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Alada, while you should not be put off taking action - don't confuse that with REACTION to their traps.

There will be many traps set to make you lose your cool and react. That's why you will need to go into Plan B and protect yourself soon.

In the meantime complete exposure and Plan A on your terms, cooly and calmly.

If the parents will refuse to fund her A, that will be a huge blow to the A.

Last edited by indiegirl; 10/18/13 07:39 AM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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I'd recommend no direct communication with OW, but most definitely her parents should be on the exposure list. An Intelius search, about $15 last I checked, would give a list of likely relatives, as well as close acquaintances who have shared an address with OW.


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
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Neak's Story
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Originally Posted by Neak
I'd recommend no direct communication with OW, but most definitely her parents should be on the exposure list. An Intelius search, about $15 last I checked, would give a list of likely relatives, as well as close acquaintances who have shared an address with OW.


I'd agree with this. OW is just going to blow up her temper and distress her. Plus there is no reason to speak with her. But she needs to discover if the parents are allies.

I can almost smell OW's fear regarding her parents. I am sure this is what all these threats regarding the dean are aimed at - keeping Alada quiet so her parents don't find out.

They may be too ashamed to speak to Alada about what their daughter has done, so I would offer some encouragement, 'I know you must be concerned' etc and offering her contact number could help overcome that.

If nothing else I'd send them a copy of the Plan B letter with a cover note so they can see their daughter is the cause of a separation.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Thank you all for your comments and recomendation.

Just want to clarify a few points that make this a bit more complicated.

I�m not in the USA, she is no in the USA. Her father is in the USA and does not live with them. Her mother abandoned them a few years ago. Trying to contact their parents would be a tremendous effort and I�m not sure I would be able to locate them.

I know the OW boyfriend�s know, but I�m pretty sure she denied everything. Her siblings, which are all younger do not know.

I live in Cd. Juarez, and violence here is an everyday reality. I�m very worried about this, even if the OW is not a drugdealer, I�m sure she can get someone to do a dirty job for her.

After my Wh told me about the calls we had an argument. He is still here, but we are changing hes phone number, and to me it still feels like plan A. He has been reading this particular thread now and is completely aware of your recomendations, and knows that any other indication of contact will send me into plan B.


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Will he post here?


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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He doesn't an account and is not fluent in english


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Do you live where your family is? Can you move?


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Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by kerala
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Well that just shows you how sincere her apology was!

A vet on here was contacted by an apologetic OW and the BW asked her to repay the money her H spent during the A. As it was not sincere, the OW refused.

I'd let Mr & Mrs hoforadaughter know that she

A) got involved with a man who neglected his (pregnant? Nursing?) Wife and baby. They know about the baby, right?
B) torments you with insincere apologies
C) refuses to end the A and maintains contact.

Just be aware that any kind of communication to her side poses professional risks for you.


I for one don�t negotiate with terrorists. Especially absurd ones. This woman is attacking Alada's marriage and 'threatening' to tell the Dean on her unless she capitulates- which is an absurd bluff.

This adulterous student is NEVER going to go telling the dean about her disgusting affair and how she should be left alone to pursue it.

We see these kinds of threats from waywards every day: "I'm going to sue you for telling the truth!" - it is always a bluff.

What possible grievance can come as a result of telling this girl's poor parents the truth in a calm, factual way? If Alada keeps the information she sends them in email format, she can save it to provide to anyone at work who asks what was said later on.

Not doing anything would only achieve a) helping to deceive the girl's parents and b) throwing the marriage of her baby's parents under a bus.

Are we seriously suggesting these parents should be kept in the dark about this? Imagine if this is what your daughter was doing with your money at college.

I doubt this college is so corrupt that Alada is going to lose her job on the lightest word of a corrupt student. We should not be encouraging Alada to be cowed by silly threats.

If she does this calmly and retains all record of what is exchanged, she is going to be fine.

The OW is hoping Alada is so cowed by her silly threats she will step back and shut up.

Huh? OP hasn't "shut up". She told her frigging dean! OW's secret is already out.

Contacting her parents is a risk. In my institution it would be seen as harassment - no lies from OW required. OP is totally within her purview to take that step but my pointing out the plain risks to her does not warrant all the indignation.

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Originally Posted by kerala
Huh? OP hasn't "shut up". She told her frigging dean! OW's secret is already out.

Contacting her parents is a risk. In my institution it would be seen as harassment - no lies from OW required. OP is totally within her purview to take that step but my pointing out the plain risks to her does not warrant all the indignation.

I get indignant when exposure is discouraged, yes. The OW and WH don't give a hoot about the dean. He is not a potential in-law. All they have to do with the dean is lay low for a while.

I'm sure you realise that OW will remain an option for WH until the affair is exposed on her side.

I don�t see any reason at all not to expose on her side as it is not harassment to tell the truth. Harassment involves repeatedly contacting someone who has asked you not to. Informing someone of facts pertinent to their life is not harassment. You must belong to a very strange institution if helpful information and truth is considered harassment.

Men go back to the OW as much as 20 years after the original affair unless it is properly exposed. Alada has the future of her young family to think of and it is important she does this right NOW.

Alada, you said you contacted her parents earlier - are you SURE they are aware of what is going on? Could she have intercepted the messages? You need to kill any hope she has of introducing him as a single man to her parents; now or in the future. For your future security.

Last edited by indiegirl; 10/20/13 08:49 AM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by Alada
I live in Cd. Juarez, and violence here is an everyday reality. I�m very worried about this, even if the OW is not a drugdealer, I�m sure she can get someone to do a dirty job for her.


Alada, if that's true she could have done that a long time ago, before you even found out. If violence is a danger (and I don�t think you have any reason apart from fear to think she is violent do you?), exposure can only help keep you safer. The more people who are keeping an eye on her then the more likely it is she will behave.

Originally Posted by Alada
After my Wh told me about the calls we had an argument. He is still here, but we are changing hes phone number, and to me it still feels like plan A. He has been reading this particular thread now and is completely aware of your recomendations, and knows that any other indication of contact will send me into plan B.



Alada it is very important you do not argue with him. You should not say anything angry and disrespectful and you should ignore any of that from him and walk away. Is he trying to provoke you? Please don�t fall for it. Be very cool.

Will he write a no contact letter and change his contact details like phone and email?




What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by indiegirl
[You must belong to a very strange institution if helpful information and truth is considered harassment.

PROFESSIONAL ETHICS AND ACADEMIC RESPONSIBILITY

The faculty member owes to the student and the University a fair and impartial evaluation of the student's work; such evaluation should be consistent with recognized standards.

Because academic freedom has traditionally included the faculty member's full freedom as a citizen, most faculty members face no insoluble conflicts between the claims of politics, social action, and conscience, on the one hand, and the claims and expectations of their students, colleagues, and institutions on the other. If such conflicts become acute, and the faculty member's attention to his or her obligations as a citizen and moral agent precludes the fulfillment of substantial academic obligations, the responsibility of that choice cannot be escaped, but the faculty member should either request a leave of absence or resign his or her academic position.


A university's charter is to increase knowledge in fields of study and educate students. Its policies and procedures stem from that charter. The state of an individual's marriage is of no concern to the institution. When professors accept the job of educating students, they agree to the abide by the code of ethics of the profession.

If Alada wants to follow the MB program, she should certainly follow the advice she is given. No one is arguing this. The issue is her timing. If she takes these actions before the instructor-student relationship has formally ended, she may or may not have a position after her interaction with the OW and her family/friends have concluded. She also may have ongoing legal issues with the OW, which will keep her (OW) involved long after the affair may end.

If she takes them after she has formally ended this highly problematic relationship, then, well, no worries, at least in the professional arena.

I think the advice that some of us are trying to give is to IMMEDIATELY END the professional relationship with the OW.

Then, have at all the rest....

If Alada acts before ending this relationship, she takes the chance of professional repercussions which may be long-lasting. Is education a strange institution? Yes. "It is what it is," as the kids say these days.

Alada is now an informed consumer.

Good luck with however you choose to time your actions.

BV


Me - WW/BW - 49
Him - CGIR - WH/BH 49
Married 27 years, together 33 (HS sweethearts)
No kids
DDay #1 - 1989 EA co-worker
DDay #2 - 2004 internet porn
DDay #3 - July 2006 EA different co-worker
DDay #4 - Aug. 2006 EA with OW #2 was actually a PA
DDay #5 - Sept. 2010 False recovery - H dishonest about both affairs and porn usage
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Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by kerala
Huh? OP hasn't "shut up". She told her frigging dean! OW's secret is already out.

Contacting her parents is a risk. In my institution it would be seen as harassment - no lies from OW required. OP is totally within her purview to take that step but my pointing out the plain risks to her does not warrant all the indignation.

I get indignant when exposure is discouraged, yes. The OW and WH don't give a hoot about the dean. He is not a potential in-law. All they have to do with the dean is lay low for a while.

...

I don�t see any reason at all not to expose on her side as it is not harassment to tell the truth.[b]Harassment involves repeatedly contacting someone who has asked you not to. Informing someone of facts pertinent to their life is not harassment. You must belong to a very strange institution if helpful information and truth is considered harassment. [/]

You are just showing your lack of knowledge of the milieu, Indie. We are not talking about criminal OR civil harassment, but administrative, owing to OP's position within the organization to which OW also belongs but in an inferior, subordinate position. The OP's desire/ethical urge to be helpful to OW's parents is not worth a hill of beans to most academic employers.

You do realize, right, that it would constitute misconduct/breach of privacy for a professor to reveal details of a student's wrongdoing to her parents? Like, say, academic fraud? Even if it seemed the rght thing to do?

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This adultery is outside the scope of the classroom. No facts gained from the professor/student relationship are being shared. I fail to see that privately revealing private misconduct, with revealing and misconduct both outside the venue of academia, constitutes a breach.


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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Originally Posted by kerala
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by kerala
Huh? OP hasn't "shut up". She told her frigging dean! OW's secret is already out.

Contacting her parents is a risk. In my institution it would be seen as harassment - no lies from OW required. OP is totally within her purview to take that step but my pointing out the plain risks to her does not warrant all the indignation.

I get indignant when exposure is discouraged, yes. The OW and WH don't give a hoot about the dean. He is not a potential in-law. All they have to do with the dean is lay low for a while.

...

I don�t see any reason at all not to expose on her side as it is not harassment to tell the truth.[b]Harassment involves repeatedly contacting someone who has asked you not to. Informing someone of facts pertinent to their life is not harassment. You must belong to a very strange institution if helpful information and truth is considered harassment. [/]

You are just showing your lack of knowledge of the milieu, Indie. We are not talking about criminal OR civil harassment, but administrative, owing to OP's position within the organization to which OW also belongs but in an inferior, subordinate position. The OP's desire/ethical urge to be helpful to OW's parents is not worth a hill of beans to most academic employers.

You do realize, right, that it would constitute misconduct/breach of privacy for a professor to reveal details of a student's wrongdoing to her parents? Like, say, academic fraud? Even if it seemed the rght thing to do?


The UK academic institutions I work with (I also work with academic unions iin the UK) would not reveal in-class wrongdoing like academic fraud to parents, no.

But we are not talking about academic fraud are we?

They would reveal other types of wrongdoing which broke the law or endangered a child for example. Even if that information was given confidentially in a classroom.

I'm not at all familiar with the rules your country's academic institutions have (or Alada's for that matter) but I find it surprising beyond belief it extends to things taking place completely outside of the classroom environment and teacher pupil relationship.

With such rules in place, the OW could break into Alada's home and she would not be able to call the police or take it to court!

Last edited by indiegirl; 10/21/13 04:37 AM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by brokenvase
I think the advice that some of us are trying to give is to IMMEDIATELY END the professional relationship with the OW.


That is very good advice and should be step one for Alada for a number of reasons.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by kerala
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by kerala
Huh? OP hasn't "shut up". She told her frigging dean! OW's secret is already out.

Contacting her parents is a risk. In my institution it would be seen as harassment - no lies from OW required. OP is totally within her purview to take that step but my pointing out the plain risks to her does not warrant all the indignation.

I get indignant when exposure is discouraged, yes. The OW and WH don't give a hoot about the dean. He is not a potential in-law. All they have to do with the dean is lay low for a while.

...

I don�t see any reason at all not to expose on her side as it is not harassment to tell the truth.[b]Harassment involves repeatedly contacting someone who has asked you not to. Informing someone of facts pertinent to their life is not harassment. You must belong to a very strange institution if helpful information and truth is considered harassment. [/]

You are just showing your lack of knowledge of the milieu, Indie. We are not talking about criminal OR civil harassment, but administrative, owing to OP's position within the organization to which OW also belongs but in an inferior, subordinate position. The OP's desire/ethical urge to be helpful to OW's parents is not worth a hill of beans to most academic employers.

You do realize, right, that it would constitute misconduct/breach of privacy for a professor to reveal details of a student's wrongdoing to her parents? Like, say, academic fraud? Even if it seemed the rght thing to do?


The UK academic institutions I work with (I also work with academic unions iin the UK) would not reveal in-class wrongdoing like academic fraud to parents, no.

But we are not talking about academic fraud are we?

They would reveal other types of wrongdoing which broke the law or endangered a child for example. Even if that information was given confidentially in a classroom.

I'm not at all familiar with the rules your country's academic institutions have (or Alada's for that matter) but I find it surprising beyond belief it extends to things taking place completely outside of the classroom environment and teacher pupil relationship.

With such rules in place, the OW could break into Alada's home and she would not be able to call the police or take it to court!

This. What the other people quoted Alada have to due with student privacy violation. You are not sharing any information regarding the student's academic information rather you are reporting her social conduct outside of academics. As long as you are being impartial regarding her grades and that can be verified if needed then you have nothing to worry about professionally.

What you are doing is nothing different than reporting a student has broken a law. You did not obtain the information you are sharing in confidence of the student and it has nothing to do with her academic privacy.

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Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by brokenvase
I think the advice that some of us are trying to give is to IMMEDIATELY END the professional relationship with the OW.


That is very good advice and should be step one for Alada for a number of reasons.

I do agree that you should update your Dean about the threat the student made to you. It is a code of conduct violation on the students part to make threats to faculty and she should be punished accordingly for her actions. In other words call her bluff, the Dean already knows whats going on and the fact that you are so open and are communicating everything gives you a position of strength if the student tries to bring anything to their attention. You as the professional educator should have already come forward and the university should not be blindsided by anything you havent already divulged.

Tell the Dean that you are trying to comply with their request to handle the student but that you are also working to repair your marriage. Tell them that you want them fully informed especially since this student made a threat to you and if they feel it is ok for you complete the student's education then you will comply but that you felt they need to know the actions of the student. It is the Dean's responsibility to look out for the University's well being and if brushing this under the rug can be a potential scandal in the future then it is then the Dean's responsibilty to take action and not yours.

Protect yourself and if this ever becomes a legal or professional issue for you then you at least have the evidence that you did everything in your power to do the right thing. (Buy a VAR and make sure you record all conversations with the Dean so you have evidence of his/her direction.

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I've been talking with the Dean, and I'll be writting a set of questions and answers for OW's final. He will then chose the questions, apply the exam and grade it.

It's the best I can do.

With regards to the exposure, she has been denying evertyhing to everyone she's been exposed, including to the dean. I do have evidences but nobody has asked me for them, and I'm making a file of all the conversations with the Dean, OW and WH to keep on file in case I need them. It's so absurd that I have to do all this to protect myself.


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You're one step ahead though.

You sound good. What self care are you doing?

Will WH commit to NC?


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by Neak
This adultery is outside the scope of the classroom. No facts gained from the professor/student relationship are being shared. I fail to see that privately revealing private misconduct, with revealing and misconduct both outside the venue of academia, constitutes a breach.

Not to side-track this thread, BUT...

here is the issue:

Fair and impartial treatment of students is part of the code of ethics of Alada's profession. Because of the adultery between Alada's husband and her student, Alada cannot possibly grade this woman's work fairly and impartially. Due to this fatal conflict of interest, the instructor-student relationship MUST end.

A low or failing grade in a course is likely to have repercussions for the student. For example, the student may have to retake the course, at a financial loss (because the student will need to pay for the course twice). Additionally, a low or failing grade on a transcript may have longer-term effects, such as a student's reduced ability to complete a certificate or degree program, obtain acceptance into a graduate program or obtain employment. Alada's OW would likely file a grievance, arguing that her low grade reflected bias on Alada's part, not her actual work in the course. The OW may also argue that Alada created a hostile learning environment for her. Unfortunately, "she is sleeping with my husband" is NOT a valid reason for an instructor to create a hostile learning environment. An instructor can NEVER create a hostile learning environment for ANY reason; it is counter to the code of ethics of the profession.

When the OW files her grievance and presents her evidence, directions to not attend classes, print-outs of exposure letters and tales of screaming matches over the phone will NOT work in Alada's favor.

As a more far more dramatic, but parallel example, do you think a doctor who is a BW should treat her husband's OW immediately following D-day? If the BW did, and the OW suffered and filed a malpractice suit, how'd you think it would turn out? (Yes, I understand that life-saving medical procedures and coursework are not the same, but I think the issue of imbalance of power is being missed).

'Nuff said.

Caveat emptor.

BV


Me - WW/BW - 49
Him - CGIR - WH/BH 49
Married 27 years, together 33 (HS sweethearts)
No kids
DDay #1 - 1989 EA co-worker
DDay #2 - 2004 internet porn
DDay #3 - July 2006 EA different co-worker
DDay #4 - Aug. 2006 EA with OW #2 was actually a PA
DDay #5 - Sept. 2010 False recovery - H dishonest about both affairs and porn usage
DDay# 6 - Sept. 26, 2010 - Full disclosure - 1989 EA was actually a PA and lasted one year. 2006 PA more extensive than originally thought. 1992 ONS with prostitute.
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