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] IHell, I don't even WANT to spend time with my husband. I want some time and space to work out some of my anger and resentment...to finally take care of ME. And I don't want things to feel forced. Resentment fades if you create a romantic, happy marriage in the present. The mind does not wander to the unhappiness of the past when you are happy in the present. That is the whole purpose of this program. But it has to be followed step by step. Like Harley said: "Our program for recovery only works when it's followed. The 15 hours of undivided attention we recommend is an essential part of the program because it provides the opportunity to meet emotional needs that cannot be met any other way. There are lots of excuses for failing to follow that aspect of our program, but in the end, failure to follow it results in a failed recovery." My program of marriage recovery is exactly the same as most weight loss programs. Whenever it's followed, the marriage recovers. I know of no other program of marital recovery that can make that claim. In fact, if you follow the advice of most marriage recovery programs today, your marriage will not recover. That's why a 1995 Consumer's Report survey found marriage counseling to be the least effective form of psychotherapy. Only 16% found the experience to be helpful.
For those who complete my program of marital recovery, 100% find the experience to be more than helpful -- it solves their marital problems. But just like in dieting, the successful outcome depends entirely on motivation. Only those who are not motivated enough to complete the program fail.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Most people find me very easy to talk to and very open minded. "You talk and talk but don't seem to DO." I'm not sure what you are asking me to do. The only thing I've been told to do that I have not done is not in my control. My husband is in a tenure track position. I've known for many years the first five years of that would leave pretty much no time for me or the kids. I accepted that long ago. You want him to quit his job that has the potential to guarantee life long job security within the next 2 years? I'll read back through all of the posts, but I don't remember seeing much in the way of advice or instructions. I think I've been pretty remarkable about answering all questions promptly and thoroughly. To be frank, I didn't really come here for advice or instructions, but at my DH's request, I have posted here and left myself wide open to critique while being told to avoid the thread where he shares his feelings...something I have been waiting for him to do with me for 15 years. My DH has wounded me deeply and completely unintentionally. I don't trust that it won't happen again. I don't want to spend time with him. I can't picture us in love again. I feel dead inside. My behavioral therapist has been very good at helping me see DH's POVs and coming up with effective ways of talking to him about my feelings and expectations. That is working well for me. So, I ask again. What is it you'd like for me to do? I've answered every question. I've been completely open and honest. Are you just picking through my posts, mostly ignoring me while you choose which points to feed to my DH? So far, things have only gotten worse since I started posting. My DH has been mopey, whiny, and sad. I guess I finally got some emotions afterall. 
*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
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If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
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So, I ask again. What is it you'd like for me to do? I've answered every question. I've been completely open and honest. Are you just picking through my posts, mostly ignoring me while you choose which points to feed to my DH? So far, things have only gotten worse since I started posting. My DH has been mopey, whiny, and sad. I guess I finally got some emotions afterall. We want you to follow the program, step by step. The first step is to find 15-20 hours per week to get out of the house. If you can find the time to go to work and take care of your kids, you can figure this out too if you make it a priority. After all, your marriage is the most important thing in your lives. You won't get much use out of his career if you are divorced, and that is where you are headed now. Start here: How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your MarriageAnd pay special focus on Lovebusters. I would get the book Lovebusters and the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love and start there. Take turns reading each chapter and do the lessons at the end of each chapter. The UA time needs to be taken seriously or this is all a waste of your time. You will become quickly discouraged when you don't see any results and you won't see any results if you don't take this step seriously. You will just get discouraged and quit. UA Time worksheet It would be ideal if you could go through the Marriage Builders program. They would assign you a coach and motivate you to complete the lessons. Those of us who have gone through it have great marriages to day. You can have that too. But I don't believe you or your H are focused or motivated enough to do this on your own.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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How would you address the conflict of UA being against POJA. I honestly don't think spending loads of time with DH right now is going to be good for us. I wrote in detail why...could someone respond to that? I don't mean that to be rude. I kind of feel like all of my time and efforts to explain my concerns with the program are being ignored.
*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
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How would you address the conflict of UA being against POJA. I honestly don't think spending loads of time with DH right now is going to be good for us. You honestly don't have the slightest idea how to create a great marriage. You are speaking to someone who does have a great marriage from using this program. How about putting aside your own failed ideas and try Marriage Builders? If you want to have a great marriage, you can have that. But if you aren't here for that, then what is the point?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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How is the POUA against the POJA?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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How is the POUA against the POJA? Because I don't want to spend time with him. After reading back through this thread, I owe an apology to indiegirl. You spent a good amount of time answering some of my concerns and I remember planning a response, but got distracted and forgot. A lot of that has set off some big red flags for me.
*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
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How is the POUA against the POJA? Because I don't want to spend time with him. We know this. That describes about 99.99999% of couples who come here in crisis. They have fallen out of love and would rather do just about anything than spend time together. The solution is to learn to create great times together. That is achieved with the policy of joint agreement while avoiding love busters.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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How would you address the conflict of UA being against POJA. I honestly don't think spending loads of time with DH right now is going to be good for us. I wrote in detail why...could someone respond to that? I don't mean that to be rude. I kind of feel like all of my time and efforts to explain my concerns with the program are being ignored. Here is some advice from Dr Harley on the private forum on that subject: As with all couples we counsel, our goal is to create and maintain romantic love for each other. But before that goal is achieved, we suggest behavior that that will achieve that goal -- avoiding Love Busters, and meeting important emotional needs. While it's much more difficult to do those things when not in love, they will lead to romantic love if done right, which then makes it much more heart-felt and easier to do. Right now, we are trying to help you both avoid disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts, and would like you both to spend more time meeting each other's emotional needs for conversation, affection, recreational companionship, and sexual fulfillment.
If you do these things only when you feel like it, it won't get done and you will remain in limbo. So to answer your questions, 1) yes, you should have gone out with him, making the evening as enjoyable for both of you as possible, and 2) redacted
By the way, it is possible for you both to be in love with each other, but you must stick to the program. I think the short answer is that you need to do UA time. Do not go with your feelings today. You feelings will change when you make your times together the most enjoyable part of your week.
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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I wrote in detail why...could someone respond to that? I don't mean that to be rude. I kind of feel like all of my time and efforts to explain my concerns with the program are being ignored. Wow!!
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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"No man ever fell out of love for not getting sex. "
I think anyone could fall out of love if their #1 EN is being completely neglected. There has never been anything easy about saying no to him when it comes to sex. I wouldn't compare it to the other emotional needs, because sex is very different to them. It is the only emotional need which can be safely disregarded when falling in love. None of the other four intimate emotional needs can be - sex can. I think sex played a very major role in him falling in love with me. Very early in our relationship he disclosed that he had only been with two other girls and only once or twice each. We had sex on our first date and pretty incessantly there after. Maybe we were doomed from the start.Even the non intimate needs outrank it! It also doesn't matter how high it is on a list of person's needs. I have a high SF need myself and I can assure you it is perfectly possible for me to be in love without sex. However if there were no conversation, (a lower need for me) I'd struggle. There's a reason why first dates all concentrate on the same needs, regardless of the people concerned, because sex doesn't build love, the ENs of affection, recreation and conversation do. One of my big (and very painful) realizations earlier this year was that he wouldn't love me without sex. He was indeed falling out of love with me as our sex life further deteriorated. He declared that "hope [for a better sex life] was all [he] had left." I told him how much that hurt me and asked what would have happened had I actually gotten cancer and was too sick to have sex for months on end. He was silent. He never responded. He never said that he'd love me anyhow and that he'd be there for me no matter what. He is a very honest man and many of those very honest responses (or lack thereof) very clearly told me that his love depended on me getting my [censored] together and taking care of his #1 EN for sex. It wasn't even ever regarded as intimacy...it has always been intercourse. I've never been able to keep up with his sexual appetite and I've tried desperately for 15 years. And each time we had sex, his satisfaction was momentary. Almost immediately he would be focused on the next time he'd get inside of me. I felt so unappreciated and used.Dr H tells women constantly they needn't have premarital sex if they don't want to because it does zip for creating love. It's incredibly common for men in particular to discard their sexual partners. It just simply does not create feelings when the need is met in isolation. That's why men exercise patience through courtship. That patience has never existed in our relationship. We had sex just 4 weeks after I had a very traumatic c-seciton with our first child. My incision got infected and was reopened (without proper anesthetic) and left wide open and stuffed with gauze for the first week. Then it was a disgusting open wound until it finally closed up around 6 weeks postpartum. That means I had sex with him with a nasty open wound where his son was ripped from just inches away from where he crammed himself into me. I felt so obligated to satisfying him that after my hysterectomy in 2012, I asked for a note from my gynecologist explaining he would have to wait 2 more weeks for sex because my cervical incision had not healed properly and had to be cauterized.It's like how a woman with a high financial support need will fall in love with a penniless, albeit promising, student, and even many years later she will stay in love with him through a period of unemployment. Some of the needs are perfectly capable of patience. I truly don't want you to worry about this (having sex while ill for example!). You talk about 'withholding' sexual energy - but you don't have any to withhold! It's your husbands job to create it - it's entirely on him. It's not neglect it's honesty. Meeting another person's needs unenthusiastically is play acting. It's dishonesty. It fails to hit the mark too, so the need remains as unfulfilled as if you hadn't bothered. Agreed. He seems to have opened his eyes to this mindset and I really hope he fully understands and believes it." He has chosen to fight for our marriage, but how am I supposed to know if he truly understands that difference (meeting my ENs because he loves me or because he wants me to screw him) and can maintain it or if this huge amount of effort on his part (he agrees he is working harder than he ever has) is not sustainable? Ah, of course you don't want your needs to be met unenthusiastically either! I don't think you need worry that your husband's sole focus is on sex. I doubt he married you only to have sex with you - because sex can be had with anybody. Not even the most sexually obsessed person would make that their criteria. Just ensure the 'work' is pleasant! The dates should become his favourite time of the week. From his posts it sounds like he misses you and wants to get you away from your desk.
*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
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I wrote in detail why...could someone respond to that? I don't mean that to be rude. I kind of feel like all of my time and efforts to explain my concerns with the program are being ignored. Wow!!  I don't think you read that right. My biggest internal conflict is as follows and hasn't been addressed: My DH is very genuine and honest. He has never in his life tried to hurt me (or anyone else as far as I know) and never would intentionally try to hurt me. Despite that, he has damned near destroyed me. I'm scared to open my heart up to him before I'm convinced he understands how he hurt me in the first place. I am still hearing him say things that are direct evidence that we're not on the same page. I am someone who has a long history of making myself vulnerable to people who have repeatedly hurt me and I am not comfortable given him that opportunity again. He is beyond frustrated with me and I don't know how to handle it anymore. I'm starting to really think this is a lost cause.
*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
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Maybe I need him to look me in the eye and swear to me that he would still love me if I never had sex with him again. Of course, I've told him that before and then quickly followed it up with "but, I'd never do that to you." Still, he has never in any way even hinted that he could stay in love with me without his sexual needs being met. I don't think he can. It's been about 2 months and by far the longest he has had to go without sex since meeting me.
*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
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[I am still hearing him say things that are direct evidence that we're not on the same page. I am someone who has a long history of making myself vulnerable to people who have repeatedly hurt me and I am not comfortable given him that opportunity again. He is beyond frustrated with me and I don't know how to handle it anymore. I'm starting to really think this is a lost cause. I agree this is a lost cause if you won't follow the program. We can't change your marriage if you refuse to follow these steps. We understand you are hurt and frustrated, but those feelings won't change until both of your actions change. Feelings follow actions, feelings follow actions. We have seen marriages 10x worse than this that were transformed in a matter of a few months. But you have to put aside your own notions and follow this program.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Smile,
I will say my last bit and then hope others can get through.
Regardless of the past, which was bad as we ALL can see, please understand that you cannot seem to move forward because of the past.
You write a lot, say you talk a lot, and are big on hashing out the past in therapy. I wish I could try to convey to you that the past needs to be left there and NEW habits/future need to be the focus.
If you want to get q divorce, do it. But if you want to try and save this, please open your mind to the concepts. Yes, it doesnt feel right, it feels unnatural - that is because unhealthy marriage is your natural.
Good luck. I went through a similar thing years ago and the program saved us. But it can't save you when the past is constantly held over ones head like a hammer.
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Maybe I need him to look me in the eye and swear to me that he would still love me if I never had sex with him again. Of course, I've told him that before and then quickly followed it up with "but, I'd never do that to you." Still, he has never in any way even hinted that he could stay in love with me without his sexual needs being met. I don't think he can. It's been about 2 months and by far the longest he has had to go without sex since meeting me. You are creating a condition where no matter what he says, he is damned if he is and damned if he isn't. If you can't give him the opportunity to do anything without being wrong then yes, he will get frustrated and give up. You did that to several posters in a previous thread, I think all of us were female. I think it is important for you to realize how much this attitude kills motivation in anyone who wants to be there for you.
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I wrote in detail why...could someone respond to that? I don't mean that to be rude. I kind of feel like all of my time and efforts to explain my concerns with the program are being ignored. Wow!! I don't think you read that right. My biggest internal conflict is as follows and hasn't been addressed: My DH is very genuine and honest. He has never in his life tried to hurt me (or anyone else as far as I know) and never would intentionally try to hurt me. Despite that, he has damned near destroyed me. I'm scared to open my heart up to him before I'm convinced he understands how he hurt me in the first place. I am still hearing him say things that are direct evidence that we're not on the same page. I am someone who has a long history of making myself vulnerable to people who have repeatedly hurt me and I am not comfortable given him that opportunity again. He is beyond frustrated with me and I don't know how to handle it anymore. I'm starting to really think this is a lost cause. We understand that you're hurt and not in love with him anymore. Dr. Harley guarantees that if both spouses follow MB that there is 100% success. I REALLY think you need to sign up for the online program. You'll have your own coach to coach the both of you. The coach will be able to help guide your H to stop committing Love Busters and to fill your ENs.
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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I rehash the past because of the number of times I have forgiven people and allowed them back into my heart just to be hurt again. I don't want to fall back in love with a man who hurt me whilst having the best of intentions and no clue he was doing it. I abandoned ship in order to save my life and I don't really want to jump back on board until it's passed safety inspections. I'm not ready to make that leap of faith. DH has only very recently realized any of what he did to get us here. I think he can use some time to think about those things and give me some space to work through my anger. Things have been worse between us since he's been on here and our discussion tonight was a disaster--the worst we've ever had by a long shot. The holidays were actually not bad and I was starting to relax around him until he started pressuring me to schedule UA. I don't think I can feel honest/genuine during UA until I work through some of my anger issues and actually have some desire to be around him. I've challenged him to make that more appealing to me just like he'll need to do for SF. In the mean time, I kind of followed him to the middle of nowhere and am stuck here unless I want to tear his kids away from him, which I won't do. Things were getting better the way I was doing it, so I'll go back to that.
Thanks for your time,
Smile
*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
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He was indeed falling out of love with me as our sex life further deteriorated. He declared that "hope [for a better sex life] was all [he] had left." I told him how much that hurt me and asked what would have happened had I actually gotten cancer and was too sick to have sex for months on end. He was silent. He never responded.
That patience has never existed in our relationship. ( Then make it a part of your relationship now. No porn. No discussion about sex whatsoever. No discussion about when you think your drive is going to return. Tell him you expect patient, pleasantness while this is going on. To show you that his sexual need isn't a 'do now or die' issue. I don't really think it is - he just wants clear directions on how to show that to you. All you can do is insist on behaviour that you can respond to. Honestly I think your request about no sex if you got cancer would have been incomprehensible to a man. He would have been thinking 'What on earth does that have to do with the real situation?!' or 'Would she seriously rather have cancer?!' You'd have to be a woman with similar ENs to yours to understand what on earth you were going on about there. I understand that you want the need for affection to be met. The need for affection is always strictly non-sexual. It's usually a need for women becausse they know there may be periods where they cannot provide sex, such as after childbirth or during illness. They need regular, strong, asexual expressions of care from their partner so they know they will always be provided for, regardless of sexual output. In order to make your complaints comprehensible stop giving him 'stream of consciousness' dialogue and start giving the type of directions you would give in a car and he were driving. Short and to the point. Women are often very resistant to the idea of spelling their need for affection out. Meeting the need for affection
1. Hug and kiss your wife and tell her you love her every morning while you're still in bed. Rub her back for a few minutes before you get up.
2. Tell her that you love her while you are having breakfast together.
3. Kiss her and tell her you love her before you leave for work.
4. Call her during the day to ask how she is doing and that you love her.
5. After work, call her before you leave to tell her when you will be home, and tell her you love her.
6. Buy her flowers on the way home at least once a week, with a card that tells her you love her.
7. When you arrive home from work, give her a big hug and kiss and spend a few minutes talking to her about how her day went. Don't do anything else before you have given her your undivided attention.
8. Tell her that you love her as you are having dinner together.
9. Help her clear off the table and wash and dry the dishes with her, giving her a hug and kiss at least once, and tell her that you love her.
10. Hug and kiss her and tell her you love her in bed before you both go to sleep.
As the weeks go by, I have the wives review the list to be certain there isn't anything in it that they object to, or that should be added.
Wives will often complain that it's not real affection because it doesn't come from the heart. If their husbands have to be told what to do, they're not really being affectionate. But this exercise in affection is not fake. It is real. Their husbands really do love them and whenever they express that love, it is real. The problem is that they have not learned to express how they really feel. This exercise simply teaches them how to show their wives the care that they've felt all along Now I'm not sure that the above list would do the trick for you because you seem to dislike physical affection at the moment. Notes and flowers might work better. Perhaps kisses on the forehead. The point is you need to give your husband a similar set of precise directions. Otherwise he is going to feel directionless and hopeless. It's also worth considering that he can't just tell you he would care for you in some future scenario. He has to show you by meeting your needs. For that to happen you need to go out on 15 hours UA a week. Even if he shows you care for 8 hours a week, it isn't going to be enough to have a dramatic input on your feelings of fear. You will have to trust us there.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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I've challenged him to make that more appealing to me just like he'll need to do for SF. I think that is an excellent idea. What specifically can he do to make you feel like hitting the target on UA time? No 'he needs to make me feel' responses allowed! You understand that you won't be talking about your relationship during UA time?
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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