Have you read the concepts and do you have interest in using them?

I don't mean 'lesser level' regarding your general life skills, just you (and I) have lesser experience with implementation of the concepts.

I haven't heard you mention them yet. If you are here to just generally discuss then you will probably lose posters and your thread will become inactive because we don't do that here.

Your problems:

- your wife of 20 years is not in love with you
- she does not agree with your solutions
- and may pick her father when forced to choose
- FIL is not abiding by the rules
- dog pees in the house and uses furniture
- you fight in front of (special needs?) children

So, would you be interested in hearing the solutions Dr. Harley reccommends in situations like this?
Until now you are fighting on the wrong front, because although we like to help, you don't have to convince us, but your wife.

happyheart, I am open for anything quite honestly, but one of your "problems" are slightly off, she would never be "forced" to choose by me or any ultimatum. Also, yes, special needs and only one of two children are special needs. You have a question mark there, is that questioning what that means? Also, to just about everyone, I guess the biggest mistake was, assuming by a quick internet search for "general discussion" boards, this one came up. So, without much research, I posted a simple (or seemingly simple) question to a "general discussion" board assuming it was just that, general and my mistake for not knowing this was in fact a specific and directed board to a pre-defined plan. So, again I apologize for not understanding the directive for this site and was only trying to get some general advice on a specific scenario. Now, with that said and out of the way, I would accept any information anyone has on this board to assist in any way as long as it does not become offensive and unfortunately, people's tone can sometimes be taken the wrong way when only reading a post so if it is taken the wrong way, I am sorry.

One quick answer to another poster's question about whether the DW was enthusiastic about the food and furniture rule--we came to a mutual agreement we would do this in this new house which is less than two years ole because of the amount of accidents in our old house. But when it became an inconvenience, the rules began to shift. I do agree it may be nice to sit on the couch with a snack or even a drink but, the alternative is much worse such as ruined carpet and furniture, sub-floor damage and mold so....Also, how can we expect our kids to abide by these rules if we do not set an example?

There was a study done some years ago (nothing to do with Dr Harley) that professed to be able to tell in just five minutes whether a newly married couple would still be married ten years later. Apparently it was extraordinarily accurate. It turned out that it was based on using a camera to record the eye movements of the partner when his/her spouse was talking. Apparently we register disrespect with subtle eye rolls even without being aware of it.

What then happens over time is that these tiny feelings get magnified by the stresses of life. We women can do disrespect off the planet when we fall out of love. I was the queen of disrespect in my past marriage. We can also do independent behavior off the planet which is why happyheart states categorically that your wife is not in love with you.

When you are in love you want to please your spouse more than anything in the world. When you are out of love you want to punish him/her. It is an irony pointed out by Dr Harley that we come to treat our spouses worse than we would treat a total stranger on the street and yet this is the person in whom you have entrusted your life and happiness.

The solution is to get your wife to fall back in love with you. That might seem like a tall order from where you are right now but it is not that hard. The formula is right here and consists of stopping doing the things that are damaging her love for you (love busters) and doing the things that increase her love for you (meeting her core romantic emotional needs).

You have a great team helping you, let them work their magic. You will be so glad you did this.

Nice post, thank you

EJH: I see you are resistant to the posters suggestions. I think you will not be embracing these concepts because they are unique and not quite what other marriage counselors teach. Most marriage counselors listen and give little in the way of suggestions. Most marriage counselors are afraid to tell it like it is....for fear the husband/wife will not come back. I wish I had this forum before my marriage fell apart. I thought my marriage was great, but now I see things differently. My eyes are wide open. I don't think yours are open yet.

He doesn't know about the concepts wenang.



So what would you do if nothing changes and your FiL and DW make this permanent? Would you suck it up for ten/twenty years? Do you think you could realistically describe that as her not making a choice?

I struggle to post MB advice that you would understand without reading the concepts, but since everybody has to start with love busters, I'll explain the disrespect you'd have to eliminate and you can decide if you're interested, OK?

Your wife called you a bad person when you disagreed with her, which is very obvious disrespect.

Your telling her that it's wrong to support a slobby alcoholic who is mooching is a much subtler type of disrespect. Because most people (including me) would agree and find it reasonable.

But you're not married to most people. Whoever we are married to is also going to have thoughts/feelings that most other people find unreasonable at least once in their lives.

Disrespectful judgements involve anything which says to your wife that you know what is good/bad, right/wrong, reasonable/unreasonable.

When you question her viewpoint, it makes her feel just as you did when she called you a bad person.

It's ineffective, as most fighting techniques are. The more you debate the more you lose. MB techniques - avoiding disrespect, anger, independent decisions and building up a higher lovebank are better.

If your wife were passionately in love with you , she would be much more aware and sensitive of your viewpoint.

Most counsellors focus only on conflict resolution with no thought for resuming romantic love. However it is impossible to conduct marriage peacefully and well without it.

I don't think he is resistant so much as it is VERY confusing for a person out in Internet land to stumble upon a "marriage forum," post a concern not realizing knowledge of the MB program is assumed, then have a bunch of people tell them they are disrespectful and their wife is not in love with them and they need to do XYZ ASAP...

When I first began reading threads in this forum my reaction to the responses posters received was usually - WTH? Wow, that was HOSTILE! That poor person who asked for advice!

Fortunately for me (an now my marriage) I was very intrigued and started reading the columns and whatnot and saw how brilliant it is. And with the exception of when someone misunderstands a post, the advice given here now seems 100% accurate and helpful.

I wish I'd found this program before I got married. I could have avoided so much frustration and done things so much better from the start. But I see regardless of where one is in their marriage if both spouses will try this method simply cannot fail.

EJH: As a woman, reading Dr. Harley's columns and the advice in this forum is the first time in my life where I have felt validated, like, that is what I think/feel. That is how I am reacting. I am not unsusal in this silent resentment I have toward my husband. The difference is that now I understand how unfair it is to him - and our relationship - to not tell him how I feel. And I understand what can change it. Before I just felt like the long suffering victim.

Sorry - I know this thread is not about me. :-) but my point is that I now believe it is incredibly common that there are marriages where the man honestly believes things are great and has no idea the wife is not happy, has given up on feeling happy, and has checked out emotionally.

I believe the fact that your wife ignored your requests/concerns regarding the conditions under which another person could live in your home is a huge red flag. It may also turn out to be the best thing that ever happened for your marriage because it brought you here. Good luck!

That's why I try to direct people to the articles. No one explains it better, with more respect, calmness and common sense than Dr H.

For the life of me I can't understand the sense in posting on a free-for-all, multitude of opinions website. You're not going to take a non-expert seriously unless their advice already matches yours. However if your own advice was sound you wouldn't need others'.

Dr H has an unparalleled success record where other counsellors actually increase the likelihood of divorce. I've never seen two willing partners fail with this program. He also has people he has helped helping others - the best testimonial possible. Most counsellors keep their patients away from each other!

He and Joyce are celebrating 50 years together while most counsellors have a divorce rate higher than the general population.

His articles are free and you can hear him and Joyce interacting daily on the radio show entirely for free. The man could have retired years ago.

Yet with all that on offer, some people still would rather learn everything the hard way.





We do see that a lot don't we? The majority of divorces are filed by 'neglected' women whose husbands are stunned. They say they haven't done anything and their wives say exactly!

Women need the 15 hours more, so fall out of love first, and are the first to behave inconsiderately.

I will never forget the man who wrote to Dr H to say he was 'starting' to feel resentful because his wife fell asleep downstairs and never wanted sex. Dr H cooly told him his wife had been out of love so long he believed the wife now hated him.

The man responded he was only trying to concentrate on parenting and on providing with his job and Dr H agreed it was an innocent mistake but one which had created hatred. We hear from that wife all the time on these forums.

AnyWife, thank you for clearing a few things up for me and understanding where I am coming from. Most of what I see here I agree with, for the most part. One thing though it appears most on the list is confused about is the history with the FIL, which has never been explained. I think most people here, believe the feelings for the FIL from my wife have just developed over the last 20 years in a different way, and/or done so because of my relationship with her. This is not accurate. This long pre-dates me and is NOT with just me--it is with EVERYONE. This includes other family such as her mother, long time family friends, other counselors etc. it doesn't matter who. Family friends were cast out into an infinite abyss because they blamed him for his first divorce with her mother. Her mother expresses the same observations I do. Past counselors she went to as a kid as well as while her and I have been married have been terminated only a couple sessions in with the reasoning being they brought him up in discussions. It does not matter who--everyone is subject to this. There is nothing he could/would do that would be thought of as wrong, or so it seems. Everything else aside for a moment and only on the subject of him, there is far more to it and it is not denial on my part, just the facts. This is a very big hurdle and I honestly believe that there will never be a day where it is not the case. I truly believe we could be madly in love enough and have the absolutely most perfect relationship and this issue not be there. Again, everything else can be worked on, and I will read and try to understand the concepts here but just understand where I am coming from here on this specific topic.

Have you written Dr. Harley?

Did he cheat on her mother but no one told her?

Girls become clingy when dad leaves them inexplicably.

One more thing, does your wife consider him to be an alcoholic or would she not agree with you about that?

He did cheat on his first wife, and my wife would agree is an alcoholic. Alcohol was a big part of ending the second marriage as well. No I have not written Dr. Harley

EJH - We have one goal, and that is for you to have a fantastic marriage. It requires that you and your wife give up some bad habits and coping strategies. We can talk about different symptoms of your situation, but the underlying problem is that neither you nor your wife abide by anything resembling MB principles. That is where the change needs to happen. Both of you need to commit to a marriage of mutual care. MB gives you a framework for that. Once the program is in place, then the FIL problem and all the other issues will take care of themselves.

I know it sounds simplistic, but that really is all there is to it.

You really might consider it as he would be uniquely placed to help your situation.

Before he specialised in marriage counselling he ran a chain of clinics for the treatment of addicts, including the treatment of alcoholics. He gets many letters from the spouses of alcoholics as a result and I've heard him on the radio offer very inventive ideas. Of course nobody but the alcoholic can really make changes - but Dr H is very keen that friends and family don't enable them to avoid the changes necessary.

He insists the family should not help the alcoholic avoid the consequences of the choice - joblessness, homelessness, loneliness. Why else would they give up the addiction? Which is exactly what your FiL wants by living in your home - to continue his addiction but avoid real life.

If you were to speak with your wife about helping her father, and tell her you have found a specialist in this field to consult - then you could let Dr H be the bad guy. You are just the helpful husband trying to find a win-win.

One of the things I've heard Dr H suggest re alcoholics is very clever. Most alcoholics genuinely believe they can give it up at any time. The spouse and Dr H would suggest a treatment centre and if the alcoholic was resistant they would not push it. However they lock in an agreement that if he/she has another drinking binge, he/she must go. Of course they end up doing so.

Dr H also has a very unique insight into the minds of the children of adulterers, as well as the children of alcoholics.

I'm curious - was the affair properly exposed to your wife when it happened? Or was she left to draw her own conclusions? Was she told that adultery was wrong or were affairs normalised and made light of to her?

Usually daughters are hell on affairs but occasionally you see a child who is encouraged to embrace the affair. Either that, or she is simply not told the truth so she draws her own conclusions that cheating is normal and OK.

I would have thought that if the affair had properly exposed, then your wife would be disapproving of her father and not keen to help him.


This would be a problem for you if she thinks affairs, lying or finding your own happiness at the expense of a marriage are OK.

There is an article that Dr H wrote on this topic.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_lesson.html

(Now this part is important. Don't share this article with your wife in order to persuade her asit would be hurtful coming from her husband. It would be viewed as diagnosing her/lecturing her and that is a disrespectful judgement. This is for your information only, OK?)

By the way it is EXCELLENT news she considers him an alcoholic too. That could be a starting point for your negotiations.

One thing I have to keep in mind, unless someone can convince me otherwise is, I have found to tread VERY lightly discussing either issue, the alcohol or the affair. It will immediately get shut down with extreme attitude, and I mean extreme. Very strange thing about the affair though, in a few short years after this (I was in the picture dating at this point) but the two women (ex-wife and new wife) became friends! They even would occasionally do things together. I am not 100 % on how it was initially conveyed to the kids but it did not go well..at all as expected but she clung to the dad and the sister did not, at the time anyways. I like all of these ideas but I did politely and tactfully discuss the drinking prior to living with us. I expressed I just did not feel comfortable drinking so much in front of my daughters. He said, "I will never stop drinking, I like my beer", and that was the end of conversation. If I were to pursue it more, very bad things would have happened.

If you mean 'tread lightly' with him, his reaction is neither here nor there. You don't have to maintain romantic love with him, but with your wife.

The only way your marriage will survive is if you and your wife find a way of being in accord. That means implementation of the policy of joint agreement.

There is usually always a way to satisfy even seemingly disparate goals. One way to help your FiL (her goal) and get him out (your goal) is to make him stand on his own two feet. It doesn't matter if he does not like it. What matters is that your wife agrees it is a solution.

She may not agree initially, but she might if he worsens in your home. Since enablement WILL worsen him you might ask her to consider it if he were to get worse, if nothing else.

I'm sure Dr H will be able to give you a few pointers to start a respectful persuasion dialogue with your wife. If you were able to get her to speak with him he would be able to tell her as an expert that addicts never go willingly to help. It would come better from him an expert. The same thing from a husband is slightly patronising.