This is adapted from a post I made over on the Divorce Busting forum today, so if there are any strange sounding references I apologize. I've tried to "MB"-ize it, but may have missed a couple of things:<P>Anyone that has any thoughts on this question.... (I'll try to make this as short as possible - those who are familiar with my story can skip most of the beginning of this post).<P>My husband and I have been separated for nearly a year (just a week or so shy of a year). I "discovered" his affair in mid-September of last year. Sometime after he moved into his own place, she moved in with him and they have been living together, near as I can figure, since about January or February of last year.<P>I have done well, I think, considering how devastating this all has been. My threads abound both here and on the Divorce Busting<BR>forum. Over the summer, we spent a lot of time together - I had lots of vacation time to take and took a day or here and there. I learned to golf and we went golfing about once every week or two, or rode his motorcycle and visited friends from happier times.<P>A mutual friend of ours had come to town for a visit during the month of July and briefly spoke with my husband at his job (pizza shop) when they went there for dinner. I spoke with this friend a couple of days later, also briefly and by telephone, and when he asked me how I was doing, I told him ok, but not as well as I'd hoped. He responded, "Wellll, I don't think you'll have to wait much longer." Puzzled, and afraid to believe what I thought he meant, I just said, "Oh, yeah?" He said, "Yeah ... I talked to (H) the other night - and I don't think it'll be much longer." I dropped it there, probably a mistake, but he was with his family and I didn't want to dominate the conversation with my problems (unfortunately, now he doesn't remember what it was that my husband said). Not two days later, a friend of mine told me she'd talked to someone who knew my husband well, and that he'd said that my husband was pretty miserable. This person also said that if my husband wanted out of the relationship he was going to have a very difficult time because the creature he is with is extremely vicious. I may have allowed this information to affect my interaction with my husband way too much, but it really was exciting news to me.<P>Toward the end of the summer, due to the field in which I work (college support staff), I couldn't take anymore week days off. He stopped by for lunch a time or two, but became more and more distant. I am taking a class, and working part time and, due to that, have not been spending much time "visiting" him at work like I had been. About that time, also, the slug changed jobs (yet again - she hasn't been able to hold a decent one for any real amount of time). She is now working back in the restaurant business and undoubtedly has essentially the same schedule as my husband, possibly another reason he has been less willing to do things with me.<P>Next weekend, they leave for vacation together. They are going to Orlando FL and this news has been very painful for me. It was where we went on our honeymoon and on many of our best vacations together, and I have always considered it like "our" place ... I can only hope that he will remember the good times we've had there and think of me while he is with her.<P>My dilemma is this: I have been in Plan A this entire time, but don't seem to be making much progress anymore with that. I know I need to do something different, but don't know exactly which direction to go with it. I've tried being less available, but haven't succeeded in not contacting him for more than a week and a half at a time. When I haven't contacted him, he doesn't seem to miss me much, but perhaps I haven't gone long enough?<P>I am in a turmoil over what I should do ... my husband seems to have settled in better with the slug at this point (although recently, since he's gotten a computer and gotten online, there have been some problems that have come up - I've been posting them under the "I Need Support" forum over at the DB site - let me know if you want URL's). But more importantly, he seems to have settled into having her to meet some of his needs (obviously sexual, also recreational), and having me meet others (need for intelligent conversation is a biggie - she's truly incapable). Unfortunately, the needs I meet are likely needs that ANY friend with a brain could meet.<P>Anyway - you can see I am confused about which direction to go in. Do I continue with the "friend" role - knowing it is extremely annoying to the slug (although she believes that ALL contact is initiated by me, and that he has only done things with me because he "feels sorry for me"). Do I "disappear" from his life without explanation? Do I write a Plan B letter, and then go into a complete "no contact" mode?<P>I am afraid that he will cut off his nose to spite his face if I send a letter as described above. I am also afraid that if I don't explain why I am not "there" for him anymore, he will simply believe that I no longer love him and that any feelings he still has for me will die due to stubborn refusal to communicate them to me.<P>I know that if I continue in this way, I will be simply maintaining the status quo and never have a chance for movement in any direction.<P>Let's face it, I'm afraid no matter what! <P>Thanks for listening - any responses are welcome (except for "divorce him and move on" )<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>No, I'm not a Marriage Counselor,<BR>But I did sleep at a <BR>Holiday Inn Express last night...<BR>

Hi Terri, I wish I could crystal-ball this for you. Despite the differences in our situations, your fears are very similar to mine. If I cut off contact, which I've tried with little success (and by God the week and a half you've gone without contacting seems miraculous to me), what if he takes it as "punishment"? and that I'm "gone".<P>He's already encouraging me to find someone else and because he "can't blame" me. Ugh. I told him I feel hurt when he says that. I'm his WIFE!<P>When I give my H more time to himself, he goes into party mode--out all night doing...whatever...I hate that. I also hate not seeing him. I also hate seeing him and being disappointed.<P>Oh, enough about me...<P>You've already done so much of what I would advise--you're busy, you have activities. My gut feeling is that it can't hurt your situation for your H to feel like maybe you don't have time for him? This all gets to feeling like playing some deadly serious game where you make the right moves you get your spouse back. I don't like that feeling either.<P>Whatever you do, keep me posted, my email is still the same...<BR><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Do not get tired of doing what is right, for after awhile you will reap a harvest of blessings if you do not get discouraged and give up. (Gal 6:9)<P>

Hi Terri. You sound like a VERY strong person. I don't think I could have been as patient as you. My advice, for what it's worth, is to most certainly start w/ Plan B. You can't force him to come back. But why are you torturing yourself? Sounds like you have become very involved in other activities which is great. What he's doing to you is so wrong. He should not be able to have his cake and eat it too!<P>I'm not advising to be mean but simply to tell him that you've had enough of this situation and if he chooses to be w/ her ... the he can't have you too. <P>It seems like he's had a pretty comfortable ride so far ... has OW and probably knows he has you too. <P>Stay strong. <P>

Hi Terri, <P>Home this evening and saw your post and could not resist answering. As far as time tables we are both in the same boat...actually I think we actually came here at the same time...and I to was in a plan a mode for along time. Many things have happened in the past few months that would have could have and should have brought us together but it was not to be....he came back in may to try and reconcile, unbeknonst to me as I put my heart into it he did not entirely and the slug was still lurking. By July he had moved out again at my request because I could no longer take the emotional abuse. Also in July I found out I was losig my job due to consolidation....Dec 10 will be last day....then comes September and Hurricane Floyd....hit us and wiped out house....he totally disconnected. I was left to take care of what was left. Just about that time and not a moment to soon I was beginning to feel myself lose it. I gave all I could and could give no more....he was still involved with her and in contact with me....need to talk, etc. I could not take it anymore. I finally decided that I had to disconnect for my own sanity, peace of mind and I was really making his life far to easy. I am now in therapy once a week and Have decided that I have to lay ground rules....as long as he is continuing this affair I am off limits...except on as needed basis for my daughter. I have gotten bolder...when he thought he would hang around I politely ask him to leave. When he calls I request that he get to the point answer directly and end conversation. This has been terribly hard to do. I to felt that I would lose all if I did not give in to this emotional stupidity. But the reality is what is it exactly that I have. I have been separated now for over a year and I know for me I have to move forward...with or without him. Not what I want but more what I need. I was enabling his behavior and had to stop. By enabling his behavior he never had to make a decision....I was always right where he left me. I have also decided that I will pick a date (possibly May 1...) and if he has not made up his mind I will file for a divorce...he will be told this up front so it will be his choice. I do not want a divorce but I no longer can live in limbo either. So basically what I have done is Plan B with an ending. In my heart I hope that reconciliation is in the cards but can not do it by myself. I think since you are asking the question you may be in the same place. It is not easy, I can atest to that but for my own well being it had to be done. You/I are moving on in your life in many ways and neither of our husbands have been forced to do without us...you seem like a very intelligent, loving and caring person...and I know that you feel some of the break up was your fault...but does it really mean that you have to hang on a thread forever. My thread broke and I found a stregnth I did not know I had...only you can know in your heart what it will take but look into yourself and ask yourself what you need. That is really what is important here....YOU!!!! and make your decision whatever it may be from there...<P>I wish you well.....<P>Kathy

Kathy - I hear you.<P>And I'm sorry that things have been so difficult for you. I guess it is easier when there are no children involved, but "disconnecting" is so very hard to do.<P>I'll keep you all posted.<P>terri<BR>not feeling very funny at the moment.

Hi, Terri. My husband is sitting here and telling me what he thinks about your situation. <P>First of all, you are to be admired for what you've done for this marriage. I was thinking that ever since reading your first post. I get the feeling that you don't want to get the true rundown of what others want to say (as in the other don't tell me if you want to suggest "divorcing your h" thread.)<P>It's not that simple. But can I be honest? Your h has been away so long, and his stupid little g/f having an influence over him for too long, it has to be taken into account. Your H has to be held accountable for his own actions. We can only give advice by putting ourselves in your position. Are you truly happy where you are now? Do you want him (your H) to change, or are you comfortable where you are at the moment? If you are happy where you are, keep on doing what you are.<P>If you're not happy, make a change. Tell him that you will not accept him with the other woman and that you will not be a partner to this. Distance yourself from him until he can come back. <P>If he cannot and will not, why stay with him? Have a non-committed relationship where both of you are good friends.

Um ... I do want to hear what others truly have to say - but this is still Marriage Builders and divorce is not an option for me. I have no problem with being told that Plan B is my best option - but I DO have a problem with being told to give it up and divorce him. That's not working toward saving my marriage. And, regardless of what he's done, I do still love him and I did promise to do so in sickness and health, for better or worse until death us do part. I can't make him fulfill his promise to me, but I CAN fulfill mine to him.<P>Thank you for your input. It is appreciated.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>No, I'm not a Marriage Counselor,<BR>But I did sleep at a <BR>Holiday Inn Express last night...<P>

Terri,<P>I'm trying to save my own marriage, so my advice would never follow not being beneficial to anothers. I guess I should not have answered. I gave my honest opinion, and that of my husband, who has been through the gamut. Just trying to help

Connor, I didn't object to your advice, but to the statement that I didn't want to hear what others truly thought.<P>I've seen a lot of support for people here on the forum and I've gotten a lot over the year plus that I've been here. But somehow, every time I ask what *I* should *do* when I am confused, somebody pops up with the "divorce the b**t**d" cry. I just didn't want to hear it again.<P>Again thanks for your input.<P>terri

Terri:<P>I've been around almost as long as you have, we have taken somewhat divergent paths and haven't always agreed. Nevertheless, I admire your strength and commitment and have followed your story. My comments to you are simple and I hope I can help you. Here goes.<P>I believe that the relationship of importance is the one between your husband and the slug, not the one between you and him. Until and unless that relationship comes to an end, you will not have an opportunity to do much about your marriage, regardless of the approach you use. Of course, you don't want to lovebust and do damage, but I don't believe you can do much good. I also believe there is nothing you can do to end your husband's relationship with the slug. Either he'll do it or not. Totally his choice (or hers).<P>So, with that in mind, I think you should use whatever approach you are most comfortable with FOR YOUR OWN PEACE OF MIND. Based on how you've handled this so far, I think you like to see him often, do things with him, and give him things, so I think you should keep doing it FOR YOU. Just adjust your expectations (who am I kidding, like you haven't already learned patience through this process). But I also think you should actively focus on building a separate life for yourself that doesn't include him, and may even include other men. You have to think of yourself first.<P>Shifting gears a little, I'm a little less optimistic based on the descriptions you've given of your husband's passivity through this separation (and before?). I could be totally off base, but it seems that he's under the "control" of whomever he's with, with little fight in him in any direction. Sounds to me like he's not happy with anything and won't commit to anything. Even worse, it's like he doesn't even care about anything. I think you should examine your time together and see if that trait existed before the break-up. If it's part of his basic personality then your problems are bigger, but if it's a change, I think it's likely depression and needs to be treated.<P>So, I'm advising you to find the least stressful way for you to wait the maximum amount of time, build your own life, and pray the affair dies of its own weight. Hang in there and continue to be tough.

Terri<P>You obviously don't want a divorce, but that does not mean you shouldn't go to plan B. <P>I basically agree with hte other posters. By going to plan B the OW will also put pressure on your H to make a decision, one way or the other. I believe there is another reason Harley recommends 6 months of plan A while the affair is ongoing and that is because the longer the affair goes on then the more time the OP can continue the fantasy and deposit loveunits. Once you are in plan B the pressure will be on her to fill all his needs. Yes there is a risk that you may lose him altogether but how long will you be able to tolerate limboland?<P>Sometimes I think when the H is the betrayer he is not looking for commitment just a totally self-indulgent happy life that may include the W and the OW.

Thank you!<P>Distressed, you wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I believe that the relationship of importance is the one between your husband and the slug, not the one between you and him. Until and unless that relationship comes to an end, you will not have an opportunity to do much about your marriage, regardless of the approach you use.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I can't tell you how much this meant to me to read this! It is, for me, a uniquely new slant on the entire situation. I have done <B>all I can do</B> to improve our relationship and the ball is in his court.<P>Yes, I enjoy being with him, but let me share with you something small that happened last night. I was talking with him on the phone. The conversation was very nice in the beginning - I talked to him about my phone bill and he asked me about work, we talked about our internet service provider and access numbers. Then I asked him if he would do me a favor and come over and help me get the air conditioners out of the windows and put away. He said he'd try. I asked if he could do it before he went away (11/13) and he said he didn't think so. Then he said, "I can't do it at night, y'know." I asked if he did it after he came back from vacation could he do it at night then. He said no. I asked why, but he didn't really answer. Then he said he might be able to do it Thursday night. I realized that he was arranging things to suit her, but wouldn't admit it [NOTE: I imagine that she was very unhappy to find me at the pizza place on Wednesday night, and not at all happy when he asked me to go back into the kitchen with him - where he proceeded to say "I just wanted to let you know I'm leaving now." I kissed him good night and with a wicked grin asked him if he thought it was safe for me to go out there (she was at the counter). He answered, "Just don't say anything to her."] He then asked me if I was going to stop by Sunday (I had mentioned doing so earlier in the conversation) and I said probably, why, do you not want me to? He said "If you're going to stop by, just ... just stop by." I have no idea WHAT this meant. Finally I said to him something like, "It hurts me lately that I feel like anytime I talk to you I'm bothering you" he simply chuckled nervously and said, "I have to go" I told him I love him and we hung up.<P>I realized exactly what you point out in your response to me - she is controlling everything. And he is letting her. This is NOT the same man I was married to. I have maintained all along that he is depressed, but he WON'T get treatment because 1) he won't listen to me and 2) he doesn't "believe" in depression. The man I know him to be wanted to BE something in life. He was so proud that he never graduated from high school, and was a notoriously bad student back then, but that his college gpa was higher than mine. He wanted to learn a new skill - a new career - had been looking at aerospace engineering! He came up against a brick wall: math. He tried several times and eventually gave up. Personally, I KNOW he has the ability to do it - he just needs better or different teaching to get there. And then he tried business - accounting wasn't working for him, either and he bugged me every day - and I was in a bad place at the time ... I was VERY unsupportive - discouraging, even. He gave up. And that's about the same time as the slug came into the picture. It's also the time when his friends felt he began his own bout of depression. That was almost 4 years ago.<P>So, now... for myself, Plan B could work. Or going on as I have been. Or ... maybe even dating. I don't know. I have been getting pressure from friends and other people I know to give up - but I'm not THERE yet. If I go to Plan B, it is not so much because I can't continue as I am. It is more because I think he may need to know what it's REALLY like to be without me. It HURTS to see that he's given up on everything he's ever dreamed of, and I wish he would get help. But I can't force him to do anything.<P>It should be so simple: We are married and we now know what it is we need to do to fix our marriage and be happy together (or I do, at least) so we should give it our best shot and make it work. <P>So why isn't it? ....<P>Thanks for all the replies ... I am taking every single one of them to heart.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<BR>

Terri:<P>Playing back what you wrote, it looks like a self-esteem issue. He picked an OW that is obviously far inferior to him (and you), so he can feel important (even if he does let her boss him around, he knows inside that he's the smart one). So, given this, what kind of 180's can YOU DO to build up his self-esteem? He's probably clear now how important he is to you and how much you love him, but how can you show him that you believe in him?<P>This is totally off the wall, but if the diagnosis of the underlying causes is close, imagine the psychological turmoil he would be in if she broke it off. He picked someone deliberately inferior to be "safe", unjudged, superior, etc. What does it do to his already fragile ego if she packs? Watch him closely.<P>You are doing night coursework. Any chance of getting him to join you in something similar, not something fun, but something that could make him feel a sense of accomplishment and build his self-worth? Get him to take some risks with his life? Feel energized about something?<P>It's in many books, but one of the precepts to being able to love others is to be comfortable with yourself. My guess is he needs to reach that level first, before he can really give to anyone (and that includes the slug). If I were to guess about it, he's probably "there" in that relationship, but not much more emotionally connected than with you.<P>Best of luck.

Distressed, one of the things we talked about recently was my belief that if he could get the right math *background*, he could learn the higher maths much more easily. I have been trying to encourage him to go back to school since last fall, but he has not done so as yet. I even pointed out last spring that he has only one full time semester left to complete an associate degree and that I would certainly be willing to pick up the financial slack if he wanted to move back and finish school.<P>Last February and again in April, we took a golf class together. It led into a wonderful summer of golf outings often initiated by him. Golf and pool (billiards) are two things we share - we have always enjoyed playing pool together, and golf is new to me this past year.<P>I was talking with another friend just now and I realized something - I think when I heard the news that he was unhappy living with her this past summer, I began to focus less on me and more on us. I think now that was a mistake to do, because, as you pointed out, "us" cannot go anywhere until "they" are no longer... I don't believe I did it consciously, but I do realize I did it.<P>I think I will continue to encourage him to attempt the math somehow - maybe online or I can give him the algebra and geometry software I had purchased last spring. And I will continue to offer him support and encouragement to be whatever he can be. I believe that him growing and succeeding is a threat to her, as she truly is incapable of that. I know it was a threat to me when he talked of going to Daytona FL to college there... But that wasn't because I didn't want him to grow - it was because I was afraid to leave my roots and go with him - I was petrified of anything new - part of my depression.<P>I do wish I could convince him to see the doctor about depression. But I know he won't - he's already told me many times this past year that he doesn't believe in psychology, or counselling, and he's way too macho to admit he might be suffering from depression...<P>Thank you for your thoughts. I am at a difficult place right now - I feel like I'm walking the tightrope blindfolded and dizzy! I think I'd much rather be back on the roller coaster!<P>Keep the ideas coming! You are making me think out of my normal framework and that is helping me a lot!<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<BR>

My counselor (male) told me that men don't like to admit they need help. This goes for counseling and for taking anti-dep. meds. My H takes them for maybe 3 weeks, feels better and stops. 2 weeks later, he can't cope with anything, doesn't remember ever feeling better and thinks the meds were a waste of time.<P>As for superior/inferior another man pointed that out to me lately. I love owning a used book store, I only work 30 hours a week so I can be with the kids most days before and after school. I pursued my dream of writing--not published, but I know I can write and will when my concentration comes back (oh, please, please, please). I'd gone from the shy, pretty girl he married who needed lots of support to a confidant, beautiful woman who has handled him being gone for 7 months for Desert Storm and is also handling all these crappy separations. I'm not breaking ( too much or too often), but he is. The OW is "needy". Phew. She's in at least her 3rd other relationship since she's been involved with my H--they've broken it off 3 times, she gets a man immediately. She cannot be without a man. She gives me the ick. Why would this be more appealing than me, the woman who has been faithful & constant throughout this whole thing?<P>Remember, you didn't cause it, you can't control it, and you can't cure it...he has to make the change. And want to make the change.<P>I'm thinking about dating. But I know it'll just make things more complicated.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Do not get tired of doing what is right, for after awhile you will reap a harvest of blessings if you do not get discouraged and give up. (Gal 6:9)<P>

Terri, You and I have alot in common one of the differences is that I don't ever see my H. He was just started to se a counselor for his depression when he left and as far as I know he isn't seeing any one now. From what I have heard from friends is that he is ashamed to talk to them when he is with her. So far they have only seen him with the two are together. I know what Distressed is saying is the truth you and I can't do anything about our marriage as long as they are together, but I am having trouble going into plan b. (In plan A I still send him notes and things but no response.) It almost seems like giving up. I guess that is why I am going through such a bad time trying to take that step. Well, I didn't really mean to take this over. I jus want you to know that I do know what you are going through and if you need someon who knows to talk to Just holler.<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

It's really the same old story. Not only can't we do anything to end their affairs and work on the marriage, we also can't do anything to get them to seek help. Unfortunately, there really isn't anything we can do to get our husbands to go for counseling or take antidepressants.<P>Telling them they are depressed is really disrespectful, unfortunately. I discussed this exact subject with Steve Harley some months back, after harping on it myself. To make it worse, I then went through the littany of books I read on the topic and had very specific advise. I was "educating" him, also very disrespectful per Steve. The end result was that whatever I suggested, the opposite was done. Meanwhile, 14 months of separation have passed and my husband hasn't read a book, seen a counselor, talked to a friend, bonded with our baby, or made any significant decisions himself. After months of leaving him alone, I gave him a post-it marked copy of After the Affair to read on Tuesday, along with a bottle of champagne to celebrate his finishing a big project. I don't know if he'll read it, but I didn't get the outright rejection that I have seen before.<P>That's the dilemma with these guys. We can't help them and they won't help themselves. They drift along in unhappy, indecision land forever. All we can do is offer unpressured support and encouragement. The rest is up to them. And unfortunately, if they can't find the strength and confidence to take control of their lives, we won't be back together with them. To be honest, I don't think we want them back like this anyway.<P>My problem has been accepting that there really isn't anything I can do about this. In all other areas of my life, I have taken an active approach to fixing problems. I have done the same here. Reading everything, trying everything, looking for what does and doesn't work. What do I have? A husband who really enjoys spending time with us, tells me I've fixed all the issues and how great that is, has an OW he still runs to, and says he's going to divorce me (we'll see, saying this for three months now) because "in the long run, things will get bad again". Finally, I accept this isn't about me, but about him and there's nothing further I can do about it.<P>So do what you can to find your peace and your patience, and leave him to his own decisions. Hopefully he'll make the right ones in time.

Hi Terri,<BR> I admire you since you sound like a very strong and caring person ...you are asking for opinions and I would like to give mine. I think you should go to a strict Plan B...write the letter and cut off all contact....make the slug meet all of his needs...he knew in the past you would be there for him and did not have to end the other relationship...this is my very very humble opinion. Even Dr. Harley says in one of his books don't let them have it both ways.. you have done a great job of Plan A , send him the letter, tell him you love him but there will be no relationship till she's out of the picture. Btw, I did Plan B and it worked for me, Plan A allowed my H to sit the fence and have it all.....Lu

Thanks all!<P>A quick post and then I truly must get some sleep!<P>I came to an important realization which helped me come to a decision for the time being. As much as I've thought I've been working on me - I really haven't been. All the things I've done, I've done with HIM as the focus - not ME. I learned to golf - but never golfed with OTHER people - only him. And, I had someone I could have called and gone golfing with - a woman from where I work. AND, HE KNEW this, because I'd told him about her. How can he believe I've changed and have a real life for myself if I really don't have one? Another thing that helped me with this realization was this: I saw that our continuing ed department has a ski program offered in January. My first thought was, "Gee, this could be a way to get to spend time with H!" NO NO NO NO NO!!!! The thought should and MUST be, "What a great deal for learning to ski! I've been wanting to learn - what better way than to go with a small group for 6 weeks of lessons and skiing!" My husband shouldn't enter into my decisions about my activities at this point. If I let him know that I'm learning to ski and he says, "Great, we'll go together sometime" then fine. But I cannot decide to learn to ski because he MIGHT want to go skiing with me!<P>I need to start over again. I lost my focus and lost my forward momentum. Plan B may not be for all of us - I am planning to TRULY do things for ME. If it helps him to believe I can really change - GREAT. BUT - I have to make the changes for myself.<P>Thank you all for helping me come to this realization.<P>Also, I'd like to make a book recommendation: <I>How to Get Him Back From the Other Woman - If You Still Want Him</I> by Diane Baroni and Betty Kelly. It is currently out of print, but you might be able to find it in used bookstores or see if Amazon.com can find it for you. I found the book to be very helpful and it, too, contributed to my realization.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<BR>

Bringing this up closer to the top for comments. <P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<BR>