There is nothing mentally wrong with me. My reserved demeanor was absolutely a result of his AOs as you have deduced. He would often refer to me as being stubborn, but my "stubbornness" was just the way my refusal to let him know he got to me looked to him.

How do you behave like a loving, enthusiastic wife when you can just look forward to being ripped down at any "provocation" again. I couldn't even predict what behavior might spark one - or else I would not have broken that particular eggshell.

Yes - I can even one-up that. I have re-re-read them. :-)

I'm still absorbing everything.

"Stubborn" is just name-calling - a disrespectful judgment. Like all demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts, it's an abuse and control technique. It basically comes down to this:

"Why must you be so stubborn - why don't you just give me what I want?"

Sunny, do you listen to the MB radio show?

You don't. You write a nice letter saying that you look forward to building a marriage you can be enthusiastic about together - one where neither of you abuses and controls the other. You stick it on the outside of the door with his stuff, and you change the locks.

If there's one thing Marriage Builders stands against, it's FAKING ENTHUSIASM. You don't feel enthusiastic because your God-given feelings are telling you there's something wrong here. It's an important emotional barometer that you and your husband need to learn to listen to.

But instead he calls it "stubbornness."

I agree with you.

I listen to the links to a particular show given in the threads (both my threads as well as most others, including all others who have anything similar to my situation). Sometimes I listen to the daily show as well.

The shows reinforce over and over what you have all made so obvious.

I have been doing this since 2005, and to a lesser scope even for many years prior.

If the AOs would have ever stopped, it probably wouldn't have taken too long for me to stop behaving reactively and gradually finding the enthusiasm again. In fact, a few times they subsided for a few months at a time when he really focused on trying, and I could see if the rest of our lives were like that, I'd probably be OK.

They just kept popping up again, so I'd despair that the "real" him had never changed, that the less-AO version was fakery that he couldn't sustain.

(That's why I encourage people to listen: reinforcement. Go listen every day - your thinking will change, in very healthy ways.)

That would perfectly describe me and Prisca up through last year.

Bingo! Can you do this, Sunny?

Yes Melody Lane. I did this in July sans locks but with a letter similar to your suggestion, and I can do it again.

In July he was willing to move out to work on the M and was taking steps to do so. I probably should not have stopped the process, but was very concerned about how his exit would be managed since my daughter was there and I was not.

Also, H's counter-condition was that he would never step foot into our home until our marriage was restored (not even to stay with our teens if I needed to travel for my job or any other reason). M said this knowing that my deployed DS21 was depending on me to stay with his baby for 2 weeks in September (had been arranged for months prior). When I asked him of his plan for our DS21 commitment, he said that was DS21's problem. H couldn't stay with the baby instead because he didn't have enough vacation. Great to say, except with DS21 deployed, how would DS21 care for his baby here at home? DS21 had no option to come home!

If H refused to come inside the home to stay with our teenagers while I helped DS21, I either would have left DS21 stranded or really inconvenienced my mother (have her travel to stay with our teens in our home for 2 weeks during her prime harvest time).

I felt boxed into stopping the process at that moment for the sake of my kids. Perhaps this was his strategy.

I agree with you that waiting and that smoothing over until Jan is not the best option. Some prior commitments make it impossible in the next two days, but I see the wisdom as you suggest of not waiting beyond that.

H is very warm to the idea of UA time, but, to build what? More of the same?

BTW, we received HNHN for our wedding. Our marriage was floundering almost from the outset. H was wonderfully affectionate while we were dating (a high EN of mine) but stopped almost cold turkey upon the M. I was chasing after him for affection as well as in general, many elements of a protective, caring relationship. The "heart" side of the marriage felt very much one sided. When I read HNHN, it put words to my problem and made so much sense! I asked H several times to read it but he would always decline.

I tried to meet his needs anyway, but for various reasons one after the other became uncomfortable, so by year 5 I had started to realize our M would never be the M of my dreams. Separation or divorce was still not an option in my mind - I didn't know I would ultimately need that until now in this last year. I always thought somehow I'd live through it.

I haven't delivered the message yet after his refusal to read HNHN again last night, but learning how to treat a woman lovingly HAS to be in our path forward.

The thing is: he does not need to move out to work on the marriage. The problem is that he has told you he is unwilling to work on the marriage. Therefore, you need him gone.

If he were willing to work on the marriage, then he would not have to move out!

I agree there is no point in pursuing UA time if he won't agree to the whole program. And he does not agree so there is no point in leaving yourself open to continued abuse.

When will you tell him?

Do you have a locksmith who can change the locks?

Here's what Dr. Harley said to Prisca when she posted about UA:


He didn't even answer her question about UA - there was no point to UA as long as I was having angry outbursts.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2495463#Post2495463

You can't fill a bucket when you keep emptying it all the time! And kicking holes in it, too.

Great advice, Prisca.

Thankfully, I've been able to compartmentalize the emotional impact to just my relationship with my H. I think the kids' experience of me is a generally well grounded, stable mother. They don't see me upset or crying or in an emotional condition. Also, I consciously try very hard to be the parent that's slow to anger, and when angry, keeps a focus on resolving the problem (not lashing out) since my H can be quick to anger. They don't need two excitable parents. I am not perfect, but generally do OK with this.

However, DS21 and DS19 are mirroring some of H's marital behaviors since that is the "normal" they know, which is causing or has caused some challenges in their wife/girlfriend relationships. I know 19 is very young, but DS19 has found an amazing girlfriend, a wonderful young woman. She is kind, generous, loving, always serving him, admiring. All the things any man would love in his wife. DS19 takes it for granted without much return effort and sometimes not showing kindness to her. For the rest of his life, she will be "the one that got away". He is very attached to her but doesn't know how to behave lovingly. I've sent him some links to MB. DS21 has had some adjustments to make as well, as his wife was expecting a more properly warm M.

Bottom line is I can now see the lasting effects of the path I chose. The other children are not in relationships yet.

All of the thinks to the private forums return a message "access denied". My user acct must not have the privileges to read them.

Yes, I only put those in so those who are following along who do have access can go see where he said that. I'm an obsessive footnoter.

Anyway, we paid all that money so Dr. Harley could tell my wife that, and we're handing it out to you for free.

Back to the important, action oriented questions:

Tonight I'll tell him not learning about HNHN and Lovebusters is a deal breaker, and what is his choice (to learn them or not) under that condition? If his choice is still no, then I will take action as you have suggested, knowing that he made an informed choice without any surprises. I'll know that I ran that LAST mile to confirm.

I feel a bit like Gideon who had to get all his confirmations confirmed yet again. But then I'll KNOW there wasn't a stone left unturned which is important to my future peace of mind, as well as my firm conviction that this separation would met the standard set in 1 Cor 7:13: And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. (i.e. by inference the opposite - if he is not pleased to live with her, let her leave him).

If his answer is still a "no", I will move forward as advised here. If his answer is "yes" but he doesn't pick up the book (or study the site) within one week, then I will also take it as a "no" and move forward as advised here.

Reading my wilting flower posts here, you'd be surprised at what I do for work - I'm the person chosen to take and win large calculated risks; not paralyzed by any means. I feel like I've had to assume a separate persona with my H for the survival of the M - which as you have pointed out and I have learned, has not been a good thing.

I have to run off to Taxi Mom duties for the rest of the evening, but heartily thank everyone for the time they have spent on my posts. Thank you for the great advice.

Markos, it looks like our posts "crossed in the mail".

Thank you for following up after me. Hopefully my answer is a solid next step.

Thank you!