To clarify my previous post, Remark saw nothing wrong with his activity and did it for several years, even against my voiced complaints. But as soon as I started mine, he saw it as completely inappropriate (affair-like,) because of the manner in which I connected to it. I guess he wanted me to post because he wanted you to explain this to me, since I don't agree with him.

Thanks for post Day...I get it. Will post tomorrow.

In the meantime here's something to try.

When your husband turns a discussion into an argument of comparison or fairness kindly ask if you can stay focused on the current issue without bringing in related topics. If he continues to compare then stop the discussion until his tone is pleasant instead of argumentative or debative. SMILE and say that you would be happy to talk about it when his tone feels pleasant again.

DQ, I gave this a shot. Yesterday, Remark and I tried to discuss yesterday's radio program. As he would commit love busters, I would ask him to stop the love buster. When he tried to change topics, I asked him to keep it on topic. When he wasn't giving me eye contact, I asked him to look at me while we were talking. When he responded to my question with a question of his own, I asked him to address mine first and then I would address his. I did similar with his defensiveness, his explanations, apologies, and distracting himself with his computer. I did pretty well, short of the smile perhaps, but then I've been doing this for a while so I've had some practice already. After about the 7th LB, he got angry at me. And though that sounds bad, it was good in a way.

I've felt for some time like he was figuratively "holding his stomach in" to try to look good and get by without actually implementing any changes. If only he could sell everyone on his commitment, then he wouldn't actually have to do anything else. And I've heard his words so many times, to me and on the forum, that they sound like script to me. Well last night when he got angry, he let his stomach out. The rant that occurred at that moment was the most honest, genuine words I've heard come out of his mouth in a very long time. There were no long pauses while he "formulated his response," no partial sentences, no contradiction with the prior sentence or back-tracking. It was clear, instantaneous, and real.

In summary, he complained that there are too many rules, and that he'll never be able to remember them all. He said (as he's said before) that he doesn't think he'll ever be able to jump high enough to make me happy. This wasn't said with concern or humility, but with glaring contempt for me, as if it's my fault. As if he expects me to drop my complaints and just be happy with him the way he is. Nevermind that the people on the forum had the same complaints that I do, or that the guidance he's been getting is straight-on Harley principles, even from Dr. Harley himself. It's MY fault, apparently, because expecting him to be able to have a healthy, respectful, productive interaction is expecting him to "jump" too high.

So while I sit here and type this with my stomach in knots, he's already in bed, and I'm having another one of those epiphany moments where I ask myself what the heck am I doing?!?! I've let myself get sucked back in and I'm making myself sick over this again, dealing with the same issues that he has supposedly been working on for 6 months with no evidence of change, and wasting away the only life I have, hunting desperately for the forest when the trees are right in front of me.

I think the Harley program is fantastic, and the people on the forum are the BEST! But it isn't working for us and I need to let it go. I need to live, to spend time with my son before he grows up, to get outside and enjoy the weather, to find the happiness I once had. So I need to sign off. Remark may still utilize this thread, but honestly, I can't imagine what else there is to say that hasn't already been said.

Thanks, to everyone.

I don't really understand why this happened at all.

You were discussing the radio show. That sounds like a bad idea to me, at this stage. Why not simply (both) listen to it?

I suspect that discussing it turns into your trying to see if Remark "gets" it; you test whether he accepts and understands Dr H's advice, and also, if he can see where he has been going wrong, and is still going wrong, with his own behaviour. When he doesn't accept the advice, or its application to his own situation, you argue about that, and things go downhill. Is that anywhere near correct?

I'm not saying that NO couple should discuss the show, but I think that you and Remark probably should not. It's his job to listen and to try to learn from the show. If he is learning and accepting the advice, this should show in his behaviour over time. If his behaviour does not change, then you make a decision on your future - but stop trying to educate him, or test him.

You or he wrote some weeks ago about having a 5-hour discussion about your marriage. That sounds horrendous. I can't think why you put yourselves through that, or start a discussion that you know could very well end up being 5 hours of frustration. I think you should stop discussing MB and what is working and not working in your marriage, and both concentrate on "doing" MB.

It's not working because you're not following it.

Markos WAS giving him flack. He needed it. We can do that, because we're not trying to make lovebank deposits. You cannot, though.

If it bothers you for him to use the words "giving flack," you should note that on a lovebuster form. But do not make the mistake of disrespectfully judging him for using those words (which is what you have done here).

The program does not work if you do not follow it.

Thanks for updating us, Day.

Do you know how long it has taken BOTH me and my husband to eliminate lovebusters? 3 years and counting. Finding Goodwill becomes easier and easier. Respect is regained gradually. Things start to click. Finally he is here working on it every day. Please don't judge his fakeness as lack of intent. It may seem that way but you have to start somewhere. You are not stupid for giving him a chance. You were vulnerable and got hurt. It's a good thing to give your son a chance to have an intact family.

My advice to keep things on course may have backfired. The goal is not to correct him but to let him know that things are becoming unpleasant. The smile is very important. It shows him that you have goodwill instead of laying in wait for him to mess up.

Maybe that's not the case....internet posting can be misunderstood. Hang in there Day. We are here for you. And your husband. It can get better.

Hugs and prayers to you JDD. Your story resonates with me for many reasons. Take care!!

I'm only here for a second, not to continue my thread, but I needed a place to post something -- my immeasurable thanks!

I just checked on Remark's thread to see what response he was getting regarding recent incidents. And what I read in the posts literally brought me to tears at my desk! The affirmation, empathy, understanding, and shared perspective, that *I* have indirectly received from the responses on *his* thread have provided me with more comfort and encouragement than I have *ever* gotten from Remark or anyone else, and at a time when I've needed it more than ever.

SugarCane, I already decided from your earlier posts that you're my sister-from-another-mother, and you're still batting a thousand. DidntQuit, you read like a "nicer" version of myself. And Sunnytimes, your explanation of how exhausting his communication style is, his wordy non-answers, was such a light in the darkness of my day that I had to read it three times. EVERYONE, has been so great!

I'm sorry for the seeming redundant nature of the issue. Just for clarification, this issue came up because Remark didn't POJA when, where, or what to tell his family about our separation, and opted to talk to them several weeks ago at a time when I couldn't listen to the conversation. He's been trickle-truthing the information since about what was said, and this topic came up on Sunday. While I agree the topic has been beat to death by the forum, it's still very much an elephant in the room for me, and a deal-breaker.

So while you might think your recent posts were a waste of time, they have not been. They've been an extraordinary boost to my depleted my self-esteem. The advice my H is receiving on this forum is more realistic, appropriate, and applicable than any counseling we've ever paid for. So thank you to everyone. Your advice may not save our M, but it is definitely helping us individually. THANK YOU!

(** Back to your regularly scheduled programming...)

JD2D, I'm very grateful to you for posting this, but could you just clear up a couple of things, please?

Have you said that you will not travel to see Remark's family? (A flat-out no?) I'm not asking in order to judge or criticise, but just to clarify.

And, was the email that we discussed today an attempt by you to understand and resolve the problem of their apparent dislike of you, so that the rift could be healed, and they could visit again?

Again, no criticism is intended. I just want us posters to be clear about what we are discussing. Thank you.

JD2D-

You asked Remark to post your email exchange to the forum to get our input. I need some clarification in order to help do that.

Can you answer these answer the questions below?


1. How would clarification from the siblings about their being "uncomfortable" help you to move forward?

2. Which type of help are you seeking from the forum?

-Opinions on whether you should send the emails or seek out clarification from siblings?

-Coaching for Remark?

-MB Advice about how to solve the in-law issue?


We really want to help you and Remark be able to put the family issues behind you and both move forward to a better place.

Ugh! I'm so torn! I do not want to get back into this, but I also sooo appreciate everyone's help and don't want to hinder. So hopefully I can address your questions and do a quick brain-dump, and then go dark again. I'll also continue the weekly LB lists and Remark can post those.

I well might have, even probably. At minimum, I would be willing to say it right now because Remark needs to make his decision based upon that very real possibility. I believe he's only on-board with it now because he believes it won't be like that forever.
It was an attempt to understand, period. I can't begin to say what I would have done with it because I still don't know what the answer is. It's possible the answer is that they simply don't like me and never will. What do I do with that? I honestly don't care if I ever have a relationship with them, so deciding whether or not I'd care to bother with trying to resolve it really depends upon the answer and what that would entail.

But it appears the world may never know...

Thanks Day.

Sorry I didn't see your post when I posted the questions above.

Day- I don't think that sharing that email with his family is a good idea. It won't accomplish anything positive.

Would you still be willing to answer my above questions?


P.S.-

I really do feel like I have walked in your shoes. My husband used to communicate just like yours does. It's a tough spot to be in. I wasn't as nice when I arrived here. I was fried and angry!

At this point, I don't honestly know if the siblings actually have a problem. Remark keeps bringing it up to me but never can explain "what" the problem is. I don't honestly know that they said anything, because once again Remark had the discussion without me. Or, he could still be feeding the problem and lying about not having detailed conversations with them. He obviously did so when he notified them of our separation. I thought forwarding the email discussion we had might show them that I am reasonable and considerate, and that Remark is putting very little effort into resolving anything if he can't even tell me specifically what the issue is when they supposedly just brought it up again. My FOO is SOOOOOO not like this, and I just can't stand this dysfunctional interaction. I'd much rather gut everyone and lay it all out on the table where everyone can see what everyone else is packing, and then we can ALL make an informed decision on how to move forward.

But that's just me.

At minimum, it might get Remark to shut-up about it and stop rubbing my nose in it because he wouldn't be able to BS around it anymore.

Option 4 - exactly what you did, which is what you all do so well. You point out things that he does that are wrong, things that carry no credibility when I point them out. You pick up where I left off when I just can't do it anymore.

I lost it when Remark immediately went into defense-mode after I told him to forward it to his siblings, making it all nice and safe for them, denying that he was blaming me. Sure enough, SugarCane pegged it, in detail. (I was actually disappointed that nobody noticed his very first sentence, "It has to do with her discomfort with my siblings," where he twisted the entire context of the exchange about his siblings' discomfort with me, back onto me. But I'll cut you some slack on that one. )

And Sunnytimes did an absolutely fantastic job of recognizing how unproductive his responses are (Sunny, please don't disappear!) and pointed out his non-answer verbosity and how exhausting it is for me. This is incredibly important to me because this is how our discussions with POJA go too, in which we can't even get past the first step of understanding the other person's position.

Plus, I thought the exchange was a good way for the forum to see how he actually interacts with me. He tells you he's doing what you say, but he's really not. For example, in response to my posted list of his LB's, he told you that, yes, he knew what he was supposed to do, but he failed to tell you that that's not what he did.

I hoped to be able to just take ONE THING off the table, but honestly, this issue is so much bigger than this one tiny aspect. Even if Remark says he's willing to cut ties with them, I simply don't believe him. This isn't only related to his immediate family. We've had conflict over continuing a relationship with his exBIL, who is of such low character that his own family has since disowned him, and conflict over going to his dead exFIL's funeral. When he was counseled before about how inappropriate his relationships were and that he needed to cut ties indefinitely, it lasted all of two months and he was reacting like a drug-addict needing a fix, taking it out on me. I don't think I'm up for risking that again.

I listened to the program today and I related so much to what Dr. Harley was saying about the way a woman carries herself when she's removed from her abusive husband vs. when she gets back with him. I'm such a different person when I'm not around him, dealing with this stuff. He's closing on his place next week and then he'll be out shortly thereafter. I'm so looking forward to it! What does that say about the potential for our future?

Anyway, thanks for allowing me to dump. I hope I've answered your questions adequately. I'm signing off but I'll send Remark my list of LB's at the end of the week and he can post them if he wants.

Thanks again to everyone!

Thanks so much Day! I had wanted to post something to him today, but didn't since everyone complained of too much discussion. Thanks again for clarifying so that things don't get more complicated than they need to be.

All of our perspectives may be helpful, but if they are off track, they will do nothing but make the situation worse.

OR



So which is your plan, Day? Did you guys discuss your dating other people?

We did discuss it. I did NOT say I wanted to date other people.

I did say I realize how vulnerable I am. I did say that he could date because I don't believe I will ever be able to fill the role he has in mind for his wife. I tried and failed and will never have that enthusiasm/energy again, and am not even interested in attempting to accomplish what he has demonstrated regarding his expectations.

What has he said that he expects?