Also, there are alot of great women out there that you could love who would love you back and who would be buyers. Devoting yourself to a freeloader doesn't make alot of sense when you know she will never make you happy due to her philosophy of marriage.

hmph... either way it will be hard. I really love her a lot, always have. She is all I have thought about for 16 years even when we were apart. If I won her back, then there would have to be commitments moving her towards a buyer like indie mentioned, that makes sense to me. If it was the same old same old, then I agree, it would be terrible and happen again. I thought we had the same philosophy on marriage but I guess not. She has never told me she does not value it, I am just saying that I feel like I am being treated like a replaceable boy friend rather than a husband. I think she would describe things differently.

I'll have to read the book and figure out if she is a free loader or renter... I thought renter but I'll have to read more about it. If we could just talk about the issues, she just moves so fast.

Thanks for the feedback melody and indie.

Yes, it will be hard in the short term either way. But not in the long term if you leave the relationship and pursue someone more appropriate. Pursuing her will result in short term pain and long term pain. Long term pain becaues her philosophy of marriage will ensure this happens again. You can't force her to change against her will.


And just think, you could love someone else as much or more and have a great marriage. With this woman, you don't have a future.


That would not be the case if you were in love with someone else.


She is a freeloader. However, that is neither here nor there. She has a philosophy of marriage that will always doom any relationships. And you cannot change her against her will.

You could be just as much in love with another woman who would be more appropriate marriage material. But you can't do that if you are chasing a woman who will likely never be marriage material.

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accommodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

Thanks for the bluntness Melody. Sometimes I do need that. One thing is for sure, I always feel the best when I am not talking to her. That has always been the case.

That second sentence in the freeloader description is pretty telling... that was almost a direct quote from her actually.

I am just so disappointed but I need to learn from this. We'll see what happens over the next few days.

Are there children?

nope... no children. So obviously much easier to just call it quits (though that is not what I want!).

That might have been another issue actually. I really want them, we talked about it and she says she does to. But it was getting to be about that time. I am just finishing my MBA and we had agreed to wait until that was complete. I don't know.

seems like my case is similar to the 'feel like an idiot' thread in some ways... I'll read through that one

If you can think about this logically, think on this: no matter what you do you will hurt in the short term. You can either continue to pursue her - and be rejected - or you can make a decision to move on. Either way will hurt. If you move on, you will have an opportunity to find a woman you love, but loves you back and will be marriage material. That would lead to long term happiness.

The other path is to continue to pursue her. If you did end up with her, I predict it will be short term and you will be dealing with more of the same in the future. Any future with her will be one of unhappiness because of her marriage philosophy.

If I were you, I would choose the path to happiness. You will never be happy with your wife in the future, even if you did get her back short term.


What does this mean?

just means we will see where my head is at in a few days and if I can get any hard evidence about what is going on.

I am tending to side on the path you suggest. That was my original plan anyway.

I am just wondering if her marriage philosophy could change. Obviously, if you were to ask her what it is, it would be similar to mine. But actions are louder than words... and clearly there is no commitment here... no commitment to even try.. ugh.

Thanks again for the responses. Tough spot, but it is my own fault. Should not even be in this position.

If you can step outside of your emotions [hard to do, I understand!] and envision a path without her in the future, I think you will be able to see that your future happiness will be without her. She will never make you happy longterm. You are very lucky that you have the opportunity to get out now before you had 3 children and a huge mortgage. Most ppl are not this lucky.

Please allow your logic to walk you out of this hell. You have a chance for a future of happiness and peace if you will just take it. You don't have that chance with her. And sure, she may change some day. But hope is not a plan and you cannot change others.

"If you're going through hell, keep going." Winston Churchill

Her philosophy of marriage could change, but it would have to change a lot.

Being a freeloader is a very natural state. We all start in our relationships as freeloaders. While we date and get to know each other, we become renters. In ideal circumstances, we become buyers by the time we marry. Indeed, it is impossible take the marriage vows seriously and not be a buyer if you have any real intention of actually holding to them.

It is hard for you as a buyer to understand the freeloader perspective of your wife. I am sure that you had hoped you could change her all along. If your long history with her has never moved her off of the freeloader launching pad, what could possibly accomplish that now?

I still think reading "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders" would be a good idea for you. If there is any idea to be had to help you in your situation, it would be found in this book. At the very least, it will help you to avoid having this happen to you again in the future.

I certainly want to do what ever I can to be happy. I feel like I am getting old.

I am getting the book tomorrow I think, but how can a freeloader survive a 6 year relationship? I am not trying to dwell on what exactly she is but it might help me understand things a bit better.

As always, thanks for the replies.

She didn't survive the marriage, she is gone.

A freeloader will stay around for as long as there is something to gain. If your Giver is all she sees, it could be awhile. But such a relationship is unsustainable. Either your Taker will emerge to protect your interest by souring life for her, or she will find a better source than you that requires less effort from her.

Until you get the book.
Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

I find these concepts very interesting. Thanks for that thread, I look forward to reading that. This is helping me understand things.

I feel bad for her in a way. It is sad. Even if we are not together I would still want her to be happy.

How do I know that I am actually a buyer (guess the book and that thread will help me)? I found a quiz on here and I'll take it just to see how it turns out.

looks like I was a renter... too much sacrifice on my part. That is too bad. That might explain why she tends to come back (it is always her choice). Once she is not getting enough in her current relationship, she comes back because it is easy and I am 'giving'. I guess that is why it lasted 6 years but was not a sustainable model for the long term. She also has to always be in a relationship.

I'll have to let her go. It is a young marriage, I am still fairly young, and there are no children involved. It is tiring to fight and I do think the same thing would happen again for one reason or another. Actually, when my phone rang 6 years ago after not talking for 9 months, I knew we would be getting back together, and the first thing that flashed in my mind was what is happening right now. Unbelievable.

Do you folks recommend that someone in this situation talk to a therapist or anything? I have been thinking about that but am not sure. I am talking about just myself to try and have a better understanding of what happened. For example, when she says 'feel like roommates/ lack of chemistry', that is kind of damaging to me and definitely hurts my confidence. How do I best overcome my issues that contributed to this?

Thanks again!

pinnacle, it sounds to me like you do have a better understanding of what happened here and how your choices led you to this place. I think you can now see the signs that indicated she is not marriage material. You can also see how your renters approach contributed to that scenario. Renters tend to make many sacrifices, i.e.: unconditional love. Unconditional love leads to neglect and abuse in marriages. Dr Harley addresses this here:


If I were you, I would forgo therapy and commit yourself to a crash course in relationships and marriages, starting with Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders. After that, check out His Needs, Her Needs. Those 2 books will teach you how to establish appropriate boundaries in your future relationships.


You will feel 100x better if you do the right thing and walk away. You can learn to protect your boundaries by becoming a regular poster here. We would be glad to support you.

I just received both books and can't wait to read them. I am going to start with "buyers, renters and freeloaders".

I have had very little contact with my wife over the past 2 weeks. Basically just one short email covering some logistics. Even that email made me feel bad even though there was nothing in it that should have. Just reinforces my need to cut contact. But it does feel super strange.

I thought long and hard about hiring a PI a few days ago, almost did actually. I was going to go the whole exposure route. Didn't think it was worth it in the end. She would completely flip out. My problem is that I need this to proceed with no lawyers. I think if I went the exposure route she would hire a lawyer for sure then I would be in trouble. I had already talked to her about it and there is no need for lawyers (although there should be from her POV).

I researched the guy I suspected. Now I doubt that it is him. Too much of a complete loser, arrest record etc. Doesn't make sense. I don't know who else who it could be but I guess it does not really matter at this point.

On to better things I say. I will say my confidence has spiked up a bit the past month or so. Living alone is an adjustment but I haven't had to watch a minute of reality TV! (my giver gave in to a lot of reality TV)