Good, now how would you start the converstion with your wife?

Good to know -- that will help me interpret your posts as merely being short -- not short on patience.

We need a little context here. The definition I was using is this:

I never asked my wife to obey me, and in my opinion there's nothing in this definition that would exclude its use in describing an adult's behavior. Regardless, I do understand that using a word like 'willful' is disrespectful. Let me rephrase what I was trying to say thusly:

Due to her stated discomfort with the POJA, I fear that my wife may close her mind to MB even though she has acknowledged that following other aspects of it is making a noticeable improvement in our marriage. My fear is not simply paranoia, since she outright told me that she might reject all of MB based solely on her distaste for the POJA.

Of course! I could also say that I'm free to not meet my wife's EN's if I don't feel like it, and that will lead to undesireable outcomes as well. Do I correctly understand that your point is simply that it would be a DJ to refer to my behavior as "thoughtless and careless", for example? If so, I hear you loud and clearly.

See now why I said it was a waste of time? Now you are expending mental energies at arguing linguistics with me rather than pursuing agreement with your wife. Do you ever have this sort of conversation with your wife?

Calling someone "willful" is a way of dismissing that person's concerns. It doesn't matter what the definition in the dictionary is, although yours is not the Merriam-Webster definition of the word. Also in the M-W dictionary, the examples of common usage are a child and disobedience.

You mentioned in your first post that you have a problem with DJ.

That is an excellent point, and I think a more subtle approach will work better with my wife. Of course, when I tried this the other day, it was she who immediately recognized it as the POJA and became irritated.

Yes, and I've stopped those behaviors. However, because my "state of mind in marriage" is intimacy -- and because I want to bend over backwards to please my wife in an effort to convince her I've changed -- I find that I'm most frequently simply sacrificing to do things to make her happy. Priming the pump. This doesn't bother me (yet?), and it's having the desired effect (she frequently expresses how happy she is as a result of my behavior). However, it's not really the POJA.

The focus of MB principles in our marriage has been mostly on me eliminating LB's. We have also been working on meeting each other's EN's. But this is the first case I can think of where it probably felt to her like she was being asked to do something other than what she wanted to do. In Dr. Harley's parlance, maybe her 'Taker' is still in charge?

When she noticed POJA, were you focusing on her not doing what she wanted or on an alternative that could make both happy?

I guess we'll have to just disagree on this and call it a day. I didn't (and don't) feel like it is irritating or a waste of time to get on the same page when it comes to communicating about an important issue -- even if the source of the miscommunication is something as trivial as semantics.

Nope.

We never got to the part where we could discuss alternatives. I only got as far as respectfully bringing to her attention the fact that I found the piercing to be unattractive, and asked that she consider my point of view before making a decision. She's the one who brought up the piercing in the conversation, so I wasn't really prepared with any alternatives to suggest. Before I had a chance to think about it, she had already connected the dots and started complaining about the POJA being a tool to enable controlling behavior. She was very annoyed about it, and demanded that we end the conversation (which I agreed to).

In general, I'm not sure how I should address situtations where something like this comes up, unplanned, during a conversation. I think with some more practice and mindfulness, we could both remain calm and discuss the disagreement without getting upset, be able to understand and articulate each other's points of view, and brainstorm ideas on solutions that would make us both happy. But that's putting the cart before the horse, since it implies a willingness to follow the POJA in the first place.

How will you broach the brainstorming then?

You need to let this drop.

She already sees POJA as controlling. Any attempt by you to try and get her to agree to some variation on what she originally wanted to do will also be seen as controlling.

You've expressed your view. Leave it at that. If she decides to go ahead and get a piercing, let it go. She is not on board with POJA and you cannot force her to be, at this stage. Opening this subject again will do more harm than good.

You don't like piercings of the kind she wants, but you can live with one. If she goes ahead and has it done, you're going to have to live with it. It isn't attractive to you but it won't end your marriage.

Trying to get her to do something else when she is so resistant to POJA will set your marriage back several steps, and that is the last thing you want.

Don't tell her to go ahead and get the piercing.

Don't try and agree a different form of body art.

Just leave it alone. Let her do what she wants. One day she might be on board with POJA because she sees that it protects you both from unthoughtful acts towards each other. Until then, don't force it on her.

However, it was a disrespectful judgment whichever definition you used. So it is, really, a waste of time to say "I didn't mean that DJ, I meant THIS DJ." As if it is any better.

If you want help on this board, arguing with those who are trying to help you is usually not the best way to go about it.

I agree with Sugarcane.
You did right in telling her that it would bother you.
But don't force her to negotiate with you. Instead, at this point, you need to focus on winning her over to the concepts -- concentrate on trying to show her what's in it for her.

She hates the POJA because she sees it as just another way for you to control her. I've been there, thought that. You're going to need to show her what the POJA can do FOR HER.

SeekMore, it is bad ideas like this that ruin marriages. If you are here to obtain help for your marriage, I suggest you learn to listen to people here. Most of us are here because our own best thinking ruined our marriages. We came with ideas like what you are expressing here. We learned we were terribly mistaken and that ideas like this were leading to the end of our marriages.

None of us wants to hear that you think it's a good idea to clarify every trivial misunderstanding that you ever have. We disagree. I used to agree with that - I was extraordinarily wrong, and my marriage SUCKED ROCKS. Now I know a lot better, having learned from here, because I came here to LEARN, not to tell people what is important.

I suggest you listen more and try to educate people less.

No one believes that for an instant. You have a major problem with Disrespectful Judgements, and you are the last person to say whether or not you speak this way to your wife. Like most of us when we first arrived, you probably cannot recognize most of your Disrespectful Judgements, let alone be able to explain to other posters whether you do or do not engage in them.

GOODNESS, SeekMore, did you come here to learn from apples123, or to teach her?

How is this philosophy working out for you?

Thank you for this reminder. It's always been hard for me to leave any stone unturned when it comes to rooting out sources of misunderstanding or conflict. I think it often comes across as being argumentative, and I should take this exchange as a hint to be more mindful of this in the future.

I definitely value the feedback I'm getting here, and I don't want to turn people off from even trying to help me.

Ok. You all are really piling it on now. And since I have no reason to believe it's some conspiracy to scare away the new guy, I have to conclude that your points are valid. I'll take your feedback to heart. SugarCane, markos, and Prisca, my initial reaction was to be defensive about your posts, but I'm taking them in the spirit of constructive criticism. Hopefully your words will help me be more self-aware when it comes to identifying and eliminating DJ's.

Now, as to the situation with my wife, I actually decided to broach the topic at hand before I read SugarCane's response to not do so. I noticed my wife was in a good mood, and I decided to risk it. I know that was a bit impulsive of me, but as I said above, I have trouble leaving an unresolved conflict alone. I said this, more or less:

"I felt badly about how we left things the other night. I especially don't want you to feel like I'm trying to stop you from having something you want. Maybe if I saw you wearing that particular piercing, then I wouldn't have the negative reaction that I fear I would. What do you think about trying the faux piercing and we can both see how we like it?"

She was very receptive to this, and actually told me she thought it was sweet of me to express it that way. Maybe I dodged a bullet, and maybe I just kicked the can a little further down the road.

Again, I wanted to thank everyone who chimed in with advice on the matter, even if I read some it after I chose a different course of action.

Is the only reason you don't want her to get the body piercing is because someone you once was romantically involved with had one? So if she said she doesn't like you to wear jeans because it reminds her of a bad relationship she once had. Piercings are not perminate, neither are jeans, they are both an expression of a person. How about enthusiastically get behind something that would make her happy. Espicially when it's not you getting the piercing.
My H asked me if I would get a piercing, I did. It lasted 8 months. We decided that is wasn't really me.

Maybe I am really niave in the both spouses have to be enthusiastically in agreement. I may agree but don't really care either way. That's why I got the piercing. We were in agreement also when I really didn't like it.

What's the real reason you would rather her not have the piercing? Is it somewhere it wouldn't be socially acceptable? Is it somewhere an employer would have an issue with this.

When I think of POJA, I think of an agreement for the big stuff... Not what color underware my husband wants me to wear.
I think if .. Another child... Moving careers.. Moving houses... Kids in private school.. Vacation location..
I don't get out of bed and ask my husband how any cups of coffee does he think I should have and then discuss it.
Maybe I am over reacting but I feel anyone can use this to manipulate the other spouse. Because if I told my husband I think he should help me do yard work.. He would NEVER enthusiastically agree to it.. He would do it and be happy with the results, but I couldn't say enthusiastically would be the term in which I would describe his participation.

What other ways do you use POJA to get your way?

Sorry if I sound harsh. I would just like to know where you are coming from.
jaeRN13

If I would have seen the post right before my last I wouldn't have said anything. A temporary is a great idea.

Good Luck

It is clear that you have no understanding of POJA, and neither do you seem to realise that this forum does not exist to give advice based on your personal opinions. Is your marriage such a success that you can advise other people to do what you do?

Dr Harley's marriage IS a success and he created his materials based on that, and on his successful coaching experience, to advise people how to have lifelong, romantic, happy marriages.

Your understanding of POJA is woefully off, and you should not be advising anybody else until you have learn what POJA really involves, and its benefits.