Understood.

When I suggest it, often the response is "No, we (you) don't do POJA".

Then just DO it. Don't suggest it. Build the habit.

I learned that as my W read my posting and communicated that clearly. So, I am not sending out the letter. I'll just let the actions speak for themselves.

Thanks,
Remark

HHH,

Last night my wife asked for examples of when we ever successfully did POJA.

Today, we had an issue, had to make a decision re : our son. We did this via email each explaining our reasons. We came to a POJA solution of which I was proud and since I had been asked examples last night, I asked if we had successful POJA as an example per her question last night.
She never responded.
So tonight I asked if our decision/example from today qualified as POJA.
She said HHH told you not to talk about, just do it.

OK. I screwed up bringing it up.

Crap!

I am ashamed, even literally nauseous from how arrogant, narrow- and closed-minded I have come across to many, if not all, of you.

Thank you, those of you have posted with me. I appreciate your advice and counsel. Please understand that, for from what I understand clearly now, you probably didn't get that from my postings.

I apologize for being that way to date. I apologize to you, and especially my wife, for she has born that "arrogance" for 20+ years!

My prayer for you is that your marriages are healthy and stay healthy. And, I pray you don't feel I was a waste of your time. Thank you for investing in me.

My prayer for myself is that I can and will lose my narrow- and closed-minded natural and defensive behavior. And, that I can hear others' opinions, specifically hers, with more open-mindedness, more acceptance, more empathy, more understanding, and less judgement, valuing it above my own.

Since that is mostly behavior, it can change, as habits can change, with practice.

Much of what you collectively have been saying finally hit me "between the eyes" today.

Thanks,
Remark

What happened to day to bring this about?

How you "appear" to us, is of little import. How you appear to your wife is what matters.

That you came to a POJA decision with her might be a start. But what matters most is the manner by which you reach a decision. Here's an idea:

1. Print out the POJA rules from LoveBusters. Post them into the front of a small notebook.

2. Every time you have a decision to make or a conflict, pull out your cheat sheet and make sure that you follow the POJA steps exactly and in order. This is not as easy as it looks.

3. Write both of your positions into YOUR personal notebook. Read it back to your wife to make sure that what you are hearing correctly reflects her feelings about the subject.

4. Write down all enthusiastic agreements or plans.

5. Sign and Date each agreement or plan.

6. Refer to it often.

Keeping this notebook will help you to keep your agreements and learn to follow POJA without skipping important steps. Each step will take time to master. You wife's positive feelings during negotiation will be one indicator of success.

Sugarcane,
Today's show referenced me.
(Quick post as we're at restaurant celebrating sons birthday) more later if that's OK

Focus entirely on family time. Don't spend any part of the evening on your phone.

OK, Sugarcane, it's later though I don't know what new to say. I am still committed to being a Harley husband instead of the opposite as many see me. Am interested in being a Harley husband means exercising POJA and not just the convenient aspects of being married (like companionship, etc.). I know that.

No martyrdom here, just saying I can't seem to get us there.

Still feel blind to my narrow- closed-mindedness, even though I do whatever I perceive she asks with enthusiasm, not capitulation. She's just very withdrawn and doesn't ask much.

Quoting HHH, I've become an expert as I've made every mistake possible, I think.

Thanks,
Remark

Thanks, HHH,

Great idea. Have notebook. I know it isn't easy. Will foolow that plan.

Thanks for your support.
Remark

Remark - you've twice referred do the poster DidntQuit as "HHH".

Ughh, Thanks.

Hello, Remark,

I'm so sorry for disappearing on you at the beginning of the year. Things have been utterly crazy at work and I was not able to keep my level of activity here the way I would like. Then when I finally came back on regularly for awhile, I didn't see you, so I assumed you'd gone on.

I am glad to see signs that you are listening to the radio show, and I hope that is a regular, daily practice for you. Like I say, men in situations like ours need to SIT IN CLASS every day with Dr. Harley. We need to hear it over and over again, and then we need to get off our butts and do it.

You have got to focus on eliminating the love busters. Keep records. Keep yourself accountable. Each instance of independent behavior, each disrespectful judgment, etc., needs to be documented, so you can look back and ask "How many times have I engaged in independent behavior in the past week?" and review your progress. Read and reread the books, especially Love Busters, listen to the show, but most importantly, document your love busters.

Your wife feeling no hope is not something that you should try to change by you saying or doing something in one single moment. When you get to the past where those love busters are gone, your wife will finally be able to start to feel some hope. Until then, nothing you say is going to make a whole lot of difference, right?

I see lots of posters have given you a lot of great, detailed information about what you need to be doing. Please listen to them, and please DO what they are suggesting. It's not what you say that makes the difference, it's not what's happening at the moment that makes the difference, it's not your wife's current feelings that make the difference - it's what you DO.

Here is a great example of SugarCane giving you perfect information about what will work in your situation. I faced this exact same sort of thing, and my wife hated it when I went to see my family alone without her. She wouldn't go because they were disrespectful to her, and she told me I could go alone, but she was miserable.

I finally told them we and the kids wouldn't see them again until they apologized to her and provided assurances that they would not do it again.

It took them about two years to come around (much like the parents in the In-Laws chapter of Love Busters), but they did apologize, and we reconciled with them and have a great relationship with them today. But I had to be ready to go for broke - I wasn't going to see my parents at all except for funerals unless they apologized, and I expected at one point that I really wouldn't see them again until their funerals. In the meantime, we built a really happy life together on our own.

Here's what God actually says:

Ephesians 5:31-32
Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh
This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church

If you aren't getting this right, you aren't getting church right.

My faith changed in the most profound way possible after I finally became one with my wife.