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Also have you read this?
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Trueheart's Letter

Thank you for taking the time and effort to read this letter. I am writing this in hopes that your BS has brought you here in order that you might understand you are not alone in your thoughts and feelings. It is intended to give you a measure of comfort and hope that you can feel safe as you come out the fog that has enveloped you so tightly over the past weeks, months, or years.

I do not know m any of you by name, nor do I know of all the details or circumstances surrounding your life, or your affair(s). What I do know is that we share two very important things in our lives and makes us somewhat connected as a WS. I am hoping that I can help you come back to the light, so that you can come back to the light that has, for so long, shielded you with that dense fog you may still be in.

The first thing that we share is the love of a person that totally, completely, and unconditionally stand by our side. Through thick and thin, for better or worse, in our darkest hours, we have someone that has always believed in us, and still does. They have put up with our lies, our anger, our accusations, and maybe in some cases verbal and/or physical abusiveness. They have watched us trash us the things they believed in more than anything in the world...our marriage, our vows, our trust and our love. In spite of it all, they see in us their hopes, their dreams, and their futures. They can't, nor do they want to, see themselves without us for the rest of their lives. They accept our imperfections and our infidelity as we have strayed from that which we know is wrong. They have continued to believe in us and want to help us right the ship and stay the course. They are willing to forgive us, grant us our mistakes, and come home to rebuild that life and make it better. They know they are not perfect, as well.

They know they have made mistakes. They need us to open up, talk to them and give them answers so that they can learn, heal, and help repair the damage. They will accept their responsibility in these things. Can you?

We, most of us, alsoe have children that look at us, and see only the love of a Mom or a Dad. They don't see us as imperfect, scared, or angry. They see us as a shelter, a safe haven where they can laugh, cry, hurt, be silly or serious, and tell us their fears or fantasies. We are their safety net when they fall. They look to us for answers in life, no matter how big or small the answers are. Our life changed, no matter much we didn't want it to when we helped create that life. We owe our children the best chance to learn from us. We owe them our unconditional, total, and complete love, so that they can start on the journey with as few bumps and bruises as possible. They look to you for truth in their lives. To deny them that chance, is a travesty.

You took an oath, in your heart and mind, to protect and defend and teach YOUR child, as soon as they were created. So, you see, you have people in your life that believe in you, love you, accept you, want you, need you, cherish you, and the list goes on and on.

I know for a fact, that many of you, when with the OP, badmouth your spouse. You tell the OP how they do all the right things, fill you up, make you feel alive, do all the things your spouse does not, or used to do. You tell this person they are everything you ever wanted. They arouse you, they make you happy...interesting how you told your spouse that at one time too. And, the truth is, if you were to search your heart, you are not letting them do that now. They want to, they beg you to let them try...you justify your A, by telling them "I just don't feel that for you anymore", "I don't know if I want to be married anymore", "I dont know what I want", and a myriad of other flimsy reasons and excuses to buy time to spend with the OP. You give justifications that are so superficial they can't hold water.

We even search our minds to think of everything that our spouse ever did, no matter how insignificant, how long ago it was, in order to make us feel better about cheating. We can find any reason to blame our spouse for US deciding and making a conscious choice to cheat and find a reason to say it is ok.

What we should be doing is finding every reason for our BS to forgive us. We should be finding every reason to stay together, to come home, to make it right, to be a family...loving and supportive, forgiving and trusting. And you know what? Those reasons are there...everyday...the smile, the laugh, the tears, the love....they are there each and everyday!! Just look!!!

The second thing we share is the fact that we are all weak!! I know full well the pain, anger, frustration, fear, embarrassment, passion, fun, laughter, love, fear, and all the rest of the wide range of emotions of having an A.

I know what is like to have that OP fill up your senses...so full and so fast you wonder how you ever made it without them. The sex is great, the passion is overwhelming, you can't wait to see them, touch them, hear them...all the while drifting further and further from your marriage...lost in the fog. NO matter how we justify it, that other person...is a cheater, as well. They know we are married and they choose to cheat with us. And in many cases, probably have before, and have told the other person they are with, all the same, exact things they tell us. "You are my soulmate" "you are the only one for me" etc etc. We have heard em all and said em all. We have been told they can make us happy "for the rest of our lives". WE have been so blinded by it all, that we give up family and friends we have had for years, in order for this OP to feel safe with us and convince them how we feel. We take all the energies that we don't use at home, and give them to someone "new". We spend money, time, and energy to build something with someone exciting, instead of spending that with someone that knows us and truly loves us.

You see, the truth is, that we, both members of the affair, are very good at one thing....telling each other exactly what we want to hear. We put together elaborate speeches, write poetry, find mushy cards, send the "perfect" gifts, say the right things...all for this other person. Both of us continue to hone our "cheating" skills to the point of perfection. What ever happened to doing that to your spouse, instead of leaving them at the side of the road with a flat tire? We have derailed their entire life and emotionally checked out...in order to make us feel better about the affair. That simply isn't right. We took years to build something. We may have taken several years to weaken the foundation of it. But in one simple night of lust, and that is what it is, lust, we tried to destroy it. If we truly "loved" this person, if we truly believed what we were doing is right, true, and good, there would be no indecision on our part. There would be no hesitancy at all.

The bottom line is that, you can trust the person you are cheating with less than you can trust yourself. It is a proven fact that only 25% of all affairs ever make it. Deep down in your heart, you still love your spouse, and you know it. You don't want to give up the excitement and passion you have found. The truth is that your marriage will never again go back to what it was. The blind faith in each other is gone....it is replaced with doubt and fear. The wonderful thing is that you now have a chance to "rediscover" your spouse, your marriage, and your family.

It is not as hard as you may think, but will take some dedication on your part. But the beauty of the whole thing is you will be stronger and more in love than you ever thought you could be. You create new memories, new routines, a new life. You re-commit, reinvest your time and energies in that which truly loves you.

The truth is most affairs end when the OP either gets what they thought they needed from you, and even more of them end when the OP finds another WS. Oddly enough, you weren't enough for them either. In the end you are left with no loving spouse, no children, no family, no friends.....and your OP that was so steadfastly dedicated to you is off romping with "the love of their life".

I know from whence I speak, my friends. I know of the pain, the sorrow, the hurt, the look in my childrens eyes when I left the house. I hear the sounds of my W crying, begging, pleading, and hurting. I now see what a fool I was.

I now spend everyday, more happy than I ever thought I could be. If the world were to end tomorrow, she would know I loved her as no other. No, she won't ever forget about the A, and along the way, there will be things that will trigger her mind, but, she has forgiven. You need to talk to your spouse to help them. YOU are the only one that can help them. They need you, much more now than ever before. You have to swallow that pride of yours, for them to heal. You have to open your life up to them, and hide nothing. You have to make it about them. The affair was making it about you, so now you owe it to them, no matter how embarrassed you are, no matter how much you don't wnat to talk about it, to make it about them. Their piece of mind, their feelings are all that matter.

They know, from being here, what they need to do in order to help meet your needs. It is now up to you, to learn what you need to do in order to meet theirs. And make no mistake about it, it will be hard work, but it is oh so worth it!! This person you married, is willing to work with you in order to show you the love you deserve!!

Are you willing to work to show them how much you truly love them??

By being here, at Marriage Builders, they have shown that they are willing to adopt the principles that it takes to put their marriage back together. They have pledged their love, and even their support, to your recovery, as well as theirs. They have accepted the crumbs you have offered them, while knowing full well you were at the buffet with the other person in your life.

You have one of the strongest, most committed, most wonderful, loving, and caring people in the world on your side. Don't expect them not be angry from time to time. Don't expect them to be perfect, let you off the hook, and not talk about it with you. They need and want to understand you and all the things surrounding what happened. It is part of the healing process.

What you can expect is love, honesty, and the rebuilding of your marriage.

They know what it takes to make things work now. They also know that they, as well as you, have to be stronger than ever before in their life, if this is going to work. That is why they are still here...they understand.

They even know, that you may backslide in the beginning, but are willing to deal with that, in order to preserve and protect that which they believe in ......YOU. I implore you, WS, burn off the fog. See the sand that is your foundation for the affair. There is no solid basis for this relationship..it is all smoke and mirrors that reflects this "love" you have found. Run, do not walk, back home and give your marriage all the energy, gifts, poems, cards, and love that you have given to the affair. The results are remarkable. But you have to be willing to be honest with yourself, first of all. You have to admit there is a problem, and you have to be willing to fix it, with your spouse, a counselor, whatever or whoever it takes to fix it. You have to be willing to want to be there in mind, body, and spirit. You will find a love more wonderful than anything you knew before.

I hope this helps, in some way, to show you what life can be after an affair. I know that I am blessed with the most wonderful person. I was given the opportunity to feel what life was like without her, and it was not what I wanted. I found the answers I sought...I found them both here, and in her arms. I can only hope, that in some small way, you find the same thing, and that I helped the fog to lift. If you ever wish to talk to someone who understands what we WS go through, then feel free to write *edit* There is a path back home. You need only choose it! Keep the faith!

*Out of our greatest fears, come our bravest deeds!*

Trueheart


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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You need to take the steps that are best for your M, and that are needed to heal it, even if she never gives you another chance.

You need a job that doesn't require travel.
You need to move close to where your family is.
You need to make changes in yourself and your lifestyle so that you're good husband material.
You need to continue with EP's and at least offer transparency.
You need to do all these things and more because it's right, not because you will gain something from it.

And yet you will gain. At the very least, you'll gain a character that lets you look at yourself in the mirror and no longer feel shame. While also giving yourself your only chance, if there is one, to possibly heal your marriage.

Whether your BW currently wants to see you or not, you need to be nearby. For the sake of your children, you also need to be a part of their lives even if you're completely shut out by BW.


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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Originally Posted by Neak
You need to take the steps that are best for your M, and that are needed to heal it, even if she never gives you another chance.

You need a job that doesn't require travel.
You need to move close to where your family is.
You need to make changes in yourself and your lifestyle so that you're good husband material.
You need to continue with EP's and at least offer transparency.
You need to do all these things and more because it's right, not because you will gain something from it.

And yet you will gain. At the very least, you'll gain a character that lets you look at yourself in the mirror and no longer feel shame. While also giving yourself your only chance, if there is one, to possibly heal your marriage.

Whether your BW currently wants to see you or not, you need to be nearby. For the sake of your children, you also need to be a part of their lives even if you're completely shut out by BW.
Neak is correct.

Also, Extraordinary Precautions-Revised from SAA


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Also have you read this?
Originally Posted by Pepperband
Trueheart's Letter
[...]
Thank you BrainHurts, I never came across it before...
Everything is so true and especially the analogy with the fog is so powerful...
Now that the fog is clearing I see all the damage I left behind and it kills me to face the reality of what I was 'able' to do, but I am also thankful this thick curtain is raising because now I can also see the direction I must take..


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The recovery plan in Surviving an Affair will result in a romantic, safe marriage if it is followed without deviation

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Originally Posted by mane
once we are in the middle of an AO, then probably nothing really works to divert the mind and relax..


Exactly. That's why you need to terminate the call, then just send her an affectionate message instead that you're here for her when she feels calmer.

Anger is an assault on the other person but it is also a burden for the angry person. It will just make her feel worse and I wouldn't enable this bad habit.

It's highly possible for her to break it - I went through the entire Dday and Plan A process without a single AO. This is a person who once threw a plate at a wall during an argument!

All she really wants is to know that you are there for her and are willing to make it up in any way necessary. She doesn't need to yell at you to get that, so I wouldn't allow thattechnique which is only making her miserable. I would nip any AO's in the bud by telling her to go rest, bid her farewell, hang up and follow up with an affectionate message.

When you say 'we' are in the middle of an AO, you are not responding with anger are you?! That would be most foolish!!!



What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by indiegirl
When you say 'we' are in the middle of an AO, you are not responding with anger are you?! That would be most foolish!!!
No... generally I keep calm as it is quite rare that I boil up to the point of taking my anger out.. but of course being the target of an AO is a bit unsettling, cause it is also rare that I make people angry at all...

And, thanks for the 'Anger Management' tips - will be useful for both of us




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Originally Posted by mane
Originally Posted by indiegirl
When you say 'we' are in the middle of an AO, you are not responding with anger are you?! That would be most foolish!!!
No... generally ALWAYS I keep calm as it is quite rare UNHEARD OF that I boil up to the point of taking my anger out..


A little tweaking for you there. Even the slightest hint of anger, one time, will withdraw love you don't have in the lovebank. So you cannot afford to do it, even 'generally' or 'rarely'.

Neither can she which is why I suggest you don't allow her to.

You can't afford to feel 'unsettled' either. You have to be as steady as a rock. Firmly contacting her to offer support and making deposits while confidently and surely avoiding withdrawals.

(Whispering - you don't MAKE her angry. Nobody does have the power to MAKE anyone do anything. We make ourselves angry. We are all in full control of our own actions. It's important you know this).

I hope you feel well today.



Last edited by indiegirl; 02/21/14 07:33 AM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Hi mane, how are you doing? How did your session with Steve Harley go? [I am assuming you meant Steve Harley]


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Hi mane, how are you doing? How did your session with Steve Harley go? [I am assuming you meant Steve Harley]
Yes, I managed to talk to Steve Harley last Friday.. he made me talk a lot about the A and about how have my wife and I been getting along these last few weeks and he already gave me some explanations and suggestions.. I was so impressed by his confidence and clarity.. I'm happy I called him. Next step is for my wife to talk with him (she agreed to give it a try!), then we'll see...

Also, I've been talking a lot yesterday with friends, family and with my boss (who is also a good friend of mine). Thankfully, I got a permission from my boss to fly home for some days.
Since my wife was against seeing me so far despite my offers, I had to break some rules and booked tickets and a room in a city near her place without asking or presenting my plan, with the idea in my mind to tell her once I was already there..

I got busted, cause she saw one of the flight bookings in my mailbox, so at that point I had to explain what I was gonna do, which she strongly disagreed with. But then her mother suggested to come and try to see me, so I'm still going and we're going to meet on Tuesday!
Fingers crossed..


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I am so glad you spoke to him! He is so good at helping lay out a plan. What did he say about trying to move closer together?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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So, yesterday I flew back to Poland, and HERE I am now, about a hundred kilometers far from my Wife....
She is still very doubtful about seeing me and criticizes a lot my SELFISH idea to reach her... Not a good moment to give her chances to be more unhappy, but I hope the selfish idea will turn out to be a good one in a long term perspective.

What did Dr. Harley say about the idea of moving closer together?
Actually we have not touched the topic, nor did we touch the topic of me taking the sudden decision of coming here now.
I'm actually flying 'solo' in this specific instance and, indeed, I might have broke some 'rules', but I felt to do it to show a stronger sign of my good intentions both for my Wife and for her family.

I told my W I do not expect her to meet me at all costs, or how much time we shall be together. There is no rush. I'll just stand-by patiently, cause the important thing right now is to show I'm here for her.

I hope the selfish idea will turn out to be a good one, or at least set grounds for other good ideas to come.



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It isn't selfish.

You have chosen to try to fix the mess and to show that you choose her.

Being closer is the right thing to do.

If your wife sounds negative about it.....who could blame her. You have hurt her and she is upset with you.

Moving near her or with her is correct. Stay the course of showing the whole hearted chance that you want to make amends and create a real marriage.







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Originally Posted by mane
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Hi mane, how are you doing? How did your session with Steve Harley go? [I am assuming you meant Steve Harley]
Yes, I managed to talk to Steve Harley last Friday.. he made me talk a lot about the A and about how have my wife and I been getting along these last few weeks and he already gave me some explanations and suggestions.. I was so impressed by his confidence and clarity.. I'm happy I called him. Next step is for my wife to talk with him (she agreed to give it a try!), then we'll see...

Also, I've been talking a lot yesterday with friends, family and with my boss (who is also a good friend of mine). Thankfully, I got a permission from my boss to fly home for some days.
Since my wife was against seeing me so far despite my offers, I had to break some rules and booked tickets and a room in a city near her place without asking or presenting my plan, with the idea in my mind to tell her once I was already there..

I got busted, cause she saw one of the flight bookings in my mailbox, so at that point I had to explain what I was gonna do, which she strongly disagreed with. But then her mother suggested to come and try to see me, so I'm still going and we're going to meet on Tuesday!
Fingers crossed..

It seems as if your W had an appointment to speak with Steve Harley this morning, so i hope that bodes well for the two of you to follow a plan to reduce the pain together.

Will your W accept your offer to meet sometime later today?

LTL

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Sorry to get back so slowly, but my internet connection is a bit unstable here.

Originally Posted by LearnedTooLate
It seems as if your W had an appointment to speak with Steve Harley this morning, so i hope that bodes well for the two of you to follow a plan to reduce the pain together.

Will your W accept your offer to meet sometime later today?
As you all know, my wife has had her appointment with Steve Harley and then yesterday she joined me for a talk.

She told me SH did not heal her, but she was impressed about his confidence in the MB plan, so she agreed to give it a chance. Note she said 'IT', not 'ME', but i did not really expect that and a chance is still a chance, so that made me a bit calmer about the near future.

About our own discussion the next day (yesterday). We sat in a quiet corner, inside her favorite cafe' here. She arrived a good ten minutes in advance, so when I arrived she was already there. I approached her with a kiss on her cheek and remained close to her for a few seconds, hoping that would ease a bit the initial tension. Then I sat next to her and there was silence for a moment.
We started talking about the simple topics, like how are the children and the family doing, then the discussion went winding into the more complicated and painful issues. There were a lot of tears from both sides, but that was the first time in the last 3 and a half weeks that we managed without the excesses of negative or angry reactions. We were not near to reaching any plan or solution, but we were moving along and that was the important.
Then there was a question about a little but important detail about my wrongdoings with the OW and, again, another terrible truth about my idiocy came to light.. you all know how our meeting ended right away.

Not only affairs make people selfish, but they make people completely and hopelessly STUPID.

So stupid that, once you are back and look at it from outside, you cannot find a logical reason for none of the things you've done. An infinite series of senseless, risky, reckless, cruel acts towards everyone involved. And while you are at it, you just do it, because you became so terribly STUPID.

Another day of blaming myself. Li'l too late, right?

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If you are indeed seeing it from the other side of the WH FOG, that is fantastic news as hopefully that will better prepare you to deal with the roller coaster of responses you will be getting from your BW.
I give you props for finding MB for taking the steps to be physically closer to your wife and trying to get started on the path to recovery.
Please follow the steps as guided by SH and other knowledgeable posters who are leading you here and stay on track un wavered by your wives emotional responses.
She will hurl several twoxfour your way and you will see her pain it unfolds. If you stay the course you will be rewarded with a stronger more loving wife loveheart that is with you with eyes wide open despite your "stupid" "selfish" phase.
I encourage you to be open and honest with her and answer her questions about the A as many times and with as much patience as you can muster . When you think you have answered them more times than needed ,know that she might still ask again. Her process for getting out of this mess is very different than yours so you will need to be aware of what she needs and be prepared to give it.

THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE AN EASY RIDE.
I have been in the BW shoes and my DH's commitment to NC and brutal (and painful) honesty about details of the A played a huge part in be being able to deal with the pain and aftermath. Not immediately mind you, in the beginning it seemed like every detail was a step back ward, every conversation with him felt like another stab in the wound. But 5 years later I know that without those painful steps I would not be able to sit here and type without anger or resentment towards a WH.

Yes you have indeed been more selfish and damaging than you can imagine !

The good news is you can try to make amends and hope that she will willing/able to participate in recovering your M.
The choice is really hers to make at this point and you can help your self better your odds by implementing your part in the MB plan.


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D-day 4/29/08
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Originally Posted by mane
so she agreed to give it a chance. Note she said 'IT', not 'ME', but i did not really expect that


I think your wife is a woman of sense smile The MB plan has been proved many times but you haven't yet.

I'm still liking your unfogged vibe. You don't expect ( a fogged wayward has a huge ego and sense of entitlement) and your compassion is at full throttle to the point where it hurts you.

I never have any sympathy for a wayward when the power button to the conscience is in the 'off' position but when it clicks back on to 'on' they are in pain and I do. Every time your wife is hurt it will hurt you more.

I do like that you were honest about your stupidity and selfishness. It bodes well for you. Can you share the detail here?

However trickling out the truth bombs is disastrous for recovery. She needs to have her questions answered in a fell swoop so you can both move on with the rug swept out. SH can guide the truth telling situation.

Don't think that because this is your fault we are not interested in you. People who stab themselves in the foot are stupid, but they still need to heal and do better and proceed more carefully in the future!


Originally Posted by mane
Li'l too late, right?


It truly never is too late to start doing better.


Last edited by indiegirl; 02/27/14 07:54 AM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Quote
She told me SH did not heal her, but she was impressed about his confidence in the MB plan, so she agreed to give it a chance. Note she said 'IT', not 'ME', but i did not really expect that and a chance is still a chance, so that made me a bit calmer about the near future

I am worried a bit about this statement. I hope you are saying or trying to access the damages to your wife. Or is this a 'renters' statement? Dr Harley talks about Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders.

Here is the 'Renter Creed':
-Romantic Relationships require care---but that's only OK is its fair.
-I'll change for you if it's worth my while
-I'll sacrifice for you if you sacrifice for me.

Is this what lead to your affair? She shifted her attention while pregnant and this didn't seem fair?

And from Dr Harley's book Buyers, renters and Freeloaders"

"They do whatever it takes to make the relationship fulfilling to their partner---as long as it's fulfilling for themselves too. But Renters are always looking for something better, and their expectations of each other tend to increase the longer the relationship lasts...eventually they start limiting their care for each other, because they feel the other person is not meeting their standards. And they start making demands, show disrespect and becoming angry when they do not get what they think is fair. Eventually almost all Renter relationships become abusive. They do better than Freeloaders in a romantic relationship but they cannot experience sustained fulfillment until they become Buyers."

Again I hope you are attempting to understand how your selfishness has impacted your wife rather then whether this state of affairs you are now in with your wife is fair for you and whether to work on the marriage.

This healing is a process. It will not happen over night and over a couple coaching calls. There are phases to this process. There is hope. Your marriage will never be the same again. You both have to grieve for the loss. Eventually you will together learn the art of negotiation, learn to follow the policy of joint agreement. All this takes time and attention. The learning curve will seem steep because you have been operating with poor habits and new habits take time to practice. You are motivated to do these things because its the big picture and not short term. This will be a lasting legacy to your children. To get there it has to start with your empathy towards your wife's shattered world. Your return to Poland can't be about an agreement between you and your boss so you can see if the situation is fair for you. This would be short term thinking once again. Set the right foundation for healing. Today is the day. No excuses.


BW 58
WH 61
married 35 years
2 adult children
2 grandchildren

"Love anything and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one...It will not be broken, it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable...The only place outside of Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from dangers and perturbations of love is Hell" c.s. lewis
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Originally Posted by graceful2b
I am worried a bit about this statement. I hope you are saying or trying to access the damages to your wife. Or is this a 'renters' statement? Dr Harley talks about Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders.

Here is the 'Renter Creed':
-Romantic Relationships require care---but that's only OK is its fair.
-I'll change for you if it's worth my while
-I'll sacrifice for you if you sacrifice for me.
Beg your pardon, I might not have expressed that correctly. I meant I am glad that my wife is trying to consider the Harleys' plan as a way to heal, irrespective if she does for me, for herself or for the plan itself.
At this point of our lives, I do not want her to sacrifice anything for me. She already did sacrifice and loose a lot for me and my career already and in return I ended up doing what I did...
Time for me to do make changes and sacrifices, instead. So, no, I don't think I'm making a Renter's statement here, but thanks for raising the flag.

Originally Posted by graceful2b
Is this what lead to your affair? She shifted her attention while pregnant and this didn't seem fair?
Actually, no. She was dragged away from me by my company during her pregnancy and we could not be together for 10 months (exception made for 4 weeks vacation). During those 10 months I turned into something I was not before, started having a hectic social life and at some point I added the mistake to build a too wrong and too risky friendship with an opposite-sex person.

Originally Posted by graceful2b
I hope you are attempting to understand how your selfishness has impacted your wife rather then whether this state of affairs you are now in with your wife is fair for you and whether to work on the marriage.
No no no, from my side there is no "whether to work on the marriage" doubt, but only the intention to get to work to make it better.

Also, the effects of my selfishness are so clear and hurting, but a difficulty I'm facing is to get to the ultimate understanding of how and why my selfishness was triggered in the first place? And how did I not notice I was falling in that vortex and why did I not protect myself from that?

I mean, the dynamics and the sequence of events that brought the affair to a start are recognized (I'm actually writing it all in a sort of diary which my wife has asked to read): in summary, lowering my guard and getting too close to an opposite-sex person and enjoying each other's company were the actual trigger of the affair (Steve Harley depicted it through an analogy with 'The frog in the pot' story...), but the reasons (conscious or subconscious??) why I did not step back before pulling that trigger are still under discovery...

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Originally Posted by graceful2b
I am worried a bit about this statement. I hope you are saying or trying to access the damages to your wife. Or is this a 'renters' statement? Dr Harley talks about Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders.


I really can't make sense of this statement. Not even a little bit. Do you mean 'assess'? His quote doesn�t even refer to an assessment of damage? Your meaning is really unclear. He is reporting factually something his wife said about giving the plan a go and saying he is relieved to have a shot. That is just a factual account of events. How that can be at all related to the buyer, renter or freeloader concept is a bit of a mystery. What are you saying?

I'm going to take a stab at it... you think Mane will give up without a lot of encouragement and hand holding and that makes him a renter? Honestly that is quite an assumption as he hasn't mentioned giving up once. Relief at a green light does not equate to despair and giving up at a red light.


Originally Posted by graceful2b
Is this what lead to your affair? She shifted her attention while pregnant and this didn't seem fair?


The cause of affairs is allowing OS people to meet key needs. There is no other possible cause.

People do not get up one day and decide they deserve to have an affair. Not even when they consider something to be unfair.

I am sure you have a really good point but it is sort of buried and I can't see it.



What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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