Welcome to mb. Sorry you are here. I see that you guys have been phone coaching with the harleys. That's fantastis. Stick with it. In my situation I finally realized I had an anxiety issue that was fueling my anger. And much like you my wife thought I would never be violent during a heated argument of some kind. But as time went on each time we had a confrontation we provoked and escelated to the point where I accidently hurt my wife during an AO. It was not intentional but none the less it happened. She called the police on me and we separated for a week. During that week I had lots of time to think and realized that my actions were totally uncalled for.

After that week I came to my wife with a plan to get rid of my anxiety and anger. She accepted me back in and we are in a definate recovery as we work together to eliminate all sources of unnecessary anxiety (including disassociating with certain family members who greatly contributed to our anxiety)

What strikes me odd about your situation is your hubby claims he gives and gets nothing in return. Do you feel he gives to you in ways you appreciate? You claim you meet his needs and he claims you don't. Its clear that both your efforts are missing the mark.

Have you considered he may have your efforts shut out from filling his love bank due to an affair of some kind? Has he ever said "I love you but not in love with you?" If so that's a huge red flag that he has some kind of compairison.

Do not confront him with the question about if he having or havr had an affair of some kind (emotional or physical) just snoop!

Mng

And I feel compelled to agree, loudly!

You aren't the cause of your husband's angry outbursts, so nothing you do can stop them. All you can do is decide that you'll never endure another one.

I have sent Steve a couple emails about the severity but he hasn�t responded.

I have huge anxiety issues. I may be trying to trick myself. It is just all so stressful at this point. I am open to all everyone is saying. I want to touch base with Steve and see if he suggests the same after he gets how scared I am of his AO and simply communicating with him in any way.

I guess I don�t feel that is fair. It is my responsibility to ensure I provide the environment where he feels loved.

Good audio links! Thanks for sending them my way. I will continue to listen to them over and over. The thing I hear in them is that he is in love with her and she is not with him. Harley says that this is a good time to separate because she is still needed by him. I feel expendable and that he could care less if I was gone from him life. I feel he sees I�m a hindrance to his relationship with his 21 y/o daughter who hates me.

Thanks Prisca! I needed the virtual hug and I appreciate your words. I am very thankful you are responding. I don�t feel alone and feel supported.

Thanks for chiming in here. Maybe I am trying to nice him out of AOs?!? I would have to say that I *think* I am meeting his needs. He has only shared things verbally in the past so I am trying to eliminate the negatives and do the positives. According to him yesterday morning, he isn�t getting his needs met. So I really need to understand his EN and ensure I know his LBs. I must say, I am doing the things I feel he needs now due to SDs from the past so there is a lot of resentment behind me doing them but none-the-less, it is not about me. H said yesterday during the coaching session that reason he did the last AO is because he has told me to not talk about him in front of his family and I continue to do it and that is not stopping my behavior so it is escalated. The situation he is talking about is that his family and my family were at dinner and I was telling my mom about an incident where he blew up at me. His sister was cupping her ear to listen in and was pissed. Later, H asked her what was going on and she told him that I was talking bad about him to my family. He was livid! I asked him what was wrong and it is the biggest blow up I have ever seen from him. We were an hour away from home and I left walking home. I had a friend come and get me. I stayed several nights at a friends house. I came back when he was finally cooled down. I admit, I shouldn�t have been talking poorly in front of his family but the AO was completely wrong from the earlier issue and this issue. Then the incident happened with me calling him a jerk and his daughter 11 hearing it. That is when he yelled at me again. I have had threads on here twice in the past and asked the moderators to delete them as I am scared that he will see them and get mad that I�m expressing all this to the public. In the last AO, he told me that I call him names to my friends but I am NOT to say things in front of his children.

Thanks for being open about your AOs and how she was hurt. I do see everyones point about there is always a first time. If it does ever escalate to that before I make a move I will definitely call 911. He has blocked my car so I could not leave the house once and blocked me from going down the stairs where I threatened to call 911 and he moved. I�m not sure if he has said those exact words but I do feel that he feels that way. I highly doubt he is having an affair. He is always at home. My only concern is his behavior with his daughter 21. I will say I think he is having an emotional affair with her. Although she has had some ridiculous AOs to him in the past he acts like all is well with her just so he can see the grandkids. She has treated me like dirt and makes up reasons why she doesn�t like me. H has addressed those issues she brings up but she sticks with them as reasons to hate me and keep me away from the grandkids which H supports. It really hurts me deeply. My #1 EN is protection.

I will make sure when there is another, I will ask him to leave until he addresses his anger unless Steve directs me otherwise. I�m glad we have another appointment Tuesday at 6am! I sure wish Steve would respond to my emails. 

Why don't you email Steve's father, Dr. Harley? Steve's great, but he doesn't always respond to emails (at least in my experience). And I don't think you need to wait till Tuesday to talk to someone about this.

You can email and talk to Dr. Harley for free: mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

It is your responsibility to do the impossible? Because nobody can continue to provide care under abuse indefinitely. Eventually your taker will react in your defense, and you will not be providing care.

Besides, a demanding person is a black hole who can never be satisfied. Your caring deeds do not make love bank deposits when your spouse feels entitled to them.

I guess I don't see why it is fair for a person to expect their spouse to provide care even when they are not going to do so and are not going to eliminate love busters. In my understanding, marriage is a bilateral agreement, an exchange that benefits both husband and wife. It's not an entitlement program where one person sits back and lets the other burn themselves out for nothing.

If you are under the impression that making your husband feel loved will cause him to eventually stop being demanding, disrespectful, and angry and start making you feel loved, I have to point out to you that you've BEEN doing that and it hasn't worked so far. Something has got to get him off the fence.

Why would you stay with someone who doesn't care?

Do not do anything you are not enthusiastic about.
Giving into Selfish Demands will not do you or your husband or your marriage any favors. It will only make things worse, as your resentment grows.

In other words, if you had just done what he wanted, he wouldn't have abused you. He is abusing you, then blaming you for the abuse.

As long as he continues to blame you for his own behavior, he is not going to stop abusing you.

Good. I'm concerned about you.

He is not going to start protecting you until you stand up for yourself and tell him that you will no longer be treated this way.


I think you need to come up with a plan that you can implement immediately. Do not ask him to leave.

1. Once he's out of the house, keep him out. Change the locks and file a restraining order if necessary.
2. Tell your friends and family about his abuse
3. If he wants to come home, insist that he contact Dr. Harley and/or Steve for guidance first
4. Do not let him come home until he has taken anger management and has learned to control himself

This is what Dr. Harley says to say to a man who keeps having AOs (I understand that you have not had an affair. This is a letter that Dr. Harley wrote to a woman who had one, and her husband would not stop the AOs. It still applies to you, just fill in whatever issue your husband has AOs about):

Thanks for everyones input and concern. Virtual Hug...I don't know how to code it!

Steve called me this morning. He told me the best way to reach him is to call him and leave a message. I will make sure I do that in the future.

He is now aware of the severity of the situation. His instructions were to have a plan.

I do not have a sense that he will be physically abusive. He has demonstrated submission when I threatened to call 911 when he was blocking the stairs for me to exit. He moved out of the way and allowed me to leave.

Steve and I discussed that I am going to request insight from H on Steve saying 'care is determined by the person on the receiving end' just to see what he says and create some conversation.

He also suggested I go to H when he is calm (like now-he was fine last night like nothing was said about his anger in our coaching call) and tell him I have a concern and I have hope in our marriage. Explain to him that when he loses his temper I feel unsafe. I think the solution involves him not yelling at me. And ask him what he thinks about that.

Either way what his thoughts are on it, my stance must be firm. 'Hold your line' is what Steve said. Steve said it would help if I could try to look at his AOs as a 'toothless tiger'. My thoughts go to a 6 year old throwing a tantrum. Steve said, he will make mistakes and if I can look at them in that light it will help me move forward. I am not to mistake that for acceptance of his AOs

If there is AOs
Don't address Hs concerns when he has an AO
Get his attention as soon as possible
Tell him I love him and I want to make this marriage work.
State what he is doing is not ok and we can work on issues when you are he is not yelling at me. Tell him that we can write this down and discuss it with Steve. Talk to Steve about it.

I feel stronger with this plan in place. In the past I have just sat there and let him have his rant, then I usually go stay with a friend. That left for assumptions that he could feel his anger put me in my place when it really only drove me away. By me making statements it is clear.

Steve also helped me understand that the 'protection' EN I thought would blow him up is really not an EN. It is more of a lovebuster. He said what I am looking for is extrodinary care. Which gives me a lot less anxiety about the interview on my ENs.

If I ever have any sense that he may hurt me, protection must be addressed. I may have a fun time staying at a hotel with my kids so we can swim in their pool!

Yesterday evening we sat down to discuss our assignment. We were to interview each other on our ENs. H suggested I go first but I told him I would like him to go first. I pushed forward to have him share his ENs as I am genuinely interested in what I can do to make him feel loved. I was reluctant to share my own. During the interview of his first EN, I was looking down at the table. He asked me what was I doing and I told him I was listening. I had already taken a full page of notes. He asked me to look at him in the eye when he is talking to me. From that moment on, I knew I would not share. Although he formed it in a question, I feel controlled. I was asking lots of fact finding questions and listening to each detail even before he said that. I have four pages of notes to show for it! From that point on, I didn�t want to share. In the past, I have felt very judged for my feelings. I feel very controlled too on what my feelings should be.

After the discussion, I told him I needed some time to myself. He said that was fine and he was going to run an errand and would it be okay if he stopped by to see SD21. I said fine in an unenthusiastic way. He says I rolled my eyes. Maybe I did. There is so much hurt behind everything relating to SD21. I really didn�t want to deal with having to pretend like I am happy about her living closer to us now. He was livid!!

When he came back from the errand he was angry and started to confront me. He told me that I shouldn't be making him feel guilty when he wants to go see his daughter. And that our previous counselor told me I didn't need to get in the way of their relationship. She told us that I needed to get over her. I told him I was not going to deal with an AO. He told me he was holding his temper. While he wasn�t yelling at me, I felt he was a huge threat to me as generally an AO follows. I was right on this one. When he didn�t get what he wanted out of me, he blew. I can't seem to get him to understand what I need from him. I told him I was leaving. He told me to tell my kids to go to bed. I told him if he wanted me to tell them that then maybe he needed to be the one to leave. He said if I leave I�m not coming back. Of course, I�m kinda in panic mode. I don�t want him to leave for good. I left with the kids. Now the kids are distraught over what is going on.

I took a breather and came back home. I had the kids get in bed (My 13 year old had trouble falling asleep and as a resort only have 6 hours sleep.) and I went in our room and asked him to sit down. (He was packing up his things) I looked at him straight in the eye and said I love you, I don�t want you to leave but I am not going to stop you. I told him I will not tolerate his AOs. He did agree that his AOs were inappropriate. So that is one step in the right direction.

I told him about the forum and encouraged him to post. I requested he not look at my thread and he is concerned at what I am saying about him. I have been real on here and I don�t feel I can share with him and if he reads this I feel he will be livid for the feelings I have. He agreed not to look at my thread.

I want to share with you what resulted in the EN interview as I need some guidance to help me with providing them. My comments to you are in red. Please help me on how I can provide his needs with the comments I have provided.

#1 Admiration � Rated 6 (He has a great need for admiration)
� He is very unhappy when I don�t show it
� He is very happy when I show admiration
� His current feeling is -2 (very dissatisfied)
� He couldn�t answer how often � to him it is a lifestyle, not a number
� He feels admiration when I ask him his opinion and I take it into consideration. I asked him if that applies even when I do not go with his opinion. He said when he thinks of consideration he thinks of more of a compromise instead of me just doing it my way. I can understand this one. The hard part is coming to a compromise when we are in a disagreement. When he is adamant on something how can we compromise?
� When there is a difference of opinion or there is an agreement to disagree, there should be no repercussions. I still have feelings and I should be allowed to have my feelings. He can be strong on his stance regardless of my feelings on the issue. It hurts. I feel he thinks he is doing good by pushing my feelings to the side so he can have a relationship with SD21 the way he and she want. It hurts greatly. When he is with her, I feel he acts like I don�t exist because she hates me so much, yet he doesn�t think I have done anything to her that she should hate me so much.
� If he could hear the words �What did Brian tell you to do?!?... then do it� or �Do you know what the rule is?!? Then why are you not doing it?� it would make him feel admiration. He wants it said in front of him. I am fully on board with getting the kids to do what they are told. I feel controlled when he tells me what I should say to them. I still get them to do what they are told. I need to hold them more accountable. I know this is a growth opportunity for me.
� When I said I would sell stuff and get rid of it after two weeks and I followed through it made him happy. When I stopped it angered him because the plan stopped. I feel like he was demanding I get rid of things on his terms. I agreed to this plan only because there were things I was ok with donating and it bought me time. I find now that I am hiding things so he won�t see them. If I remember them, I try to sell them on my work classifieds, ebay or facebook. I am not a hoarder. My house is lived in. We do have lots of things. We have gotten rid of a lot of things. He has piles too. He is fine with throwing everything in the trash.
� When I make a **huge deal** when he brings home flowers it makes him feel admiration. A simple thanks is not enough. When he bought me dance lessons, he felt I appreciated it with my response. I feel like he wants to control how I feel. I say thanks but it is not enough. I am not happy with most things around him at this moment. I don�t like even being around him because it is so stressful for me. How can I make a huge deal when I feel this way?
� When he cleans the carpet of pet mess, I said hey thanks. �Hey thanks� feels dismissive to him. More words are needed. �I noticed you cleaned the carpet. Thanks I appreciate that. It means a lot to me� It is more of a feeling than words. It is the emotion behind the gratitude. Stating thanks is even a step for me. His dog puked on the carpet, why do you need a goodyear blimp when it was your dogs mess? He would let it sit for a few days before spraying it with pet cleaner and rubbing it into the carpet so you couldn�t tell it happened. So when he uses the carpet cleaner he expects flashing light happiness? I was happy he used the carpet cleaner to actually clean the puke up. I feel like I had gratitude. Again, I feel like he wants to control my feelings. How do I provide the level of gratitude he needs with my emotions as they are?
� He said that when the kids disrespect me it makes him angry. I�m sure it does. If I realize it, I call it. His view of disrespect is different than mine. He is very military minded, strict and harsh. My first thought on this one is how dare he define what respect looks like to me. I don�t feel disrespected by my children. They do end up following through with what I tell them.
� When I stand up for myself (only to the kids) he feels respected Of course there are times I stand up for myself. I am the parent and I don�t have a problem yelling at them for not doing as they are told.
� I need to be stern with the kids on tasks they are asked to complete (ie. Get in the shower, brush your teeth, clean up your room) I feel I am stern with them. I don�t feel you have to yell at them to get their attention (sometimes you do) When they don�t listen I do escalate my persona.

I can see he wants to be admired. I do not admire his AOs, SDs and DJs!!! How can I provide this need when there are so many SDs and DJs?

#2 Honesty and Openness � Rated 5 (6 is great need)
� He is very unhappy when I am not open and honest
� He is somewhat happy when I am open and honest
� His current feeling is -1 (dissatisfied)
� The areas he would like to see improvement from me:
o Sharing positive and negative emotional reactions to significant aspects of life I don�t feel I can share. I have feelings and those are judged. I am hurt by SD21 and by his actions around SD21 but he tells me I need to get over it.
o Sharing info regarding my personal history- I need to explain a reason rather than just say I don�t want to talk about it. I can do that
o Sharing info about daily activities Easy to do the surface talk
o Sharing info about future schedule and plans More easy surface talk
� Talk to him. He loves it when I talk to him. Just ask questions. Open up dialog. It seems ok if I am talking about him. Asking him about questions about his past. What does he remember as a child, what was your favorite vacation as a kid� etc. So easy to do, too.
� Tell him about my day even if he doesn�t understand the things I bring up like for work. I can do that as long as he seems interested in hearing it.
� Tell him what I am thinking and/or feeling even if I don�t think he will like it. Red Flag! Don�t think so! It seems to always end in AOs, SDs and DJs. Although he has recognized AOs are not ok, the others keep me from wanting to share.
� He wants to understand how he can have his negative feelings without me feeling intimidated, specifically when he is angry I told him to contact Steve
� He appreciates when I check to see if there is anything going on before making concrete plans or letting him know of appointments so he knows what is going on. Easy enough to do
� He doesn�t like it when I say I�m fine and he senses something is wrong. If something is wrong I need to state that something is wrong and I don�t want to talk about it. He seems to take my feelings as a personal attack on him. I try to use the �I feel x, when x, I need x� I�m just tired of having to try to defend my own feelings.

#3 Domestic Support � Rated 5 (6 is great need)
� He is very unhappy when I provide domestic support
� He is very happy when I provide domestic support
� His current feeling is -1 (dissatisfied)
� He wants me to make a concentrated effort to get rid of things (clutter) I am glad to do that. I am working on it. It is slow but we have a lot of stuff! I do need to make it more of a concentrated effort. Thankfully I have a close friend who is on board with me and has been helping me.
� He feels supported when I have a plan and work hard to get rid of stuff in the garage and house and I follow through with the plan.
� He needs me to clean up after I do something (ie. Cooking, crafting, changing bike oil) Start a project and finish it Ok� very challenging to me, but definitely a goal I have for him to be happy.
� He needs me to insist the girls pick up after themselves [color:red]Agreed. Kids make messes. I don�t mind telling them to clean up after themselves. I don�t want to be demeaning to them in the process.


How do I meet his top three needs with all the resentment I have? He says he feels like this program along with many others expect him to make changes in order for me to make changes. I am not opposed to providing him with his needs. I want to make him happy. I don�t want to hurt him. I want my efforts to be real. I can fake them but obviously he can tell at times when I�m not real and he wants me to be open and honest. HELP!!!

I'm not going to read that part: you can't meet his needs while he is not fixing his problem with anger. You will find he is a black hole of unlimited needs.

This is the part of the program you guys need to be working on. Not meeting emotional needs:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=29&subsublink=281
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=29&subsublink=282
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=29&subsublink=301
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=29&subsublink=204
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=29&subsublink=205
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=29&subsublink=232
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=29&subsublink=233
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=29&subsublink=234
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=29&subsublink=315
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=29&subsublink=316
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=29&subsublink=317
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=29&subsublink=318
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=29&subsublink=319
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=29&subsublink=320

Thanks markos. I know he sent an email to Steve. I told him he will get a faster response if he leaves a message. Steve is at least now aware of his anger from my point of view. H is angry now so if Steve calls him soon he will hear it too. I can't help but be scared that he will leave me. I know he is hurt, very hurt and he will justify that I am the problem as he does with his X. I know my logic should tell me, why would I want a H like that? There are wonderful qualities about him. He is a Christian, he is strong, he is a leader, he is smart, he has a great job, he loves his children and wants the best for them, he loves my children, he is sensitive and so on. With that said....should I leave to create a separation?

Wonderful! I am reading through them now

We've discussed this before in your thread, and I really think you should re-read it so you don't miss any of the very important information that has been given to you.

As long as your husband is not doing anything to stop his angry outbursts, you should be preparing for a separation, because his anger will eventually destroy your marriage, no matter how much you want to hold it together. You are not safe, and you know this, and you have told us this. You need to be ready so that you can safely control the situation, rather than be forced into something incredibly dangerous with no preparation at all. Don't shove it to the back of your mind, prepare!!

And no, you should not leave; he should leave. He is the one who will not control his anger, so he should be the one to leave.

What does it look like when you say he needs to be doing something to stop his AOs? He is aware of them now, how they effect me and agrees they are unacceptable.

You should've said "no."

Don't pretend that you are happy about it, but do be respectful. You should be allowed to say "I am not enthusiastic about SD21 being a part of our lives at this time."


Your previous counselor was a moron. YOU come first. Always.

Honey, you shouldn't have threatened to leave him. You should've just done it. DON'T ENGAGE with him when he is having an AO. CALMLY walk away and get out of the situation as soon as you can.

He threatens to leave you because he can control you. My husband controlled me the same way. It's part of the AO. He's pretty sure you're not going to do anything to stand up to him, and if he makes this threat, you'll just back down and start giving in again.

What are you going to do to show him that you are not going to tolerate them? It is easy to say you won't tolerate them -- I said so for years, all the while enduring one AO after the next. What are you going to DO?

So what is he going to do about it?
This needs to be on the front burner at all times.

I'm with markos on this one. You don't need to be worrying about EN until he has a plan to protect you from his AOs. THIS is what you need to be working on. Nothing else will matter otherwise.

He CANNOT fill your lovebank right now because of his AOs - he is punching holes in your lovebank with every AO, and it's like trying to fill a holey bucket.

If you try to fill his right now while receiving nothing in return, you are setting yourself up for trauma. You will not be able to make it.

When he has a plan to eliminate his AOs, then you can start talking about EN.

His lovebusters are discouraging your honesty. You will not feel safe to meet his need for openness and honesty until he has eliminated his AOs and DJs.

Good answer.

He needs to be actively eliminating them. He needs to come up with a plan to eliminate them. Dr. Harley has great advice on how to do that. He probably also needs to attend anger management.

He needs to do the things in this article:
How to Negotiate When You Are an Emotional Person

We had a good call with Steve this morning. The one hour call ended up being two hours. H sent Steve an email which he did read. I left three voicemails which I�m sure he heard. Steve is not suggesting separation.

Our next assignment is to interview love busters. He said we are to install small fuses into the situation. We are to go over the 4 guidelines for successful negotiation, specifically focusing on step 2. If we cannot achieve step 2, we table it to talk to Steve. H was very angry at the beginning of the call and Steve heard and addressed Hs concerns in a very constructive way. H was very concerned about what he cannot control.

Thankfully, H was very open to all that was said. Logically he gets it. He says he doesn�t want to hurt me in any way. I need to stop avoiding situations because of my anxiety from the past. Steve says, I need to share my concern and allow movement through the four steps. If #2 is not achieved, we stop.

This will be a great instrument for him. I�m not sure if I am the right person to provide it to him.

�Baby steps� Steve Harley