Your marriage is over unless he agrees to those conditions.

If he agrees to the conditions MelodyLane outlined, it will involve the type of transparency that will allow you to monitor how he's using his computer. Just getting away from pornography would be a huge indicator that he's trying to change his thinking in this area.

Dr. Harley has a great article here on pornography and has a lot of advice for men on that topic. If your husband is serious, he will work to quit viewing porn and allow you the technical accountability to know it has actually happened.

I know you haven't mentioned anything about porn but if he's seriously asking for a threesome I would bet money that he is a porn addict.

Sl, don't stop now. Keep moving forward until you close the deal.

Look at you go! OWs mother sounds amazing.



This could be who he is. Or he may need a super duper dose of the gutter.

Either way, Plan B is your next step. It will protect you from his abuse while he is acting like a jerk. If he comes round, then you won't have as much resentment as you otherwise would have if you'd stayed in touch.

If he doesn't, divorce hurts less (it really does - Plan B changed my life!)

He doesn't get to sleep walk this though and talk about how he doesn't feel the same for you yada, yada.

That's all gaslighting designed to make you feel powerless.

He does it enthusiastically and happily, or he goes into the oven until he's ready.

Ax, this is going to sound naive after everything that has happened. But as far as I know he does not look at porn. He stopped early in our relationship at my request. And I routinely look through things on his computer and his phone. Not really out of suspicious feelings, but because I'm just snoopy sometimes and don't really trust men to not look at porn. But I totally know that I could be SO WRONG here. Nothing can be assumed anymore. Was anything real/true the past 5 years?

So what I understand I am being told for the next step:
1. give him my conditions for saving the marriage (checklist)
2. if he agrees (enthusiastically?), then we proceed
3. if he is a butt about it, then proceed to plan B and get him out of our (my?) home.

And to make progress on this TODAY?

Who are the people who criticized exposure?

They may need watching.

It can take a few days to get ready for Plan B, but you should lay down your conditions now. If he's at all sulky just say it's not impressive and he may want to think about where he will live.

You can ask him to leave now if he's getting on your nerves. As long as you are cool, calm and looking good you are Plan Aing.

Dont forewarn Plan B though.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2482787

This thread explains Plan B logistics.

We don't expect him to be enthusiastic about it. But everything else is correct. Do this today. If he won't agree, then tell him it is time to separate and pack his bags.


Not sure what this means.

Ok so updates. I'm thoroughly confused.


Met up with him this afternoon. He is devastated and heartbroken over the end of his affair. He is sad about everyone in his life being mad at him, but that's not really his problem. His problem is losing her.

Our meeting was to discuss what we wanted to do next. When the meeting started I honestly didn't know where I stood anymore. I kept trying to convince myself that I wanted to attempt to save it (like you all were saying to) but bleh.

He says he doesn't know what he wants to do. I tell him I didn't know either. I think he was surprised I wasn't as strong in my conviction to save it anymore, because then he started steering the conversation towards trying to save it.

I found myself getting excited when he went this direction. So I guess I still had hope in me after all. So I explained the conditions. Extreme EPs and the checklist. He wasn't thrilled, but wasn't really showing much emotion at all about anything. He didn't seem thrilled to even be getting a chance to reconcile. But he kept going there in conversation when I would say maybe we should just separate. At one point, I asked him if he really even wanted to work things out with me. And the answer I got was something about it being the easier choice. Easier = easier than getting his crap and moving out, trying to find somewhere to live, trying to find a job and still finish his semester. (I've been the breadwinner for several years now while he is in school.)

I don't want to just be the easier choice. That's an example of a point where I told him we should just get separated if that's the case.

But somehow we decided to try to work it out. And that he would accept my conditions and whatever. He then starts talking about the affair, in surprising detail.

Turns out, it wasn't just a physical thing, it was strongly emotional. They said I love yous. They planned out their life together for after he left me. They talked of moving to Dubai and taking our daughter with them.

It was such a punch to the face. He had thought I had known all this from my meeting with her yesterday... but I didn't. Yesterday she made it sound like he pursued her and then she got stuck having sex with him to "give him what he wanted so he would finally leave her alone". Something weird like that. But shoot, he was "in love" with her. I let him know her version that she told and he get really, really hurt.

He then went on about how she was really great because she was many things I am not. She really cares about her appearance and loves to go shopping. She isn't frugal like I am and cares a lot about how she looks and the clothes she wears. She comes from a rich family. She is incredibly beautiful.

I'm not unattractive. I'm not always dolled up, but I haven't let myself go either. I'm 5'7, 135 lbs. Not overweight at all and no one would guess I've had a baby. I do not have hundreds of dollars or hours to put into my appearance like an 18 year old who lives off mom's money. I'm a woman supporting my family and going to work at 5 am everyday so I can be home early enough to spend time with my baby!

So he tells me that he has conditions too. He needs things. He needs me to put more effort into my appearance cause apparently he needs that. So, I know physical attractiveness can be a love need. So, I guess it is pretty high up for him? I don't know how to digest this. Yes, I can try harder I suppose. But, I haven't totally been failing in this department. I asked him for specifics of what he was meaning. He thought about it and made a "joke" about how I could weigh 110 lbs. Apparently evil slut weighs 110 lbs and is a similar height to me. She also has D sized boobs apparently, while I have uhhh almost none (always been a huge insecurity of mine). I was so stunned by this comment. He kept saying he was joking, that he didn't think I was fat or needed to lose weight or get a boob job (but he wouldn't mind it)...

But then why say it at all?!

Suddenly I feel disgusting and undesirable. I feel so stupid for showering and trying to look presentable for when he came over. I don't look too different from when we got married, my body was fine for him then!

At that point it was time to pick up our daughter from daycare. I wanted to go melt into my bed and digest this avalanche of information but he invited me to come with him to pick her up. I thought I shouldn't reject the opportunity to spend time with him. It felt like he was trying, kinda. But it felt awful to be stuck in the car with him and feel disgustingly undesirable. And he is all depressed over hearing that she said the fling meant nothing to her.

After we pick up baby girl, he then starts heading away from home. He says he is kidnapping us. He takes us to a place for some drinks. They were some specialty cocktail made with an ingredient that had special meaning to us. It was a really nice thought. But I was in such a messed up mindset that pretending to keep it together was impossibly hard. And then during our meal he says something about how OW was going to tell her mom that her and husband were official a couple yesterday afternoon, but I just happen to beat her to the punch with exposure.

I felt like I was going to throw up and told him I needed some air. I got it together outside and started drafting an angry letter to OW and her mother about how OW lied to my face yesterday. I was furious.

After that we headed home. On the drive home I find out he went to see OW yesterday afternoon (just before exposure) and had taken our daughter with him. He did this after he promised to NOT take our daughter around her anymore. Gah, the disrespect never ends.

When we get home, I tell him I need some time on my own and take off in my car. I really just planned on calling someone in my support network and driving around. I only got about a mile away before I changed my mind. I felt like I was letting anger take priority of the situation, when I needed to make saving my marriage my priority and there was some quality time opportunity at home. So I went home. He sort of played with baby girl, but mainly was a useless lump of a person. So, I excused myself to go write an email and finished my angry letter to OW. I let her (and her mother) know she lied and listed all the things I knew she had done. I ended it with a request for her to please have her phone number changed since husband has it memorized.

Meanwhile, husband was texting her in the other room! Apparently he wanted closure after being hit with her toned down version of the relationship? Good grief. I told him to leave when he mentioned it to me. I opened the door and told him to leave. He said it didn't matter she told him that he had taken advantage of her hating herself and to never contact her again. So he said that was it. He didn't leave but I wasn't happy.

He is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo broken up about it. He can't believe it didn't mean anything to her at all! It was so real to him!
I keep trying to remind him that yeah that sucks, that is what you did to me. Yeah, she just trashed the entire future you imagined with her, yeah you did that to me.

He just doesn't seem to care at all that he did this to me. It's really irritating. I know he is hurting. But so am I! and somehow I am managing to still care for him. But he has no care for me.

He is now passed out on the couch.

I just don't know what to think. What is the point of this? I absolutely do not want to just be the "Easier" option. Or to be chosen simply because I'm the only option. What crap. I'm better than that.

Is this normal for this point of reconciliation? I imagine waywards must mourn the affair regularly. But do they do it right in front of you? Do I kick him out until he is focused more on us again? Do I just plan B him until he is invested?


Ahhhh.

Sorry this is a novel of a post. Just a lot to mull over.

I need to kick him out tomorrow, don't I?
I can't even believe the nerve to directly compare my body to hers and make it clear who won.

Yeah....I don't believe that for a second.

She is probably a trainwreck and my experience with talking to other BHs on here indicates this is common for wayward-minded (and usually promiscuous) women to play this card about sex when it suits them to be viewed as a victim. This is probably not the first time she has got into this sort of a situation, and thus her mother's strong involvement in making amends. Not to make excuses for your husband, it just reminds me of my WW and others on here.

But on the good side of things, that should be some nice cold water coming through his affair fog to hear that she threw him under the bus in front of her own mother.


Yes, physical attractiveness is an emotional need and usually a pretty high one for most men. That being said, you are correct. He wouldn't have married you if you were unattractive so don't believe that about yourself.


This is because he is too cowardly to just say that's how he feels about it. He's trying to get the point across without having to be responsible for how disrespectful the statement is.


No, he wants to continue this and try to salvage it somehow. Closure is "he never talks/calls/texts her ever again". That is closure. Closing the door on her. Forever.

Anything else is an excuse he is making to continue contact with her.


I want to say you sound like a very strong person and you've done a great job here.

That being said, yes this is pretty par for the course. Waywards are idiots and the only thing that matters to them while they are in the fog is themselves and the AP, in that order. Everyone else is expendable and they will destroy relationships with their closest friends and family with their thoughtlessness for the sake of their affair. It's very sad and I've seen it up close and in person.

I had to get a driver's license photo shortly before D-day in my situation (and shortly after my wife had told me she was "done", had no feelings for me, and was going to leave me if a few weeks of counseling didn't make her fall in love with me again). The photo is terrible, because I hadn't eaten or slept for days.

When I got home from the DMV, she looked at it and honest to God said "wow, this is a BAD photo of you! you look sick!" as if my entire world hadn't just collapsed on me a few days earlier. It was some sort of mystery to her that I would take a bad photo under the circumstances.

Other members here could tell stories a lot worse than that, I've read them. Waywards are extremely thoughtless.

Dr. Harley only recommends that women Plan A for 3 weeks. After that Plan B because the emotional harm begins to cause physical illness and problems in women.

The textbook answer would be to Plan A for 3 weeks (or as long as you can hold out emotionally), and while you are doing this, prepare for Plan B. Other posters may have more precise advice for your situation since this doesn't seem to be your husband's first affair if OW is telling the truth about that.

Hadn't eaten or slept for days. I can relate to that, Ax.
And I totally agree with you that he texted her to keep things alive. I fully believe he was looking for her to say she was lying to her mother to protect herself and that she does indeed love him. Thankfully she did not do that. And she has told me she will let me know if he ever contacts her again. She appears to truly be done with him. I say appears because she is a liar.

So right now it hasn't even been a week.
Remarkably, it hasn't even been two weeks yet since the affair started. It's so crazy to think about how much damage can be done in such a short amount of time. I understand it means our relationship wasn't in a healthy place to begin with, but whoa.

So if I was to do this for 3 weeks total. I think that would put me at two weeks from this Sunday? That would be when he first told me he was done. Monday was when he told me about the affair. I can't imagine doing this for 2.5 more weeks! It would just be more listening to him ramble on about OW and how incredibly wonderful and better than me she is? Ughhhhhh. In a best case scenario what happens after that? He suddenly sees me again? Does he suddenly care that I exist?

I want to say I have that in me. But I'm not sure right now. I'm not sleeping (notice how it's 3 am.) or eating, and have stress hives popping up on my body-- something I've never experienced before. So I can see how women have physical limitations to this. I have discovered such strength in this, I would hate to fall short of what needs to be done.

In regards to his other affair. It did happen. It wasn't full sex, like this affair, but might as well have been. Purely physical in hindsight, but definitely happened because he felt a brief bond to her. I confronted the woman, who was a casual *friend* of mine. She never responded to my message. However, husband told me that he had told OW2 today that I had found out. And to that, this OW2 responded by deleting all connection with him on social media and telling him to never talk to her again. She lives in Seattle, so at least I really don't need to worry about her. Funnily enough, she is the ex-girlfriend and baby mama of the SAME FRIEND whose cousin he just got involved with.

I can't believe he has disrespected his friend so much and shown such little care for a friendship he has valued since childhood. He really thinks his actions have no consequences. Earlier today he mentioned that I had ruined all his friendships. I tried to remind him that these are people that love him. People who care about him beyond his mistakes. He said he didn't care, he cared ultimately what people thought of him and didn't want to talk to any of them again, now that his name was soiled. My response to that was "if you don't want to be viewed as a cheater, then don't cheat."

Man, this is rough. Kudos to all of you on here that have been through this. This is tough work and really takes a determined and focused heart. I wish we could live in a world where the commitment of marriage was not dissolved by something as flaky as feelings developed in less than a week.

I'd like to make sure I am doing plan A to the best of my ability. So far, I have been trying to show him love and understanding. Even going as far as giving him reassuring touches and validating his pain as he nurses his broken heart for OW. I understand the euphoria at the beginning of a relationship and I do know that this was real enough for him to sacrifice his marriage for. This is going to hurt, even if all that is a fog of unreality. I have not really yelled at him through this. When I notice my voice raising, I have managed to tone it back and apologize. I have made no demands but maybe a few mild sarcastic statements. I could probably do better with that. And while I haven't looked my most glamorous, I have stayed presentable and cleaned up. Though, I guess he doesn't think that is good enough or attractive anymore. I'm not letting him walk all over me per-say, but I am actively expressing love and reminding him that I love him, even as the words coming out of his mouth suck the air out of my chest.

What this means is that your husband is not serious about recovery. The fact that he is still in contact with his OW and is talking about her means he has obviously not met your conditions. I would tell him he needs to arrange to move out if he cannot meet every condition on your checklist.

Have you gone over the checklist item by item?

I would call the OW's mother and inform her that they are still in contact.

I don't think getting rid of this OW is the bulk of your problem because I think he feels very entitled to his affairs. But you should focus on running her off while you get him moved out.

None of this has happened so it is time to ask your husband to move out. This will give you time to prepare for Plan B. It is very obvious that your husband is not serious about any of this.

Does your husband believe this checklist is negotiable? It doesn't seem like he is even aware of it. Extraordinary precautions should be taken to ensure this never happens again. You need to steer the conversation that way and drive this deal home.

x 2

I would also consult an attorney so you are aware of your rights.

It looks to me like your WH is in love with the idea of falling in love too. You two eloped after four months of dating. He told OW2 he loved her after what? A week? Now he is heartbroken and devastated. Then there was an OW1. Sorry but I think it is highly likely that there are more than two OW and would require a poly as a condition of R if you are even still interested.

You said he has had a number of sexual partners before meeting you, How many are we talking here?

You should also schedule an appt for STD testing ASAP. Whether or not a condom was used (and most lie about using one) you should be tested.

x2

Ok. I will keep all the in mind. A poly is a really interesting and appealing idea. Seems like a great thing to do to work towards opening everything possible.

Also, I already thought about the std testing. He did not use a condom and will be getting tested pronto.

I woke him up at 5 am to talk further about things and let him know that I went through his phone. I found a few things that worried me (a friend that was willing to lie for him). I wanted the truth right up. We had the first what felt like a productive conversation. He agreed to meet to any conditions and seemed to mean it.

This morning it feels things have changed for the better. I will print the checklist off and make sure we really pour over it and discuss what each thing means. I also will be getting the Surviving an Affair book.

He is taking our daughter to daycare right now. And then we are going to the movies? Is that too soon? It didn't seem like a bad idea to me all. Especially after our productive feeling conversation this morning.

I would say he falls in love with falling in love. I was the same way pre-marriage. But shoot, when I got married, I meant it! As demonstrated this week.

I'll keep you all updated. If I feel he is indeed not taking things seriously today, I will have him packing by this afternoon.

SIlentnight, as sorry as I am that you are going through this horrible situation, I commend you on your strength, control and patience during this Plan A process.

While your WH's behavior is repulsive and he's acting like a selfish broken-hearted school girl, I'm more bothered by the fact your WH allowed OW to spend time with your daughter after he agreed he would not. I'm mortified that (especially after only two weeks into the affair), they were discussing moving to Dubai, planning to TAKE YOUR DAUGHTER with them. Where do either of them get off planning such a disturbing and ridiculous fantasy as though they're some happy little family? Please make sure OW's mother is aware of the details as they unfold, every iota of contact between WH and OW, as she's proven to be very supportive of you and your efforts to save your marriage.

As Black Raven suggested, please seek legal counsel and find out what law-binding precautions can be taken to ensure your daughter isn't caught up in your WH's delusional fantasies. Your attorney should be made aware of your husband's pattern of infidelity and lack of boundaries, as well as his discussion with a virtual stranger about taking your daughter with them to live out of the country.

WH seems to have an active imagination, a loose set of morals, zero boundaries and absolutely no remorse for the pain and turmoil he has caused you. If your husband shows any resistance to fulfilling the checklist requirements or tries to bargain on the stipulations, he is not serious about reconciliation. You deserve so much more than being the "easy" option- once you get your Plan B in order, tell him he needs to find another living arrangement and he'd had better be gone by the time you get home from work.

And just so you know, what rates as attractiveness is a matter of opinion. Superficial people get stuck on outward appearances, which eventually fade with age, while others would find one's strong personal character and ability to support one's family on her own to be more appealing. Your beauty should not be relegated to your weight, clothing size, the amount of makeup and hair product you use. The fact you leave for work at 5am, work your butt off to make ends meet while your WH is in school (and having affairs) and still make your daughter top priority is by far more attractive than some young girl who lives off her parents and has absolutely no care in the world other than to primp and shop. While you are beautiful in your own right, your grace under pressure and your dependability makes you a rare gem. Don't let your fogged-out, immature WH shake your self-esteem and self worth. You're an incredible woman with a fantastic future ahead of her. My wise mother has a saying "beauty is skin deep; ugly is to the bone". My *very* wise grandmother would say, looong before MB came to be, "No man is worth crying over, there are more fish in the sea. If he's a cheating SOB, let the other woman have him- they deserve each other." Both were believers in karma.