I think you're just hanging with the wrong guys

Because many men can have sex (and enjoy it!!) with a woman they do not love. It's the testosterone in their systems that creates desire and is almost entirely independent from the relationship (or lack of one).

NED - yes more than likely
Although I believe in Christian principles I'm not really a Christian and even lately I've lost my connection with God - not sure what I believe anymore.
It would seem only religious guys hold my values

OK, so retire "fairly early" in my book is 62...not exactly spring chicken! Sorry, if I made it sound much younger! HOWEVER I'm looking for investment opportunities all the time that will get me to $2 million sooner than that. I figure $2M at 5% will allow me to live on $100K per year and not touch the principle (leave something for my kiddos).

For the record, my work history is:

* Missionary (low income, like $5000/yr)
* SAHM (no income)
* "Real" career begun after my divorce, at 34
* No alimony ever received
* $275/mo in child support for 3 kids
* No personal property from our divorce (there wasn't any)

And I'll still have $1.5 to $2M when I retire because I've been putting little bits in since I was 22. My ex will have about the same - or more: he's an only child and grandchild on both sides, with inheritance on the way - though his income is much lower than mine right now (hence the low child support) - and he's remarried to a doctor, so I'm sure it'll work out for him.

If a man doesn't have a similar plan, then I just know I'll have a hard time feeling secure. I mean - I was a missionary and a SAHM, I got nothing from my divorce, and my plan is to retire at 62 (sooner, if my IRA keeps cranking like it's been!)

So, as to #8 - if a guy said to me, "Hey there, l'il filly! I figure I'll have a cool $1M by 55, and so will you. That's $2M. How's about we retire at 55 with $2M between us, and have some fun?"

Well, that would be FABULOUS!!!

...and you know, living in the Caribbean can be surprisingly cheap - so cheap we could afford to fly home often...and live by the ocean...and bring the grandkids for 3 months every summer...and eat fresh seafood every day...(sigh)

What am I doing on this forum?!? ....I've only got 15 years to find this guy!

What does a man have to offer that he is willing to share with hardly ANYONE?

His money.

What does a woman have to offer that she is willing to share with hardly ANYONE?

Her body.

This is the point. It's the value to the individual of what is being offered.

Men don't see what a "big deal" sex is to a woman, because to them, it's not a "big deal." But touch their money and HOOOO BOY! I see it every day on the forum and hear it in the guys I date: they are very concerned that they not be "taken advantage of" financially.

This is the same concern women have about sex: they don't want to be taken advantage of sexually. It's precious to women. We're talking about our bodies, our most intimate parts.

In fact, sex is SO intimate, I think the dude SHOULD pony up financially while dating!! Money isn't nearly as intimate as sex!

Let's start a revolution...Dowries all around!!!

This sounds like a painful, sad place to be. I'm sorry Livy.


Sex: I think "no" is a perfectly acceptable answer. It's clear and simple. No explanations needed - this is YOUR BODY we're talking about

If he pressures you or puts you down, then you know you've found a man who does not respect boundaries - i.e. not a "keeper."

Take care of yourself, first. Everything else will fall into place, dear.

A lot of interesting and useful thoughts going around. Thanks!!

Here are some of my own:

The sex thing doesn't really apply to me since I am a believer and won't be looking for sex before marriage (but LOTS after marriage). Anyway, during the dating process any girl I'm dating will be able to see what I can offer, and if it gets serious I'll make sure she knows that after the wedding, it's all hers, along with a promise to meet her other needs as well.

As for the retirement thing. I think one man's sip is another man's gulp.

Zhamila, your first message lead me to believe that you were looking for straight up independently wealthy, but your second message clarified that to be what I call reasonable retirement saving.

I also have a 401k, have a bit of money in it (even though the exWW got half), and contribute a pretty good amount. From last January to today I'm averaging a 16.5% return on investment, so I'm having a good year. According to the calculators, assuming 1% per year wage increase, 10% return, and current matching and balance, I'm expecting to be at 2.8m at 62. The real question is whether 2.8m will be worth anything at that point? That's a few years down the road, and the way the government is spending fabricated money, I'm not sure that will be enough.

Anyway, I've thought about other forms of investing above the 401k, however they seem to get a bit more risky. I can sell the airplane in a few years and get some rental property, but the airplane is much more fun.

As for the spousal support and child support, my exWW was a SAHM, so she didn't have any income, so I agreed to pay 24 mouths of spousal support on top of child support so she can get her degree. It's a bit of money which can make things tight, but soon it will end and she will have her degree.

Livy, Seems like you are in a tough spot. It sounds like you might be a believer that isn't religious, or something like that. No matter where you are, if you agree with the biblical moral standard, then don't bend on it. Just say no. Honestly, men have a lot more respect for women that say no. They don't act like it, but a decent man would feel better about dating you knowing that you have boundaries, and you are serious about them.

I think the biggest challenge for you is to say no in a way that communicates that you are interested, just not until after the commitment as you don't want a guy to think you aren't interested when you are.

Zhamila, you were a missionary? How cool!!! I would love to hear about that. I've always wanted to use the airplane to do missionary flying in roadless AK villages. I'm not there yet, but I think I'll be able to commit some time to it in the next few years.

I must say it's so nice having articulate, open, and honest women on this forum to answer questions. I've been out of the dating scene for so long I wasn't even sure what to thing or do, but I'm seeing that good women just want a good man that will meet her needs. I think the biggest challenge for all of us is just weeding through the renters and freeloaders.

ak

I am sorry!
I get what you are pointing at and I understand your frustration,
but this black & white comparison is absolute BS!

Money is equally important to both single men- & women...
as it is needed by both sexes for primary needs as food, water, shelter, energy, transport and general health... (Maslow et al.)

Both sexes should be careful not to put their means of survival on the table right away!
A "golddigger" does not work in a goldmine, if you catch my drift!

And these generalisations of values are not up-to-date either:
As if dating women do not have any money to support themselves,
cannot be taken advantage of financially or males cannot be used/abused by women sexually...

I have been supporting my best female friend (26) financially this year, as she is studying and in state-care. She broke up with her boyfriend and has no family to support her without abusing her emotionally.
So I chip in where the state fails... I do not require sex in exchange at all (YUK!)
In fact I could never exchange SF for money, but I know millions of woman on this planet do as a means of survival.

My friend is dating again and I will stop supporting her as soon as she is planning to start an exclusive relationship with some lucky fella.

Chipping in and helping a friend out, although supportive, is not the same as complete financial support. If your friend wanted to start making joint decisions on how you spend your money you would tell her where to stick it.

The reason you don't get the point that is being made is because you want to have sex with women without having to offer full financial support. I believe it is that simple, as it is for a lot of men. I stand by my original statement that it is a double standard, as well as staying open to being corrected as like I have said I am new to this.

Z hon that's pretty awesome about your net worth. I have a good paying job but I won't be able to amass that kind of wealth. Maybe my 401k stuff is too conservative or something. My financial adviser did say I should be able to retire a little early. I would love to start my own business and have been thinking about what kind.

I'm married now but when I was dating I would not have listed FS (i.e., support coming to me, personally) as a high need. I'm legally trained and dated lots of non-lawyers who made less than me. It didn't matter as long as they were able to do paid things with me that we both enjoyed. As I recall, I would offer to pay for meals somewhat regularly. My boyfriends would pay more often, but always appreciated the offer, and it just wasn't a big deal.

My husband makes more than me, and contributes more to the household. (He also has more modest spending habits.) It's certainly nice on a personal level, but as long as there was relative parity between us it would be ok if he made less (I'd say up to an 30% diff). Keep in mind we're both well-paid professionals.

Well, NED I don't have it "yet."



But I just keep plugging away. You might want to check into a different fund? When I switched jobs, I was able to roll my retirement into a few highly rated funds - they are fairly aggressive right now but dial back a bit as retirement nears. So, I've been getting 22% for the past 2 years, (though it could easily switch and could lose), then the rate of return slows down to a more conservative pitch. It's called a 2040 and 2035 (the years of proposed retirement). JP Morgan.

Money invested doubles about every 7 years. If you continue to contribute to it, it doubles more quickly. So, time is actually more valuable than money in this case. Even 5-7% into your retirement (and that's pre-tax) every year can really add up over time.

Ummm....you're talking about money here, not your "goods" - right???

Whew! I wouldn't want to be accused of being mercenary!

De plane! De plane!

"I think sometimes fun should trump rental property." - Albert Einstein


2 years in a Kenyan village - no electricity, no water, no english
4 years in an arab country - top secret, running a business
Best years of my life, toughest years too
It sort of gets in your blood and changes your very being

But please remember that I came back and shredded my own marriage with an affair. Then married a "godly" abuser (we divorced last year). So my glory days are gone. But I've learned a lot and just want to become a good woman who brings good things into the lives of those around me. I take in International students (Thanksgiving will be fun!), raise my children, and am trying to heal from the harms. Not a "good woman" per se - but working on it.


Totes. Though after messing up so much, I think a convent may be a better option for this kitten! Well, only if there's one on a beach somewhere....

Gerold, I think this is a great question for Dr. Harley. I'd love to hear what he has to say about women-sex-men-money, and whether it's "outdated."

I think he gets lots of flack for the Top 10 ENs - especially things like DS, FS and PA. Would love to hear how he responds to these ideas on the forum.

And for the record, I'm not frustrated at all

In my opinion, it is risky for anyone to completely rely on another person to fulfil FS.

Life is just too unpredictable.

Kerala, my mom told me that as a kid, too, never to rely on one source of income, because you don't know they could lose their job or fall ill. I think it's awesome how lots of kids have SAHMs but I was never at a point I wanted to make a leap into the unknown like that. But my kids liked preschool, those kind of kids who were disappointed when I got them early.

Just to be clear, I am not talking about planned absences from the workforce to take care of kids. Though those have to be carefully managed.

It's more the trust level that's involved that is, quite frankly, belied by many of the stories here. We don't advocate that for fidelity - so maybe people should take a harder look at the basis for their placing trust for their financial security in one person as well.

I don't rely on anyone for FS - I am currently in training and when I have finished I have no doubt I will be able to support myself abundantly. Although I truly have very little material desires. FS is low on my needs. The point I am personally trying to make is that many men I met want to be sexually fulfilled BEFORE they offer a woman commitment and yet if a woman asked them to give them real FS they would be horrified. It just feels like a really massive double standard.
And of course Gerold women can use men for sex and men can use women for money. I have lived, but generally men really do want sex before they offer a woman any kind of commitment and they just would never do that financially the other way round.

When you have FS as an emotional need, it is NOT something you can fulfill yourself. It must be done by another person.

Am I capable of supporting myself financially? Yes. If life were to throw me a curve ball, could I provide a comfortable living for me and my children? Yes. But I am not capable of fulfilling that emotional need for myself -- it is something that I must rely on markos to meet for me.

This is a good point. I suppose the same could be said for SF.
I mean, can opener accidents and all...

In all seriousness, I think the qualities a person has when they have achieved financial security (not inherited) are things that won't go away:

* Intelligence
* Self-control, the ability to make good long-term decisions
* Plans for the future
* Less implusive, able to be patient, think things through
* Values education, enough to pass that value along to their children
* Knows that little things can add up to mean a lot
* Are grateful for what they have and are generous with others
* Emotionally stable - not always in a panic about finances (or other things)

These are great qualities in any man (woman too), and a man who possesses them will probably be financially secure. So I suppose the thing women are looking for isn't "just" the money, it's all the character traits of a man who has been able to build a solid, secure life.

I mean, why would I want to be with an impulsive man who can't think past the moment, is uneducated, or pins his hopes on making a one-time 'big splash' in the lottery? Or a man who emotionally clings to 'toys' he can't afford, drains his 401k for random reasons, or is addicted to pleasure?

Not I.