The answer is POJA.

If he won't do POJA with you about everything, especially his son. Then there's your answer.

Ali,

"POJA" is basically taking your feelings into consideration and coming up with an agreement that both of you are happy with.

Dr. Harley told me, and I wholeheartedly agree, that if your partner is not willing to poja with you, then you will miserable for the rest of your relationship.

My partner in my past relationship refused to poja with me on THINGS THAT REALLY MATTERED TO ME and I was miserable. I was angry and felt disrespected and worthless in that relationship.

Your controlling boyfriend is exhibiting independent behavior is doing the same thing with you. He is not willing to consider your feelings in this situation which means he has no respect for you either. Your boyfriend is controlling your relationship, which means he is controlling you. Your anger is palpable and understandable. The anger is a sign that you are being hurt.

This will not change when you marry. If he is not willing to consider your feelings now, that will not change when a ring is on your finger. Dating is a test to see if your relationship can be a good one. A good relationship takes both partner's feelings into consideration AT ALL TIMES. Your boyfriend has failed this test miserably and only you now are at fault for your unhappiness because you are allowing this in your life. You need to have clear boundaries in your life that don't budge just because your boyfriend nice on other occasions.

You are not married. You shouldn't settle for anyone less than someone who is willing to consider your feelings all the time.

And don't you understand that when your boyfriend spends "time" with his ex and their son that they are meeting each other's needs in some way? Your boyfriend is basically having an emotional affair with his ex, and defending it like all waywards do. The ex is basically an OW to you.

Not only are you settling for someone who doesn't care about you and how you feel, but you are also settling for another woman in your relationship.

BH and MJ,

Thank you for the clear insight. As of right now, I'm in the "time out chair" so to discuss POJA is unfortunately gonna have to wait. To be honest, I am afraid of his reaction. Remember it is me who has the problem according to him.

And yes, MJ, I have told him that I feel that I'm second fiddle to the XW and he flat out said I'm acting like a child and to grow up. Yes, clearly he did not take into account my feelings because if he did, that means he'd have to modify his behavior to benefit me. When I had asked him can you see things from my perspective? He said he'd feel the same but it's not gonna change as they have a child to raise. (kid is a self absorbed, spoiled brat that plays both of them) I know I keep mentioning that but it feels good to get it out. He still has tremendous guilt for having a child from a divorce. Believe me, their divorce was a walk in the park. So with that, his son plays on his guilt and to my BF, his son walks on water. So where there will be areas in our relationship he will agree on, I'm worried about his response to his ex and son.

I do have a question and please tell me is it none of my business what goes on between them financially? For the past 5 months, BF has been paying off his student loan and credit card debt. He's been paying a huge chunk of it each month. But all I hear from him is that he needs a new Mac, his went to the big apple in the sky. And he needs other things but says he can't afford them. Well, I now know why. He's giving his son a huge chunk to help him purchase the car. When I found out that did get me upset because again of this kids behavior and his EW not being considerate of his finances. The child support alone was ridiculous. He was paying 35% of his salary. He should have only been paying 20%. AND he paid for all of his clothes and most of his medications. She received a nice c/s each month. Remember, no mortgage, no car payment. Just city taxes and utilities. Yeah, I'm pissed when I find out that he's still paying the majority of their kids bills when in fact this kids doesn't need nearly the crap he's getting.. So again, is it none of my business???

If you don't like it then you don't like it. They are your feelings.

Remember dating is where freeloaders become renters and then become buyers for marriage.

Did you read the BRF link I posted?

I will be back as I'm headed to Barnes & Noble repurchase my Dr. Harley books so I can enjoy this rare weekend to myself. I'm surrounded by males. Even our pets are males for crying out loud... Hah~

Please, I need your support as I'm really pondering all of the comments.. I appreciate the rest of the comments on this thread. Everything is being absorbed. Please keep em coming..LW and BH, Thank you...

Ali~

You've already had "the discussion" many times. He will not care if you call what you need by a different name, poja.

What I would you if I were in your shoes, would be to print out Dr. Harley's article on POJA, give it to him to read and tell him you want to poja his visits with his ex-wife. Also tell him you will not be in a relationship where you're not cared about, and that means his willingness to poja with you. If he declines, you end the relationship. Plain and simple. That scenario is a win-win. You win because you will not be in a miserable relationship any longer and your self respect comes back, also allowing you to be open to have a relationship with someone else who will poja with you. You would also win if your boyfriend decided that he'd rather poja with you then lose you.


This man is gaslighting you. Look that up on wikipedia. He is basically telling you that you are crazy so that he can get his way. It is completely and utterly emotionally abusive. It will make you crazy if you stay in it.

I don't care what kind of guilt he feels over his divorce. It's all navel gazing and excuse making. It's all an excuse to NOT do anything different because he doesn't want to do anything different. He told you the truth when he said he was not going to change "because they had a child to raise". That is complete BS.

You will not ever find happiness here, and deep down, you know that. You're scared of his reaction because he has already told you plainly how it's going to be. You can't argue "what if he" anymore. You either get out or accept this miserable lot of a relationship.


I would say that this far into your relationship and the fact that you two were considering marriage, I'd say it's fair for you both to be upfront and honest about everything, including finances. If you don't like how he handles his money now, that's not going to change either. I seriously doubt the boyfriend would give your feelings in that matter any consideration either even if you're married.

Cut your losses and be grateful you don't live together and aren't married.

You won't know true happiness until you stick with your own boundaries. Try dropping this freeloader and make it a challenge to see how well you can meet your own needs for awhile.

Read this.
Please Explain Gaslighting

We know you have a lot invested in him and love him. He obviously has met many of your important emotional needs (affection? admiration? conversation?, etc).

That he is giving more financial support than you figure he should to his first family is kind of nice of him towards them and definitely would be irritating to you/for you should you need his financial support (another one of your important emotional needs).

You really need to study up on the Marriage Builders Basic Concepts to see how you are feeling all these things you feel for reasons. Clear reasons.

This relationship (and whatever feelings you have for him) are not going to last long if he keeps making Disrespectful Judgments like that.

You should not be trying to use POJA with him. The way to achieve POJA is here, FGSN: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_guide.html

Notice that the first rule is to eliminate demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. You guys can't even get to POJA until he does that.

Fair or not, that's not really a boundary. A boundary is not a negotiated agreement like that. It's a unilateral thing. Here's an example of a boundary:

"I will not stay in a relationship where my significant other does things that I'm not enthusiastic about."

I will admit, this familiar but unfamiliar site is starting to all come back. I first came on here in 2003. I'd never thought ten years from not I'd be back posting again to this extreme. The thing is I know I'm not going to find happiness on here. What I'm trying find are answers and insight. As we all know to well, especially if any of you had a WS, we have a tendency to feel isolated and hurt. The feelings of let down & disappointment are so overwhelming that you seek and find support.

I find the that gaslighting is very similar to projection. And yes, he does do that. When we argue, which is only about his XW or his son, he does twist and turn things around to make it look like I'm the crazy one. Or as he puts it; "immature." I do wear my emotions on my sleeve and I'm not one to hold things in. I have to talk or release these festered feelings so we can "fix" the problem. But it's hard to fix something when one is in denial that his behavior is contributing to our mess. I love him enough that I can own up to my end. I admit, I will add a snide remark about his WX when we argue. He defends her right away. It's no secret I don't like her. But those feelings are provoked and yes, they're not validated. You are all right, if he would meet that one need of mine, which is I want to feel like I am number one in his life, I wouldn't be writing on this forum.

My needs, of communication, affection, admiration are met through him. I don't depend on him financially so that need is out. But I do want to be with him under the same roof. I want that part of our lives to begin. LOL..what he pays in rent and what I pay, we could afford an incredible house. He is a romantic, still opens the door for me etc, (though I get upset when he does) he goes out of his way to do little things for me as well. I will receive a warm touch in the stores, a flirty glance at dinner or an event. We still laugh. He is kind and very generous to my children. As I've mentioned before, my oldest son is autistic and he just adores BF. So yes, my needs are met. When he and I split in January of last year, not only was I debilitated but my older son as well. Believe me, I was never EVER debilitated emotionally like that for any man. Including my WXH. That was extremely scary for me to feel. Losing control of my feelings like that is something I don't ever want to feel again. So yes, I am very much in love with him. After four years, when he walks through my door and we greet each other, my heart still skips a beat. I love spending my time with him. Though, alone time IS needed for balance. But then there's the side of him, that I'm writing about. Sounds like a different man, huh?

I had read how to survive incompatibility and yes, I agree as we've been there too, that once the commitment is sealed, the trying goes away and we forget about that other person. BUT through my marriage and divorce and coming on here, I did take that with me. Don't take your sig other for granted. I thrive on that.

But on a side note, I do graphic design & starting my own Equine photography biz on the side and is in desperate need of a new computer. I'm on an extreme budget that I barely have anything left over by the time bills are paid and my kids needs are met. A far cry from the life style I was used to. A few of my friends asked me why doesn't sig other buy you one? This was recently too. So when that question for the fourth time was brought up, I felt alone. I can't explain that feeling. I had never thought to ask him that. He knows I need a new one. I'm using his pc laptop right now. How Ironic, huh?

Yes, his parent child attitude is leaving me full of resentment and this "adult time out" punishment has really got me down. That's not respect in that aspect. It's like he's trying to get me to submit to his behavior. So yes, My Journey, you're right!!! Yes, if this continues, I probably will just get up and walk. But right now, I need to try this.

Regarding the computer, he is not obligated to buy you one

Here. Resentment Type A and Type B

I know that Jedi...

I just read the link BH. I'm going to tell you at this very moment which is unfair for me to assume, but I feel because of his ego and pride, he's going to object to this. I just hate this ugly side of him. It was told that his xw checked out on him because she never stood up to him. I just wonder... Also, we were in NY a couple of weeks ago and his sister in law told me that she thinks he likes the challenge from me. I do call him out. I also stick up for myself. But I hate mind games...

Too funny, we were talking about pride the other day before all of this erupted and I said, "Pride is a tool God gave you to hang yourself with.."

I have fear and I hate this.. This is very cruel what he is doing to me.. VERY CRUEL...

Yes, but it's just like waywards are. Waywards put on a great front with the gf or wife, while leading a secret second life. And because you have experience with this, you're more keen to the dangers of the bf/ex-wife relationship. Or any relationship with the opposite sex.

I don't doubt that he's a great guy a lot of the time, but what really matters is not the door he opens, or the flirty glance, or the warm touch even. What really matters is that he protects your feelings and your relationship so that you can genuinely enjoy those other things. I remember in my past relationship that my ex would do all those little niceities for me as well, but they didn't mean [censored] to me when he wouldn't protect our marriage from other women. In fact, it use to tick me off when he did those things. Then he blamed me for not being appreciative.

How your bf spends his money is his business. But I would say that if he was overly generous to the ex and son and not be even a little generous with you, that would be hurtful to me. Now if you were married, I would expect that the future finances be poja'd. Does anyone disagree with that? If so, I'd like your input on why you feel differently please. I'm always learning too.



I understand the need to try everything, including rewording what you've already repeated hoping it will stick. But remember this: you've already tried and doing the same thing over and over again with the same results is the definition of insanity.

I want him to "get it" for your sake, but if he doesn't, I think you should prepare yourself for your journey to something better.

I'm glad you came here for support. I know it's not easy when you love this man. But you won't for long as your resentment builds. Its better to lay your boundaries now in the hopes that he'll come around, as opposed to the relationship dying a slow, painful death.

You have fear because you haven't taken the necessary action to protect yourself from him hurting you.

Courage is doing something in spite of the fear.

Once you no longer allow this in your life, you won't be scared anymore. You will replace the fear with empowerment.

Take all the necessary steps, even if you're trembling.

Read about boundaries, what they are, and how to set them.

You know what's worse than that?

How you will feel about yourself when you know you're the one who allowed it to continue.

Yeah, I know.

I'm looking back at all the times when he had done this to me and I become angry. Trying to pull myself together is just plain hard right now. Waking up to that burning sweat, heart racing, feeling both hurt while missing him. I'm mad and angry because he's purposely hurting me and for him to tell me to "Grow up" is surely that sign of projection or the new word, gaslighting.

I want to present him the POJA and start. But the longer he continues the silent treatment or my time out, the more anxious I become.

I'm not reaching out by text, email or phone calls. He lives a mile a way, and not even thought of going over there. And I don't want to. I don't want to play into this game. And by doing so, going over there or contacting him, to me, it will show that I accept this cruel mental game he's playing.

He's got to understand, that this kills relationships. But let me explain, he can turn his feelings off. How he does that is beyond me. I know it's a front.

Seriously, how to I confront him when he does decide to end this time out? What do I say that he will really understand how bad it hurts when he does this...WITHOUT allowing him to turn tables and telling me; "When you decide to act like a mature person...." If I tell him I'm hurt, blah blah blah, He will say use that as a parent teaches a child to stop a behavior..

My God it's 6:30 in the fregg'in morning!!!!!!