that road, I tell myself "stop torturing yourself" and I think of something else.

I hate to tell you, friend, but this is closeted disrespect on your part. If you feel it, don't say it.

Instead:
Talk factually to your wife about love busters she commits and how they make you feel.
Talk factually to your wife about what things she could do that would really meet your emotional needs.
Find out ways to make bucketloads of love bank deposits WITHOUT SACRIFICING.

If you haven't gathered this already, Dr H has high expectations of men on this programme. If they have withdrawn and reluctant wives, he expects men to use their emotional strength and energy for a long time to turn their wives around. He is tough on men and he does not accept that they should give up easily. Men can go for a long time without getting their emotional needs met, and giving all they've got to meet their wives' ENs. They can do this and they should do this if they want to recover their marriages.

I'll bet you could train in a gym and build up big muscles and strength. I'll bet you could bear physical pain in a fight. I'll bet you can life heavy furniture and break rocks. You've got strength, and the strength you already display can be developed even further. Stop giving up in this endurance exercise until you reach the point where you collapse from exhaustion. You are far from that point now; you are just discouraged.

If you want to leave now you can, but if you are going to stay don't withdraw from the training. In this programme, as a man you have to work hard for a long time. Get on with it.

Dr H has high expectations of men on this programme. If they have withdrawn and reluctant wives, he expects men to use their emotional strength and energy for a long time to turn their wives around. He is tough on men and he does not accept that they should give up easily. Men can go for a long time without getting their emotional needs met, and giving all they've got to meet their wives' ENs. They can do this and they should do this if they want to recover their marriages .

TFT, Stop imagining that FC is going to have an epiphany and revert to the loving, affectionate spouse you might have believed she was at one time. Her self-centered and dismissive persona is clearly too well entrenched to be overcome, in the limited time you have, given your already depleted $LB and the rate at which you must expend it, to have you still be there when she wises up.

Your Plan A is intended at this juncture to be the equivalent of a jet aircraft in distress dumping fuel before trying a difficult end to its flight. You must reorient yourself to the "No Expectations" mode that you've failed - spectacularly, btw - to maintain previously, while performing every act possible to satisfy her ENs. All of this would be in an effort to position yourself emotionally when you realize intellectually that, basically, she's not worth any additional effort, that you did everything you could, as long as you could, and can dispose of her without regrets.