All I can say is my heart goes out to you. I am similar to your husband but with some major differences. I am 55 and divorced and sex was never enjoyable for me from day 1. I stayed a virgin until I married at age 30. I had a very dysfunctional childhood and I believe it led to me not being very capable of emotional or physical intimacy. My emotions are very flat. Like your husband I can do great at saying loving things, doing things for my spouse, etc, but am darn near a zero when it comes to physical or emotional intimacy.

I am not comfortable having sex. Too intimate for me. Plus sex for me is like eating. I eat when I am hungry but food to me is just fuel. I don't like to spend a lot of time preparing meals and don't particularly enjoy food. It's just fuel. When I need sexual release I'd prefer to masturbate. Quick and easy and no need to involve someone else. I have almost no libido and sex does nothing for me. You two enjoyed it once though whereas I never have so something has changed.

I am in a serious relationship but have been totally upfront about all this and told her if we marry I don't want sex. If she needs it then I will do my best to help out but can't totally fake having interest and will never seek anything out of it sexually for myself. I want her to know all that prior to marriage so there are no surprises. If that won't work for her then I completely understand and she can look for a better match.

I hope though you two can get something going again as you are married and love each other.

So, are you saying that you have a high need for affection but a low need for SF? Or do you not need affection, either? A romantic relationship is all about meeting the other person's emotional needs. So, if your point is that you have no intention of meeting the emotional needs of others that you don't think are important to you, then why marry? Why put somebody else through that?

My own need for affection is low. For me the sole reason to marry would be companionship. For her it is much the same. She wants a little affection and sex maybe twice a month. She is fine with sex being a non-event for me. Neither one of us is high on the romance scale. I DO try to meet her emotional needs and am willing to have sex but I won't get aroused by it. Nothing will happen for me. Nothing I can do about that. I've had my testosterone checked. At first it was very low but then I got on a cream and now it's pretty high. I've felt no different.

If I didn't have a problem with just living together then that would be my preference.

How often are you masturbating? Do you ever use porn?

I don't masturbate too often. No desire. Porn does nothing for me so no. This is not about too much masturbation or porn. I just don't like the physical closeness of sex. Sex seems animalistic. I don't find it beautiful or meaningful. It seems like much ado about nothing.

Rom838,

No offense to you at all, but to me, total lack of desire signals some type of issue, be it physical or something else, and as a wife if I discovered that my husband with a low desire was "taking care of it himself" or watching porn, instead of sharing the rare moments with me, you cannot imagine how hurt I would be. I would encourage you to save any desire you may have for your partner. I would also say that unless you totally refrain from masturbation and porn you cannot say that it is not effecting your desire. Your comment that it's "quick and easy" makes me think that it likely is.

I've never known a man who engages in this behavior who actually thinks if effects their desire until they have totally stopped doing these thing.

rom838-
Would you be willing to start your own thread? I don't feel like I can address you in the middle of someone else's.

Thanks!

All true.

Oh I have stopped for long periods of time (months) with no effect. I can't even masturbate successfully half the time. I've discussed this at length with my counselor and we both agree this is who I am and not likely to change. Honestly I have no desire to change not that I think I can. I am comfortable with the way I am.


I have been totally upfront about this with my fiance. She has every right to want me to "share the rare moments" with her. I want her to understand this is who I am and if that is not going to work for her then I understand and she should find someone else. Am I willing to lose the relationship over this? Yes. I will sacrifice in many areas but this one is just too uncomfortable for me.

You want to share in those rare moments (hypothetically) because sex means something to you. You would be hurt either because you want to share those moments or have your own needs or ?. From the very first time I had sex until this day I have never enjoyed it. It has never felt particularly meaningful. I lack the emotions others associate with sex. It does not make me feel closer to my spouse or like I am sharing something special. That was true 25 years ago when I first had sex as a virgin after my wedding.

My childhood robbed me of so many emotions (or buried them so deep they never see the light of day). I don't get excited, passionate, real happy, etc. I am mostly numb. So why would sex be meaningful? When you lack most emotions then it's just a mindless physical act and I'm not into physical pleasure. I'd rather go on a 3 hour bike ride and trash myself then get a massage. In fact the only massages I will get are the super deep tissue wants that have you squirming the whole time but are effective in removing the knots. I don't care for the feel good ones.

It sounds harsh but while I love her I can't be someone I'm not in the area of sex. She has every right to walk if that won't work for her. We are not yet married and I am taking a lot of time as I want her to really think about all this.

Bottom line is I'm tired of trying to have desire, enjoy sex, etc. She seems to think that's all ok. I am fine with staying single if that is a show stopper for everyone. Not that I want to be single but I'm realistic and know that would be a show stopper for most women.

Then why get married at all? If all you want is companionship, then get a male roommate.

What if I prefer female companionship? Marriage is far more than sex or even affection. I like to cuddle, hold hands, hug, etc. What if you were married and one of you suffered a terrible accident or health issue that prevented you from having sex? Surely that would not be the end of your marriage.

We want to travel together and be together without always having to book separate rooms and keep separate houses.

Would you approve of a man and woman living under the same roof and sharing hotel rooms while not being married (assuming no sex)?

Rom-
I am very impressed that you own your lack in some areas. It's also very good that you are being radically honest with your girlfriend about it.

You obviously have a lot to offer to her as a friend.

You are super smart for posting here for help.

I lived for a long time with my best friend who had some of your same issues (he didn't see). I hope that you will take seriously what I am going to suggest.

1. Read Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders by Dr. Harley
2. THEN email Dr. Harley (mbradio@marriagebuilders.com) about your dilemma. Please give Bill and Joyce your phone number in the email.

Most people can't relate to your tendencies. Left unchecked, those characteristics will make any marriage unsustainable. Having read your comments here, I would say that you are on the right track and can eventually marry this lady. But please do these two things first.

Are you willing?

You are talking about entirely different things. When a spouse is injured or has a health issue and CANT meet the others needs, the other spouse usually does not mind. But when a spouse WON'T meet the others needs because of a lack of interest, whatever, resentment ensues.

So no, it wouldn't END my marriage, but I wouldn't marry someone who wouldn't meet my needs. People fall in love and select people who can best meet their needs. They don't typically marry someone who WON'T meet their needs.

And I don't agree that you have NO EN for sex. You wouldn't be masturbating if you didn't. You may have a low EN for sex, but it is not a matter of no need. If you were married, Dr Harley would advise you to stop masturbating altogether and NEVER get this need met outside of your marriage.

If I were you, I would write Dr Harley at the radio station and get his perspective. Instructions here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

I bought the Kindle version of the book and will read it. Then I will decide on emailing him.

Thanks for the recommendations!

Sure which is why I am really emphasizing to her that I won't meet that need of hers (she claims it is not much of a need). However whenever I bring this up she thinks I am trying to push her away. I am not trying to push her away but I want her to be REALLY sure she will be ok with this arrangement.

I am a very giving person and do many things for her. Sex though is just too much for me. I have an aversion to it. I don't enjoy it and worse find it unpleasant. I am willing though to do whatever she wants to meet her needs. I just won't get anything out of it except knowing that I am meeting a need of hers. She does not like to initiate and asked that twice a month I initiate sex. I try but it's never on my mind. When I do she fairly quickly gets what she needs and then sex is over with. I don't make any attempt to try for something for me as I can feel it won't happen.

So she has to decide if that's enough for her.

That would never work for me. If I had to limit myself to only getting my occasional need met in marriage I would never get married. I am very uncomfortable with sex. I don't want to have it anymore than I have to. I will do it for her sake but I'm not going to add to that by also doing it for my sake. It doesn't work anyhow. I simply cannot relax and enjoy sex.

Your marriage is heading for disaster.

Please do not marry that woman. She is agreeing to give up on something that is a normal need in marriage - and which is bound to be a need for her at some level - just to be married to you. She is not agreeing to this because she has fallen in love with a man with a disability (for example), but because you do not want to meet what will inevitably be her need for sexual fulfilment.

Women might not value SF as highly on the list as men, typically, but women do wish to have sexual fulfilment in marriage. And also, if you were disabled, that would not necessarily mean that you could not have sex. Sex can be had in ways that do not involved intercourse, if a disabled partner is willing to meet the need. You are not willing to meet the need, and indeed, express an aversion to sex. It is not fair to accept her goodwill today. She does not know how this will make her feel tomorrow.

Nobody should get married on the basis that they rule out the meeting of the other's needs, even if the other claims to be willing to give up that need.

This most intimate of all emotional needs should ONLY be met in marriage. If you refuse to abide by that ideal, then you absolutely should not get married, ever.

Just to clarify I am willing to meet her need by engaging in sex when she needs it. It won't be a mutual enjoyment although I would do nothing to detract from her enjoyment. It's not something I will seek out for myself but will always be willing for her sake.

So she is not agreeing to give up sex. She said in some ways it's a relief as in the past she's had the opposite problem of men who want sex way more than she does. She has always met their needs but this way she can have sex when she wants to and not have to the rest of the time. She said once or twice a month is all she needs.

That said I think women want to be wanted even if they don't want to have sex all the time. Being with someone who never "wants" you could be troubling. I think she's gorgeous and sexy but that is a thought in my mind and it does not translate into sexual desire. I tell her all the time how beautiful or sexy she is. I do notice but again it does not stir anything sexual inside me.

She might say that all of that is "a relief" right now, but, I could really see a point coming where she is not ok with it. Not necessity the frequency part of it, but the fact that you are only having sex because she wants to and because you have made it so clear that you do not like, or have any desire to like it.

I can tell you that that is NOT something I would ok with as a wife. If my husband said I will have sex with you just because you need me to, but I do not like it, and actually have an aversion to it, I would not feel any better than I do now with the lack of sex.

Sex for most women is, mostly, about the emotional connection that it creates. You have said over and over that it "does nothing" for you. That WILL get to her after a while, even if she doesn't realize it now.
To me, it would be like having an important conversation with my husband only half listening to me, in the beginning, that might be ok, but if he does it often enough it's going to really hurt me, and make me not want to have conversations with him at all.
If my husband says "having sex with you does nothing for me, but I'll do it anyway" why would I want to do it?

Well I would say it's very unlikely. It sounds perfectly awful quite frankly.

No wonder she cuts you off when you speak of it. Just hearing you talking about it sounds unloving.


Yes women loathe being pestered for sex by a man with a higher drive. That's because it's not a mutual meeting of minds and feelings being expressed physically which makes it gross and animalistic. I copy your description here because I agree heartily with it. That's what sex is like when it isn't mutual or emotional.

Men (even you) can mistakenly view it as acceptable in physical release form only. They come to the woman wanting that generosity and in the beginning she is willing, but ultimately she can't escape looking at the facts. What is generous for one partner is selfish for the other - unless it's equal. Over time she gets a sexual aversion and dislikes it more and more.

In fact, I wonder if you have one as it certainly affects men too. A willingness to loan out your body selflessly and give it up to a higher drive partner creates aversion. You have that tendency and any masturbation in your past implies that you have low drive, rather then no drive. Abuse of your drive through reluctant sex would have driven it lower still.

In either case, the giving of your body to a higher drive creates untold misery in marriage. The high drive person is made to feel like an unloveable, lusting monster and the lower gets steadily sick and bored of being a rentabody. However selfless you both feel now, this is inevitable.

Dr H would have some amazing advice on how to proceed though, I'm sure. There are a number of more preferable methods to scheduling in twice monthly reluctant sex.

This is his field of expertise and his advice is free.

Most women don't initiate sex. Do you know why? This is a situation where she is going to have to nag and remind. Not good!

]

What I meant to say is if I had to limit my occasional need with my spouse (as opposed to solo) then I would never get married. For me personally it is not an emotional need. It is purely a physical need. I'll grant it should not be that way but given my lack of emotions it's not surprising. However I have had very little sex in my life. I never slept around or hooked up with women just for sex. Morally I could not do that. I would rather masturbate then hook up with some random woman besides which nothing would happen. I would be feeling so guilty and be so uptight I'd never have success. Under the best and proper situation I can't so with a random stranger it would never even come close to happening. So I am not a guy who just wants sex but no affection or closeness. I just don't want sex and can find affection and closeness through other avenues like non-sexual contact.

Trust me when we discuss it I chose my words very carefully. I am being more blunt here.

I had the opposite situation in my first marriage. My ex-wife turned out to have an aversion to sex. She wanted to get it over with as quickly as possible and never got anything out of it. She didn't say anything but I could sense it. Years later she admitted she hated sex but wanted to have children. I did not find it all that stimulating but was still young enough that even in that situation could get release. We were married for 19 years so that's a long time to go without meaningful sex. The last 8 years there was no sex. I was the one who felt like a creep having to ask for sex and then being put off and finally scheduled. The thing is I rarely asked. Maybe once a month at best. Despite that she later said I wanted sex all the time. Toward the end of the marriage she would not undress in my presence and took showers in the dark in case I walked in. She would not enter the bathroom if I was showering.

So in addition to my traumatic childhood I stayed a virgin until I married and then married a woman who hated sex so I have never experienced the kind of emotional sex you all describe. I don't think I was ever capable of it but who knows if things had been different in that marriage. I'll never know.

I can't say I know why other than tradition or already getting more than they want. Or possibly to feel wanted.

It is much more than just not getting anything out of it. You find it unpleasant and that is a critical issue becuase people don't do things they find unpleasant for long. After a while you will stop doing it altogether. If you continue doing something for which you have an "aversion" pretty soon that aversion will grow to many other things about her.

You wouldn't be doing her any favors by inviting her into such a bad situation. IT is a set up for resentment.

Agree 100% that you shouldnt' get married.

You have developed a sexual aversion through forcing yourself to have sex in a way that does not give you pleasure. Each time you force yourself it will get a little worse until it results in total non performance. This is more common for women but it occasionally happens to men too.

Dr Harley has a fantastic series of steps that you can use to overcome this if you wish. It is written for women but not that hard to 'translate'. It is here overcoming sexual aversion but I agree with the others that you should first contact Dr Harley and discuss this. You may prefer not to tackle this problem.

It is much more than just not getting anything out of it. You find it unpleasant and that is a critical issue becuase people don't do things they find unpleasant for long. After a while you will stop doing it altogether. If you continue doing something for which you have an "aversion" pretty soon that aversion will grow to many other things about her.

You wouldn't be doing her any favors by inviting her into such a bad situation. IT is a set up for resentment. [/quote]

I share your concern but I think the only way to resolve this is to tell her I won't marry her as I don't think I can be a true husband to her. We could be friends or even roommates but not married. I think she will be crushed and no telling what she will do. I would be breaking off our engagement in doing so. She would be very hurt saying she already is aware of all this and said she is ok with it. I believe she would think I was using this as an excuse to reject her for some other reason.

She will be giving it up entirely, though, when you stop meeting that need. She should not expect you to do something you characterize as "unpleasant" and for which you have an aversion. Pretty soon you will stop meeting that need entirely because people don't do unpleasant things for long. They stop doing it after awhile.

But I do think you are correct to discuss these things before she gets trapped in a bad marriage. You shouldnt' marry anyone given that you won't meet her EN's and intend on getting your own EN met outside of marriage. That pretty much disqualifies you for marriage.

Hoping you show her this thread in the interest of transparency.

Very much agree that is the ethical thing to do. You would help her further by not agreeing to be roommates, because it will harder for her to find a suitable mate living with you.

I don't think of my physical need for release as an emotional need. So for me I would be not "getting [my] own EN met outside of marriage." I don't have an EN in that department.

Sexual fulfillment is an emotional need. You can call it a physical need if you want. However, that need should not be met outside of marriage.

I agree however what if you aren't marriage material and yet don't have the gift of celibacy? Trust me I would like to just be celibate.

I would say that that does not seem entirely true. I would consider actual celibacy a refrain from all sexual activity, including masturbation, which you choose not to refrain from. You would prefer to not engage in sexual activity with another person. I do not see that as celibacy, just your current preference, for whatever reason, of how you like your SF need met.

I really hope you will email Dr. Harley, he would be so helpful!

Well, the answer is NOT to marry someone selfishly - someone about whom you have no sexual feelings whatsoever.

Do not marry someone who has a reasonable expectation of sexual fulfilment, and extract a promise from her in advance that she will give up sexual fulfilment and never complain to you about it.

Do not marry someone who has normal feelings about sexuality, when you do not have normal feelings about it, and ask her to change for you.

Do not marry someone when you know you are not marriage material.

It sounds highly likely that sex with a reluctant partner, feeling like a creep every single time, created a similar aversion in you.

Negative experience creates aversion. You could reverse this aversion with positive experiences and enjoy emotional sex with Dr H methods.

Certainly don't do the same thing to your fiance and expose her to unpleasant, unemotional sex. Your aversion would get worse and she would probably develop one too.

Why not email him?

It sounds highly likely that sex with a reluctant partner, feeling like a creep every single time, created a similar aversion in you.

Negative experience creates aversion. You could reverse this aversion with positive experiences and enjoy emotional sex with Dr H methods.

Certainly don't do the same thing to your fiance and expose her to unpleasant, unemotional sex. Your aversion would get worse and she would probably develop one too.

Why not email him?

Then don't get married.

We had a good discussion about this last night and she is a lot like me. She said her first impressions of sex were "this is it?" In other words why so much hype. It was ok and the last 5 seconds were great but otherwise hardly worth all the hype. She says it does not bother her that I am the way I am because she understands why and her needs are so minor that it's just not an issue with her.

So I think we will be ok. It would be different if one of us wanted more. I believe she is being sincere and not just saying those things for my sake.

I see no reason to email Dr. Harley as I am perfectly happy the way I am and so is my fiance. To change you have to want to change and I don't. I think he has a lot of great insights but he lacks a Biblical perspective which is the one deficiency I find in his teaching. That for me is a big deal.

Lol, you aren't very familiar with MB if you think Dr. Harley lacks a Biblical perceptive. Have you read his book "Lets Get Growing, Christians?"

I do confess I have not read a lot of his works but the book I am reading now has nothing in it about the Biblical definition of marriage.

His bio touts his secular degrees and practice but says nothing about being a Christian. I would think that would be fire and foremost in his bio.

You should probably read more here. It is terribly obvious.

Why? He certainly doesn't hide his faith.

Which book are you reading? In his intro he talks about counseling His pastor's wife.

He also quotes scripture on the radio show when other Christians question his principles, like Ephesians regarding the exposure of affairs. He also wrote a book called defending traditional marriage.

Curious, what is a biblical definition of marriage mean to you?

I have to say, I'm a little concerned that you don't see his biblical perspective, it is very, very obvious if you listen to him talk at all, that he is a born again, practicing Christian. I would guess he doesn't put it foremost in his bio because there are a great many people who would brush right past all of his work if the first thing he said was "I'm a Christian" You can't always reach the masses you want to reach by bashing them over the head with your own personal faith. I personally, would not have nearly as much faith as I do in MB if his beliefs were not so evident to me.

I would still strongly encourage you to email him. I know what your fiances is saying to you, but, my concern would be, as I said before, that she doesn't really understand that this is a forever thing, and she does not understand how strongly you seem to disdain sex. There is no way a women is going to forever be ok with, "I hate sex, but I'll do it just for you, but I will get nothing out of it, because I hate it". It's not that you don't need it very often, it's that you have basically said you "hate it". That will either eventually cause guilt in her for "making you" do it, or resentment in you for her "making you" do it.

Compromising on this issue on either of your parts is not going to make for a lasting marriage. It's going to lead to great resentment for one, or both of you.

Sorry if I questioned his faith. That was not my intent and clearly I am not as familiar with him as you are. I once asked Focus on the Family for a referral to a Christian counselor in my area. They recommended a gentlemen who I went to see. He asked me about my past counseling experiences and I had always seen either pastors or counselors with a masters degree. He proudly said that he had a Phd and I was going to see what difference a Phd made! All the materials he used with me were 100% secular. Other than paraphrasing a few Scriptures at times he never prayed with me, appealed to the Bible, etc. Finally he wanted me to try hypnosis and that's when I bailed on him.

I don't think Dr. Harley stating he was a Christian in his bio would be hitting people over the head with his faith. He would not have to say a lot about it but in his shoes I would not be afraid to say I counsel on Biblical principles. It might turn some off but for those it helps it would be clear that the solutions are found in God's Word.

I have no doubt if I called him he would strongly exhort me not to marry. I think that would be all he could say. I am in no hurry to marry and plan to give this enough time to make sure.

When I first found this site I thought it was Dr. Larry Crabb who wrote the book "The Marriage Builder." Wonder if he and Dr. Harley know each other?

I was here for a while before I realized he was a Christian too. That's because his basic concepts are formed on Scientific principles and he tends to base his methods on the evidence. Very many articles mention his faith though, as well as the Christian books he has written.

I think he fronts his scientific credentials because he is a scientist not a man of the cloth. As a psychiatrist it's important people know that your practice is based on success rates. Dr H also believes it is disrespectful to tell people what to believe. He'd rather focus on the proven consequences of foolish behaviour.

The proven methods align perfectly with his own beliefs (which he does mention a lot when you become familiar with him). They are integrated into all of the principles.

For example, in your situation, he would counsel an avoidance of sacrifice and reluctant sex. "God loves a cheerful giver". I'm sure he's also terribly well versed on the scriptural focus on physical love within marriage. He usually is when asked scriptural questions.

You may be thinking of the biblical advice not to deprive your partner, but he would tell you that's exactly what is going to happen if you ignore a mounting aversion. You have to be willing to join body and soul.

And of course, sexual experience of any kind without each other is taboo. Not hard to see where he got that mandate from, and its not solely his clinical experience.

He has said in that aversion article there are some happy sexless couples, but that they are a rarity. I don't think the two of you qualify for that description or your fiance wouldnt request initiation and you wouldn't require masturbation. I think the danger of moving on to new partners once you've exacerbated aversions with each other are there - but why not ask the expert?

For some people, the simple mention that "I'm a Christian" does immediately make them discount a persons work. I think their belief is "he's a christian, all he is going to say is put God at the center of your marriage and all will be well". which, of course, is not what Dr. Harley says. God should be at the center of your marriage, yes, but if you claim that and treat your spouse horribly, you end up with big time troubles. He certainly doesn't hide the fact that he is a Christian, but, I would think, that he wants to help as many people as he can be happy, so he does not see the benefit in making it a "main point" in his bio.

I think you are right that he would say at this point, you should not get married, however, I'm am certain that is not all he would say. I think if you explained everything, he would say, as someone did a few posts back, that you have an aversion that was created through your previous experience, and that if you want to, that can be overcome, and you can enjoy a sexual relationship with your wife. If you don't want to change that, then you are right. I do think he would tell you to not marry someone that has any type of SF need at all, as just about all women do.

Highly unlikely. I've heard him say only the mentally ill are automatically debarred from marriage. Anybody else can choose to be a good spouse if they want to.

The only reason you are being told not to marry is because you do not wish to meet your spouses needs in a way that makes you happy too.

You could learn how, it is your choice.

Read his book, written with his wife, Draw Close.

"Achieve a deeper relationship with God and with each other!
In our rushed and busy world, time is at a premium -- and quality time spent with God and with your spouse is often a casualty. Nothing can bring you closer to both God and each other quite like sharing a daily devotional time together. Now Willard F. Harley, Jr., bestselling author of His Needs, Her Needs, joins with his wife, Joyce, to provide a devotional guide to deeper intimacy with God and with your spouse.

Perfect for newlyweds as well as those who have been married for decades, this devotional promises to help you connect with your spouse, build a stronger marriage, and keep God at the center of your commitment to each other."

Available from the bookstore: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6029_dc.html

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