*feel

That's not true. You can be passionately in love without having intercourse with someone even SF is your top need. Just as long as the person does a good job of meeting your other needs, you can be in love. Sexual performance is not a good indicator of sexual compatibility anyway. A woman can "perform" well in bed, but then decide to shut you out after marriage if you don't do a good job of meeting her needs. A better indicator is marrying someone who desires you and is committed to making you happy in your marriage.

I put sexual fulfillment in the same category as financial support, it is something that can be fulfilled AFTER marriage. What if a woman asked you to support her for a few years before she would marry you to make sure you did it well enough?

Exactly. So if gerold marries a porn star based on her sexual performance, she won't likely have sex with him anymore if he doesn't do a good job of meeting her needs. Women need 2 things to desire sex: an emotional attachment and the prospect of enjoyment. Otherwise it is a big YUCK!

Correct me if I'm wrong Gerold but I am pretty certain you would not fulfill a woman's need for total financial support before commitment just so she could have a test run and to get her love bank filled to the brink, before making a decision on whether she would marry you. Yet men want that with women around sexual fulfillment often I have found.

I think you are hung up on the orgasm. A orgasm is not required for a woman to enjoy SF. Seems like many men have a hard time believing that and focus too much on orgasm as a measuring stick.

If you can't have good IC with a woman, you will probably have poor communication with her...and if there is any issues with SF, neither of you will be good at communicating about SF issues. Round and round, you will go...

x 2

In this radio clip, Dr. Harley explains that even though sexual fulfillment is a top emotional need of most men, what really bonds them to their partners is intimate conversation - hence, no need for premarital sex in order for them to feel "in love."

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=00940

I'd also say there is such a thing as good orgasms which happen within overall bad SF. An orgasm reached is irrelevant if the overall experience is lacking. It's particularly common when there is no emotional bond. The guy sees the girl orgasm and thinks: "job done!"

Dr Harley gets this completely and says if any of the stages, including the post-orgasm stage is lacking, then a woman will feel like she doesn't want to repeat the experience.

Significantly, the post orgasm stage is very emotionally focused:



I can't imagine how a man could possibly complete this stage correctly if he is not yet in love, or the woman is not feeling secure in his love.

Even if she was able to reach orgasm, if she was not in love or relaxed, she simply would not feel the way she is supposed to feel at this point.

As time went on, she would want sex less and less with the man. She'd possibly learn from the experience and wait before getting sexual next time. OR she would not see the cause, try the same act again with a different man and repeat the renter's loop indefinitely.

By doing this you could actually take a perfectly fine female sex drive and ruin it with frustrating experiences.

I think lots of women do this very thing. Luckily they do it less as time goes on. I heard these stories far more often in college than I do today.

Women in their thirties need lots of persuasion and reassurance and romance, thank heaven.

I don't know how old Livy is, but we have an example right here of a woman who tried one way and found it unworkable over time.

I'm 38

And I agree with everything you have just said.

Its kind of like Pavlov's dog .... if the experience is rewarding it will continue, if the experience is unpleasant then it will likely cease.

A woman needs to feel loved is the bottom line. You cannot forget this key component. If a man's standard is to believe he's a great sexual partner by just giving the woman an orgasm, well he'll believe what he wants. His sexual escapades will likely end with that woman.

Keep in mind the older you get the more likely that person will have developed bad habits. It is very difficult to change a person ... and it is often harder for that person to even want to change. If your goal is to grow old with a renter, then continue on the path of making SF part of the interview process.

If you want to grow old with a buyer, then your plan is on this forum, and SF will need to follow a particular path.

There are countless women on this thread stating that we need more to our SF. I couldn't imagine settling for a man who will put his SF needs above my care and his desire to meet my needs. That doesn't sound like a successful process...it sounds like sacrifice, and we know where sacrifice leads (neglect, conflict, and bad habits). I would be more than happy to have SF with a man who cares for me, and has the thoughtfulness in meeting my needs. I would be through the roof excited to have SF with him.

To me a man who is spectacular in bed is the one who can keep going and going and going ... daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly. What better way to know your great in bed than by having your partner longing for more....and as Dr. Harley has said starting on page 52 in HNHN there are several key parts to SF, and orgasm is simply one component.

I agree with Indie ... a woman in their 30's and 40's expect more from their sexual experience than when we were younger .... it's time to bring out the taker.

I honestly question any mans ability to care for me if he demands an audition sexually first. How utterly insulting....we are not just pieces of meat. We are human with feelings.

One thing men also need to understand is that for many women, sex IS love/attachment. It is easier for a man to have sex with a woman without emotional attachment. A woman could sleep with a complete loser and feel in love/attached right away.

For women like this, it can be dangerous for us to fulfill SF with a man without commitment, because we lose sight of judging character wisely. I know this is true for me, maybe it is not true for some, but it is for me. We put our eggs in one basket once there is SF.

Very well stated alis, this is true for myself as well. I expect to remain celibate well past my divorce (which is taking an eternity to occur). It is emotionally safer and sets a good example for my children.

Some are starting to project bad experiences here and I am sensing some passive-aggressive replies aswell.
My intentions are good; I am here to learn!

It's NOT because I discovered SF as a top need THIS SUMMER, I am asking (or implying) my dates to have sex with me.
I actually told ALL my 3th dates in the beginning of this year, I do NOT want to have sex at all yet!
I am honest and tell them I want to get to know them first and that I am dating other people aswell.

If anything, that turned women to actively pursue me sexually!
One date wanted to have sex after an intimate date and I respectfully declined.
She felt rejected, questioned my hetero sexuality and never answered any call or e-mail after that!

Two other dates asked to sleep over after a dinner at my place this summer.
But on both occassions they ASKED ME to have sex with them as soon as we got to bed�
One girl even said:
"Did it ever occur to you I WANT sex with you"
when I replied that she did not HAVE to meet SF for me to date her.

I am sorry, I cannot deny a woman's request for SF anymore!
That does not work either�

How do you hold out on sex when woman are initiating themselves anyway?

Yeah....that'll do it!

Its funny because after I advised you to not make SF a requirement, I got to thinking about how you might have that problem because of how much women like that.

In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

In a world were everyone expects women to be sexual from the get-go the no-pressure guy is enormously sexy.

I was driving home and thinking: "If GM does tell them he wants to wait - he'll be beseiged!"

I'll go right back to my examples of friends who worked real hard at their dating life. Buying lingerie, talking about sex with their friends etc. All for men they hardly knew.

If they did all that prep work and the guy then turned them down, they would be outraged!

However, trust me, they are jumping the gun.

The SF will be better and more sustainable once an emotional bond has been formed. The fact that they don't know this doesn't bode well for their chances of being a good SF partner. They could well turn into one of those wives on the MB 101 forum who make sure to have sex with their Hs once a fortnight but only because they believe its what a man needs.

I think it interferes with a man's gameplan too of slowly watching a woman's desire grow for him as her feelings grow. That is such a fun game: I don't know why anyone skips it.



Hmmm. I'd keep looking. It sounds like they were trying to 'make it happen' from a fairly cold, very early start. That screams 'willing to sacrifice' to me.

Some women are DEAD set on sacrifice. These are the women to avoid. Sacrifice always kills the sex drive eventually.

Yeah, some women have a high sex drive and haven't heard of MB. That's true but they would enjoy the lead-up more than what you describe here. Take more pleasure in the anticipation. Its like these women view it more as the test part of the interview they want to sit right away.

If you had told me that you and a gf were emotionally bonded and were not able to keep it from turning into SF, I wouldn't have much to say against it. Like I said earlier I don't know of any studies which find premarital sex to be bad per se.

But it does sound a little off that these women are in such a hurry before forming an emotional bond. I wouldn't view it as a good thing.

You could just say: "I don't do casual sex". Its not on them to have the self control to make your sexual decisions for you. Anyway, that's the kind of thing most women would like to hear! IF they were looking for a relationship. Strive for buyers.

Well SHE sounds nice! Very mature. She's given you a nice little insight into how respectfully she would behave during any disagreement. Instant DJ! I don't think you rejected her at all, but I think you should.



You CALLED her after that??!!!!!



And emailed??!!!

I want you to know that I can't access the little icons on here when I'm on my smartphone. I specifically logged into my laptop so I could use the 'roll on the floor laughing' icon and correctly express my amusement about this floozie to you.

It's kindly meant. Gerold, you're way too good for this calibre of woman. Where are you meeting them?

I don't think it is fair to assume passive-aggressive behavior is happening here.

This is a marriage-building forum. The purpose of this forum is to build strong, lasting marriages.

All of us bring bad choices, bad habits, and lessons learned here because we know what adultery and divorce feels like.

The goal is to learn good habits that will support great marriages.

Gerold ... if you have no desire to marry any of your partners, and simply want to move from renter to renter then why are you on this forum?

If you are a freeloader and have no desire to move to renter or buyer with a woman, then why are you on a marriage building website?