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#2770402 12/11/13 03:01 PM
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Hello, I've been browsing this website for a couple months and just started reading Love Busters because of a desire to stop my AO. After finding this website I've found quite a few places to improve in my marriage.

I would like help with POJA. The set up: last pm DH arrived quite later after he texted he would arrive (~2 hours later). When he finally arrives it's time for kids' bedtimes and we have no chance to talk, much less me express my unhappiness with his tardiness and the shopping that was the cause. I settle for taking deep breaths and saying, "Would it be okay with you if you ask before coming home about stopping somewhere in case something's going one and I need you here?". My typical response would have been to just harrass him about it and make it a very unpleasant evening I think. He says okay.

I woke up saw he installed our new TV and wall mount in the middle of the night.

When I saw the TV installed I was upset and sad. We had discussed putting the TV up together for many reasons (placement mostly with regards to destructive children and height location). When I saw it the first thing I thought was telling him this am we have to redo it because of the location. After being up all night I feel that would not be the nice thing to say and instead want help with POJA. The TV mount is already up and now I have thought of two things to recommend: redoing it so children cannot get to TV, or leaving it and if children ruin TV then we just won't have a TV. I guess we could also pay a person to redo it but that would make me about 10x more upset.

I'm very emotional about this, probably too much so, mostly because of the lousy evening last night, no sleep because of this, and just thinking of all the things this represents: DH not doing this with me as we discussed, the time involved in a project just for himself (I didn't really want another TV but compromised on it), neglect of so many other projects that need attention in our house with priority to this, as well as him not spending time with me instead last night.

I feel like this needs to be addressed. I have had very little luck with POJA since I discovered this website. When I try it, I usually get agreement but then no follow through or DH forgets or he just blindly agrees with me (IMO). I think this is mostly due to my past tendency to just demand things. So I want to change and would appreciate some guidance.

I apologize if this seems to be a very minor issue on this forum. FWIW, we've been married 11 years. I ordered Fall in Love/Stay in Love and plan on asking DH to read it with me for my Christmas gift.

Last edited by Improve; 12/11/13 03:10 PM.

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I'm kind of new here but What I did was to make an outline on paper with the steps and POJA, PORH, Love Busters and Emotional needs. I also included the 15 hours of UA. My husband doesn't really like to read all that much and the outline helped. Then if he had questions about the program we came here for more examples and guidance. You can work on you a whole lot but I found presenting the program, steps and discussing it worked great. We did it together and it laid out some frame work for us. He learned about himself as well as me and he stepped up his game in participation. I hope to order some books and do the same. Some may not like my approach but my husband has ADD so I think taking his condition into mind and being considerate to that opened a door. I have to practice more patience myself.

MOTG #2770409 12/11/13 03:43 PM
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One thing it took me way too long too realize is that you have to figure out what is in it for him. What does he have to gain from a happy marriage.

My guess is that what may interest him is that you would get a few hours out of the house together, just by yourselves. Because my guess based on him stopping on the way home without telling you you is that he needs a break from the kids sometimes. What do you think? How old are the kids? Do you like to get out and take a break with him too?


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He doesn't like shopping as far as he's told me. When he does go shopping it's always after work so he doesn't have to make an extra trip to go shopping. I've asked in the past for him to do personal shopping on weekends d/t time constraints during the week. Our kids are young (toddler and elem school). Last weekend was our first date together in at least one year.

I am hopeful he'll read the book with me. In the past few years I've said we need MC (because we argue a lot). He says he doesn't think we have any problems or need that.


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Originally Posted By: Improve
Hello, I've been browsing this website for a couple months and just started reading Love Busters because of a desire to stop my AO. After finding this website I've found quite a few places to improve in my marriage.

I would like help with POJA. The set up: last pm DH arrived quite later after he texted he would arrive (~2 hours later). When he finally arrives it's time for kids' bedtimes and we have no chance to talk, much less me express my unhappiness with his tardiness and the shopping that was the cause. I settle for taking deep breaths and saying, "Would it be okay with you if you ask before coming home about stopping somewhere in case something's going one and I need you here?". My typical response would have been to just harrass him about it and make it a very unpleasant evening I think. He says okay.

I woke up saw he installed our new TV and wall mount in the middle of the night.

When I saw the TV installed I was upset and sad. We had discussed putting the TV up together for many reasons (placement mostly with regards to destructive children and height location). When I saw it the first thing I thought was telling him this am we have to redo it because of the location. After being up all night I feel that would not be the nice thing to say and instead want help with POJA. The TV mount is already up and now I have thought of two things to recommend: redoing it so children cannot get to TV, or leaving it and if children ruin TV then we just won't have a TV. I guess we could also pay a person to redo it but that would make me about 10x more upset.

I'm very emotional about this, probably too much so, mostly because of the lousy evening last night, no sleep because of this, and just thinking of all the things this represents: DH not doing this with me as we discussed, the time involved in a project just for himself (I didn't really want another TV but compromised on it), neglect of so many other projects that need attention in our house with priority to this, as well as him not spending time with me instead last night.

I feel like this needs to be addressed. I have had very little luck with POJA since I discovered this website. When I try it, I usually get agreement but then no follow through or DH forgets or he just blindly agrees with me (IMO). I think this is mostly due to my past tendency to just demand things. So I want to change and would appreciate some guidance.

I apologize if this seems to be a very minor issue on this forum. FWIW, we've been married 11 years. I ordered Fall in Love/Stay in Love and plan on asking DH to read it with me for my Christmas gift.


You have to make consistent complaints if you want them to be acted upon! He responded well to your first complaint (said OK) so I don't understand why you didnt trust him to do the same a second time.

If you don't raise it, you are going to have a daily reminder of marital thoughtlessness hanging off the wall, creating a mire of resentment your husband does not really deserve, and has no idea is happening. That's what conflict avoidance does.

Learn to tackle conflicts cheerfully and quickly. Expect to have numerous conflicts a day - but deal with each efficiently and to the benefit of you both.
Don't expect your husband to be a mindreader. Why did you tackle the conflict so well the first time and then stop?

Originally Posted By: Improve
I have had very little luck with POJA since I discovered this website. When I try it, I usually get agreement but then no follow through or DH forgets or he just blindly agrees with me (IMO). I think this is mostly due to my past tendency to just demand things.


Yes, it's created a habit where he just tries his best to meet his own requirements independently and avoid punishment from you with meaningless appeasement.

I'd clean up your side first. Make sure there is no more punishment and make sure all your actions take him into account. If he seems less than keen, and is blindly agreeing then don't do it. Say "I can tell you aren't happy so I don't feel like doing it until we can find a better way". Take responsibility when you see he is unhappy.

Once his requirements are considered, he will be less likely to force them through without agreement. If he isn't punished for disagreeing, he will start being more vocal.

It will take patience to break old habits.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Improve.

Lots to discuss. One small thing I'd recommend is how you ask him to enter into POJA.

Quote:
"Would it be okay with you if you ask before coming home about stopping somewhere in case something's going one and I need you here?".


This wasn't poorly worded but you seem to want to disguise this around what he would want. Your job is to inform him what you'd like. It's ok to ask for what you want.

We were taught to start our complaints without actually complaining. Using positives instead of negatives.

I would love it if .

I would love it if you needed to go somewhere after work if you would give me a call and discuss it with me..

Ask for what you want. Dont ask him if its OK with him. Tell him directly what youd like but do so respectfully.


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Here's an excellent show on POJA. Tell us what you think.

Radio Clip on POJA
Segment #2
Segment #3


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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It's been a while since I last posted. I wish I had been more persistent in learning about Marriage Builders during that time, though I do read quite a bit on the site.

I have a new problem that I wanted advice on. I found out my DH has spanked DS. DH has known I am never okay with that and had agreed (when DS was young) that he would not spank. This has happened on two occasions and I found out from DS and asked DH. DH stated it was because of safety reasons and DS would not listen. DS states once was where safety could not have been in question (in a parked car). DH also did not notify me of these instances and I have a lot of concerns with openness and honesty, finding out from my DS instead.

I admit DH and I have a lot of work to do on our marriage. I know I do a lot of wrong things (such as demands, AO in response to AO). But to me, spanking is crossing a line I can't accept. How do I address this with DH? I don't want to demand anger management but I feel like I need assurance that this won't happen again. In the past when I've tried POJA I frequently get either agreement from DH (with no follow through or intentional opposite actions), or no conversation to find alternatives, etc. How can we resolve such an emotional thing without demands? The worst is that I feel that even if DH says it won't happen again, I'm not sure I would believe him.

That being said, I'm going to go listen to the POJA clips recommended. I'm also going to continue reading the Love Busters book.

ETA -- I'm also going to reread my thread and advice from before.

Last edited by Improve; 06/04/15 07:40 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Improve
II admit DH and I have a lot of work to do on our marriage. I know I do a lot of wrong things (such as demands, AO in response to AO). But to me, spanking is crossing a line I can't accept. How do I address this with DH? I don't want to demand anger management but I feel like I need assurance that this won't happen again. In the past when I've tried POJA I frequently get either agreement from DH (with no follow through or intentional opposite actions), or no conversation to find alternatives, etc. How can we resolve such an emotional thing without demands? The worst is that I feel that even if DH says it won't happen again, I'm not sure I would believe him.


Improve, the biggest problems in your marriage is your husbands independent behavior and the lack of negotiation skills in your marriage. It sounds like your husband is making reluctant agreements which is also not good for your marriage.

This program works as a whole, not piecemeal, though, so you will need to implement the entire program in order to effect any meaningful changes. Since you have been unable to implement this program on your own, you should probably consider getting professional help. Have you considered signing up for the Marriage Builders program? In program #3, they assign you a MB coach who takes you both through the program for 12 months. It is a great program that many of us have used with success.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane

Improve, the biggest problems in your marriage is your husbands independent behavior and the lack of negotiation skills in your marriage. It sounds like your husband is making reluctant agreements which is also not good for your marriage.

This program works as a whole, not piecemeal, though, so you will need to implement the entire program in order to effect any meaningful changes. Since you have been unable to implement this program on your own, you should probably consider getting professional help. Have you considered signing up for the Marriage Builders program? In program #3, they assign you a MB coach who takes you both through the program for 12 months. It is a great program that many of us have used with success.


I agree about DH's IB and our POJA. I fear he reluctantly agrees with me because he thinks he has no choices. I try now to be polite in requests and I honestly feel he can say no to what I'm asking and try to really know if he's okay with a request. But I used to be in the habit of just saying "please do X for me" or demanding instead of really POJA so I don't think he thinks he has a choice.

I feel I haven't really implemented MB program. I have considered the counselling just because I don't push for follow through and we've got a lot on our plates. Having guidance would be nice to not have to take on the burden myself. DH has read the Fall in love book at my request and I believe he is willing to try. He has shown much more thoughtfulness and concern for my complaints after reading it and tries to show his love for me daily.

I just feel scared as this behavior is so dramatic for me and I'm so emotional regarding it and I truly feel that I have to request some way to fix this immediately. I'm considering offering to DH to never have to be alone with DS so I can ensure discipline as DS obeys me. I tend to ask DH to take DS out to get exercise when I'm sick or can't go with them.

That being said, I know finding an agreement with POJA is easier when a marriage is doing well and this solution would not solve future problems.

Last edited by Improve; 06/04/15 08:40 AM.

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane

Thanks for the link. I appreciate it.


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Originally Posted By: Improve

I just feel scared as this behavior is so dramatic for me and I'm so emotional regarding it and I truly feel that I have to request some way to fix this immediately.


You can't do a quick fix. If he is hurting your son, you need to separate.

If he is just smacking the bottom of a naughty child, then you need to negotiate. There are lots of ways to punish a small child that do not involve smacking but it is pretty harmless if it does not hurt. The main damage is that the child sees the smacking parent having a temper tantrum and thinks that this is acceptable behavior. That is what you need to gently make DH understand.

Sit down together and negotiate a different punishment. Do not allow your emotions about this prevent you from thinking clearly.


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I'm back. I asked my DH to post (which he did, he's SadintheSouth). I wanted to post also. Two months ago, I found out he has taken out $200,000 of loans behind my back, signed away his life insurance, and a bunch of lies. I thought he was working 70 hours a week for the last decade, but has been having side business schemes that have taken a lot of time, and money, away from us. The marriage is a wreck and I'm trying to not be emotionally reactive. I've found out he has been lying to me, probably since we started dating, or he has at least not been honest, about every aspect of our lives. He even talks poorly about me behind my back (and lies about me to others). I tried to implement SAA strategies when I found out two months ago, and he promised me a then he is done with the businesses. He promised he would do marriage builders with me and fulfill my requests to help me feel safe (not lie, not contact the businesses, not leave work without letting me know, etc). This week he wrote the businesses a letter in front of me, but then emailed and called them behind my back and I found out that he has still been contacting them and breaking his promises for the last two months. He is unable to be honest or open about anything. Even a simple request: I asked him to let me know when he was done with the laundry and he lied and said I was busy so he didn't want to disturb me, then said he forgot (after I grilled him for the actual truth). I know how tenuous my marriage is at the moment, and I told him that I cannot coach him to do the right thing, and I cannot change him. I also said I am emotionally unable to do this anymore and I need to protect myself, so he needs to be self-motivated to do everything to save this marriage, including seeking help from the forum and/or Dr. Harley. We bought the online course a long time ago, but I cannot work through it with him. We did EN and LB questionnaires, and I think he read the books (he says he did). When I think about what kind of future I will have, needing to verify every word out of his mouth, I get quite discouraged. Is it possible to turn someone who is a chronic liar into an honest person?


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I've been reading cases in Dr Harley's private forum, looking at those where the husband seems never to have bought into the marriage, and where the wife has spent years trying to motivate him.

POJA, and extraordinary care, are at the heart of a successful marriage. Dr Harley isn't hopeful when the husband simply never adopts those behaviours.

No, you can't turn a liar into an honest person. Your husband can turn himself into one, but I see not evidence whatsoever that he is determined to change.


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Improve,

I notice that you have been posting here for a long time, but that you tend not to keep your thread active. You get some advice, and you might not reply for a couple of years, by which time there is a new problem and the general situation is even worse. Also, you've been trying to get your husband on board with working on a much better marriage, but he does not seem to have given you much response. Is it possible that the marriage is quite satisfying for him, and that he is not too bothered by the many things have made you miserable?

I don't think you should go on trying to carry your extremely heavy husband. Dr Harley does not believe a wife should be doing this. I urge you to contact Joyce Harley so she can put you in direct contact with Dr Harley. They could discuss your last post with you in complete privacy.

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the broadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Joyce can also be reached in the mornings on 651-429-6729.


Please call or write to Joyce today. I can't tell you how much your post has disturbed me.


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SugarCane,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. We were on the radio program a couple of weeks ago, and we have set up an appointment with Steve Harley for counseling next week. I'm hesitant now to post in the forums as I'm unsure of the usefulness when my husband has access too. I think he might read advice to me, and apply it to get on my good side, etc. I also have severe doubts now if he comprehends even what a marriage is, now that I know what has been going on for so long. I am hopeful that counseling with Marriage Builders can shed some light into this situation, and if anyone could help, I believe they can. I have not posted regularly in the past as I have been pacified as situations resolve, without any true resolution.


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Originally Posted by Improve
SugarCane,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. We were on the radio program a couple of weeks ago, and we have set up an appointment with Steve Harley for counseling next week. I'm hesitant now to post in the forums as I'm unsure of the usefulness when my husband has access too. I think he might read advice to me, and apply it to get on my good side, etc. I also have severe doubts now if he comprehends even what a marriage is, now that I know what has been going on for so long. I am hopeful that counseling with Marriage Builders can shed some light into this situation, and if anyone could help, I believe they can. I have not posted regularly in the past as I have been pacified as situations resolve, without any true resolution.
Thank you for coming back to update us. I wondered often what had happened to you as I was really concerned about the situation.

Could you tell us what date you were on the radio show?


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Originally Posted by Improve
I'm hesitant now to post in the forums as I'm unsure of the usefulness when my husband has access too. I think he might read advice to me, and apply it to get on my good side, etc. I also have severe doubts now if he comprehends even what a marriage is, now that I know what has been going on for so long.
Your husband did the bare minimum that you asked him to do by posting here. You said "post on MB" so he posted on MB. He wasn't particularly truthful or forthcoming. He did not respond to the advice, nor show in any way that he was trying to learn how to have a better marriage. I'm intrigued to know how he responded on the radio show and what he has been doing since.

He could keep you in hope for a long time, just by agreeing to talk to Dr Harley and then agreeing to counselling. He could sit through a counselling meeting every week, sounding very sorry and taking a beating. None of that is the same thing as taking action.


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Originally Posted by Improve
We were on the radio program a couple of weeks ago
When were you on the show?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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