Apologies for the long initial post that follows. I wanted to get some relevant background information out of the way up front. Feel free to skip to questions 1)-4) at the bottom if you don't want to read the background info!

My wife and I are both 36, have known each other for 15 years, and have been married for 13 years. We have three children, ages 1, 3, and 6.

The first ~6 years of our marriage were pretty good. We're both home-bodies with limited need for social relationships outside the marriage, and so we spent almost all our non-work time together, presumably meeting each other's EN's. We got along well most of the time. But a year or two before we started having children, our intimacy began to dwindle. The dwindling intensified rapidly when the kids came along. We still got along well overall, but affection was pretty rare (from either of us), and SF occurred no more frequently than once every 1-3 months. After the birth of our last child it was at least 6 months before SF.

We've been going on like that for around 7 years now. Occasionally over that time my wife would make a comment about how she thought it was a little sad that we never kissed anymore, or that our relationsihp was starting to feel too platonic. Stubborn fool that I am, I defensively dismissed her concerns as though they didn't matter. (Now I realize this was a MAJOR DJ, and it's causing problems to this day). The crazy thing is, I was also aware of the growing emotional gulf between us, and yet for some reason it didn't really bother me. Life was sometimes very stressful due to the kids, and I just assumed that it was normal to grow apart from your spouse in those circumstances. C'est la vie, I figured.

Not long ago I happened to come across the MB site when searching for something else. After reading through all the materials, I had an epiphany: I had been neglecting my wife's EN's for years (sadly it has become mutual neglect). We're both primed to have an affair, even though we would both deny that such a thing would ever be possible.

After quite a bit of introspection, the guilt over this hit me like a ton of bricks. I could hardly believe that I carelessly dismissed her concerns, especially over such an important issue. It took me around five years longer than my wife to realize that our lost intimacy was a major risk to our marriage. And during those five years I just neglected her in blissful ignorance.

Upon this realization, I made a commitment to myself to eliminate LB's, replenish my wife's Love Bank (assuming it is still open to me), and keep it full to the best of my ability. I was very excited to put my plan into action, and she realized pretty quickly that something was up when I abruptly started caring more for my appearance, complimenting her, offering hugs, getting up early to make breakfast for her, asking if we could set up more dates, etc. I came clean and told her about MB, and my commitment to start meeting her EN's so that we could improve our relationship and regain our intimacy.

I was a little surprised when her reaction wasn't overly positive. She said that she appreciated that I wanted to make an effort, but was skeptical about why I would bother starting now. When I told her about my feelings of guilt about the years of neglect, she expressed resentment that I hadn't listened to her in the first place -- that I never listen to her and don't respect her opinion when making decisions. This put a damper on my enthusiasm, and I got a little defensive about it. But after some introspection, I realize that she is absolutely correct. I've always dismissed her views, either directly, or more often by attempting to provide endless logical reasons why my way is superior. How could I be such an idiot about this for so long??

Still, she let me know that she appreciated my efforts. I convinced her it would be a good idea to fill out the EN questionnaire to give me a better idea how I can meet her needs. She agreed, and we actually both filled it out. For the past month or so we've been making an effort to meet the top five EN's, and especially the more intimate needs. Amazingly, 4/5 of our top 5 needs are the same, which makes it a bit easier.

Now to some questions...

My wife isn't sold on some of the aspects of the MB program. In particular:

1) She doesn't think 15 hours UA per week is necessary, and I don't think she likes me pushing this issue. In her defense, it's going to be quite difficult financially and schedule wise to pull it off. Prior to MB we would go out once every couple months. I've worked that up to once per week (occasionally twice!), but still only 4-6 hours weekly. I don't want to LB her on this with a DJ, so should I back off on the 15 hour a week requirement for now?. I think I can gradually work up the number of hours without causing resentment, and when school starts next fall I think we'll be able to make the 15 hours then.

2) She doesn't agree with some of the MB ideas. In particular she was highly skeptical of the POJA, since it will simply enable my controlling tendencies (in her words). On the contrary, I think the POJA will actually provide a way to have her voice heard and respected. But I don't want to argue and LB her. When and/or how should I try to get her on board with things like POJA? How can I make the program more appealing to her?

3) She likes some aspects of MB, but she's ambivalent because she sees it as yet another issue where I got my way (i.e., selecting the MB program) while ignoring her opinion (i.e., brushing off her attempts to bring our issues to my attention years ago).. How can I make her see that MB is a good thing for us despite the fact that it was my idea?

4) Finally, she admits that sometimes the act of meeting EN's according to a list/questionnaire -- -- both giving and receiving -- feels like artificial exercise rather than a genuine/spontaneous expression of care. I definitely see her point, though I do believe that love bank deposits are still being made either way. How can I convince her that my deposits are sincere? How can I (or should I) encourage her to try to meet my EN's as well, even if she feels like it's artificial sometimes?

See if you can persuade her to go on the radio show and put her doubts to Dr Harley. He will convince her like nobody else can.

Welcome to MB.

SugarCane, thank you for the welcome and the idea. I'll certainly consider it. I'm going to have to figure out a way to work around her reflexive resentment toward things that I propose on this topic. To her it might seem like yet another example of me deciding what's best for us without considering her opinion.

SeekMore, It is good that you are doing this at 13 years and not waiting 27 like I have. I too was floored by what I learned from reading the MB pages. I haven't presented it to W yet because her only request to me was to Back Off and let her sort out her feelings. I'm afraid that bringing it up with DJ and set us back further.

Good luck. The veterans here have great input. I only wish I had looked and found this earlier.

Thanks Scotty. The simple fact that we're here ('we' meaning anyone reading these forums) probably means all of us wish we had paid attention earlier in our marriages.

I haven't yet broached the idea of going on the MB radio show with my W. Things are going pretty well at the moment -- we're getting better at mutually meeting EN's, avoiding LB's, and learning to express complaints respectfully and not become defensive when hearing a complaint. But my W occasionally expresses skepticism -- at times bordering on outright hostility -- if I bring up something specific about the MB program. Especially the POJA. So for now my strategy is to soften her heart on this a bit by letting my actions speak for themselves. Eventually I hope we reach a place where I can make a case for following the whole MB program without upsetting her.

For now, I have a specific POJA-related issue that I would love to get some feedback on. My W has a personal bucket list -- things she wants to accomplish before a certain age. One of those things is to get a body piercing that she's wanted since she was a teenager. Unfortunately I find that particular piercing quite unattractive, and for me it also has negative connotations regarding people from my past (including a previous romantic partner).

The other day my W brought up this piercing, and it turned into an unpleasant conversation for us. I told her as respectfully as I could that, while I understood it was something that would make her happy, I also thought that it would make me unhappy (for the reasons I mentioned above). She was clearly irritated with me about this, and told me it felt controlling, and that "when it comes to my body, I should be able to do what I want to make myself happy with my appearance." I told her it wasn't about control, and tried to explain that while I want her to be happy, I don't think it's healthy for our marriage when one person gains at the other person's expense.

She immediately recognized this line of reasoning as part of the POJA, and she quickly became defensive (and a little angry). She repeated that the POJA seems like a mealy-mouthed way of condoning and enabling controlling behavior, and that every time I start going down that path it makes the entire MB program seem "skeevy" to her and she feels like rejecting all of it.

I backed off pretty quickly. I did tell her in a heartfelt way that I'm motivated by a desire to improve our marriage in a lasting way -- not by a desire to control her. Her response was basically "Fine, I don't want to talk about this anymore. I get it -- you don't like it, and I won't get the piercing." Of course this felt like she was capitulating to me, and doing so in a resentful, not a cheerful (or even accepting) way.

Does anyone have any advice on how to proceed from here? I'm wary of bringing up MB/POJA again too soon. My wife can be very willful, and I could see her holding a grudge against MB. That would certainly make my efforts at restoring our marriage quite difficult. All I can think of is to keep an eye out for situations where she can benefit from the POJA, and maybe she'll start to view it as a helpful tool rather than a limiting/controlling one.

In my mind it boils down to her not wanting to acknowledge that selfish behavior can be harmful to a spouse and to a marriage. Of course I would be asking for trouble if I put it to her like that!

Calling your wife willful is a disrespectful judgement. You need to follow MB If you want to sell it to your wife.

Can you brainstorm a solution with her? Like a body modification that would make both of you happy.

Thanks for pointing that out. I did hesitate when using that word, but I decided to use it for two reasons: 1) I didn't feel like it was a DJ when she uses the same word to describe herself, and 2) I thought it was relevant to describe my W's state of mind/behavior when I'm soliciting advice on how to deal with the POJA (and her reaction to it).

But you're right -- I need to be more careful to avoid DJ's (or even the appearance of being judgmental!), and I thank you for your reminder.

She has a right to her own thoughts and opinions -- a will. Evenshe uses it herself, it is disrespectful for you to say it. Kind of like I can call myself fat but my husband shouldn't say that.

Yes, I'd like to do this kind of brainstorming. She was angry when the discussion ended, so I'll have to think of a way to bring it up again without reminding her of her anger and soliciting a negative emotional reaction to the topic.

This might be a good topic to bring up in a letter (e-mail), where we can avoid some of the emotional pitfalls that can arise in a face-to-face talk.

Yes, I think you are supposed to walk away when negotiation gets heated. After things have had a chance to cool off, an email might be the best way to re-open discussion.

Of course we all have a will. That is distinct from the meaning of 'willful' though. I'm not going to quote the definition of willful that I had in mind, because reading it makes me realize that it's not something I would want my W to use to describe me -- even if it were true and if I'd used that word to describe myself.

Don't waste time arguing with me about the definition of a word.

Spend your time brainstorming solutions.

I assume you're talking about your own time being wasted -- in which case I apologize. I didn't realize I was coming across as argumentative.

I appreciate your helpful suggestions. But I'm afraid I'm a stickler for clear communication, and asynchronous conversations like message boards can be particularly challenging when misunderstandings about the meaning of words arise.

If you're willing to tolerate my pedantic nature, I'd very much appreciate your continued contributions to my thread!

Well I guess you're talking about my own time being wasted after all. You're right -- brainstorming constructive solutions would probably be a better use of my time. But in the future I reserve the right to be the final judge of what is a good use of my time.

I am rarely at my desk so I usually keep posts short.

All definitions of "willful" are disrespectful judgements when applied to one's spouse. It is a term most commonly used for disobedient children; since your wife has no obligation to obey you, she is NOT willful. She is an adult with the right to her own perspective and choice of actions. Those actions may build the marriage or not. You have the same rights.

You are the one seeking advice; accordingly, our suggestions are aimed at you. So have you have you come up with any alternative suggestons that might appeal to your wife?

Some ideas I could propose:

• Get a different piercing/tattoo/etc. that we both like (thanks apples123!)
• Get a faux piercing/clip-on/etc., and wear it for a while. Maybe seeing her wear it will change my preconceptions and I'll drop my objection to it.

Those are the only compromises I've been able to come up with. If anyone thinks of others I may have overlooked, please chime in!

BTW you can do POJA without saying "Let's apply POJA."

Are there any activities that you do that your wife has expressed displeasure with? If so, take the lead. Stop those behaviors now and brainstorm solutions that might please you both. I suspect your wife is sceptical of MB because you have directed your discussions at her behavior.