How is it going, txstunnedman?

You abandoned your thread and left our questions unanswered, after all the help you were given.

Did you ever follow up with the Harleys? How are things now?

Yes things got very crazy for a while to the point of getting violent. I ended up having to leave my home and going to plan B. I went completely dark and let her Affair run its course and die which it quickly did.

Befre I left, xW ended up going off the deep end and seeking attention anywhere and everywhere all while I was under the same roof so arguments got very heated and unhealthy. She was still occasionally talking to the initial OM and seeking him out for attention but also was sexting multiple other ppl and began a new affair with another person. This is the point that I just felt I needed to move on and go to Plan B. I didn't follow the program correctly and after she starting seeking out multiple people I did as well and gave her a taste of her own medicine. This is when all hell broke loose and things got violent (her to me). I had to run out of the house a few times figuring out how to get out of the house as she would block exits. I even had her hanging on the car door as I drove away a few times.

After a while once the emotions had calmed down I ended Plan B and we communicated and began spending time together. Neither of us were willing to fully commit and after 2-3 months we decided it was not going to work and filed for divorce. We were already living apart at that time so it went very civil actually.

We get along fine and we share custody of our children. I have a girlfriend who moved in with me and xW met someone and had a baby. To me it was the right decision to end the marriage, I wasn't going to be able to get over it and honestly it was just unhealthy to keep trying.

I was thinking of making a new thread in the Divorced or Dating section but just trying to make sure I get my relationship strong as its been pretty rocky honestly. Early on my gf didn't cope well with me having an xW but things have been getting better and I hope they keep going that way. Maybe I will open a new thread to get some insight to improve my relationship.

I started coming in here to read the stories since I've had some spare time recently and honestly its so crazy to see the same patterns over and over. I feel so bad for all these poor ppl who fight against the advice even though its so clear they should be following it now that I can see if from a practical standpoint instead of an emotional one.

Anyways...thanks for checking in and thank you all for help, support and dedication to helping others. It truly makes a difference and means the world.

Good grief. Those poor children. It's a pity you couldn't have divorced without subjecting them to all those destructive behaviours.

It doesn't sound as if you were getting help from the Harley's. Did you ever respond to them?

I agree. Looking back there was much that should have been differently but it has taught me a lot and put things in perspective for me. I have been able to prioritize things and understand what is most important and honestly us trying to fix that toxic situation and allow it to be toxic in the first place was selfish on our part.

While I disagree with some of Dr. Harley's advice on the order of importance of things like children ahead of marriage (which I don't believe he has them in that order), I do believe in his program and think he does have a great program to save marriages and build strong relationships. I am grateful that this situation has allowed me to put things in perspective and focus on being the best parent I can be for my children which is the most important thing for me. I did respond to Joyce but it was after a few months from when I had initially reached out.

Why do you say that? You're saying that you believe that children should come before the marriage?

Are you saying that you think that one's children should come before one's spouse? How could that lead to a happy marriage and a happy family?

Looking out for the best interest of your marriage IS looking out for the best interest of your children. Decisions about children should be made by utilizing POJA. If you make decisions that hurt your spouse, you are going to hurt your marriage no matter what the justification.

I am absolutely saying that. You cannot have a happy family assuming you have children by not putting them first. One parent will always have resentment for being forced to make that choice. I understand Dr. Harley believes otherwise but I simply don't agree. I'm not trying to be contentious of in any way demean the MB program because this is the only thing I disagree with out of all that I've read. I still think Dr. Harley is a genius when it comes to building happy marriages as well as when it comes to dealing with affairs.

If there is a marriage where step children are present I also believe the children should come first and even when if comes to children from an Affair (I know this is in contrast with Dr. Harley). Now, I don't believe it would lead to an unhappy marriage honestly I don't believe it should ever be an issue. The POJA will not work in this situation because if children are the issue then one spouse will be forced to choose spouse or children and will not be able to choose spouse with enthusiatic agreement without resentment. If spouses want to have children in a marriage or blend a family due to marriage, they should do so with the understanding children are the first/top priority.

IMO, if someone is ever posed with the choice of child or spouse it doesn't compare and its not in favor of the spouse. That's simply my belief...but it doesn't mean I don't agree with and agree emphatically with the other 99.9% of the program.

This is a big reason I haven't chimed in on any threads. I want to make sure I provide no bad advice to any people looking for assistance. I would hate to provide any direction that would hinder someone from successfully recovering their relationship.

But I would offer support, if they are truly looking to recover their Marriage than MB is the way to do it.

Dr. Harley does specifcally address parents. The book HNHN for Parents.

You know, your opinion would matter more if your were expressing it from the perspective of somebody who actually has a happy marriage.

My now-adult autistic son has always had great needs. I can tell you from the perspective of somebody with a happy marriage that by placing my wife's needs first and following POJA, we are together best able to meet the needs of our son. You are totally ignoring the importance of having a happy marriage in order to build a happy family. The joint agreement of both spouses results in a unified effort that exceeds the sum of the two parts. So, unless you are so certain of yourself that you are beyond reason, I would suggest that you reconsider your position. It isn't even self-consistent.

I decided to remove this post as it isn't worth going around in circles.

But I do appreciate all the support this board showed and all the advice I was provided. It will definitely help with any future relationships I have and all of Dr. Harley's books I read will also help.

That doesn't make sense. If a couple puts each other first, and treats each other with the utmost care and concern, and goes all out to meet each other's needs and not to love bust, and if they create and maintain romantic love between themselves, how can one of them resent that? What is there to resent? What choice has been forced on them - to let their spouse treat them like royalty? To go out on dates several times a week? Never to have decisions made that do not consider how the spouse would feel about it?

An important part of marriage is family commitment. Women tend to want this from their husbands. This means husbands taking a role in the education of the children - reading to them, playing with them, taking them to church, being home for family meals, giving them moral education...all of this should take 15 hours per week, in addition to the 15 hours per week devoted to UA time between the couple, and it should not be left up to the wife.

With the importance placed on family commitment, there is no implication that the children should be neglected. Rather, the couple should not put the children first by organising their lives around music lessons, football practice, coaching the child's teams, letting the kids sleep in the parents' bed...

There is a place for church, music lessons, football practice, having sleepovers, coaching...but not all at once, or all in the same family, and absolutely not when the couple is having trouble. The couple needs to organise their lives so that, yes, one parent can stay at home with the kids if that's what they want; yes the kids can learn the violin, and do sports; but their lives fit around the parents' marriage, not the other way around.

If the parents have a happy, close, integrated marriage, that is the best condition for the successful upbringing of children. If the parents work all hours to provide for the kids and the couple never goes out, or the parents surround themselves with ferrying kids to Scouts, gymnastics, music and Spanish lessons, with 3 kids doing eight different activities between them, then you must know what will happens. One parent will be lonely and unhappy, and soon will learn to create an independent life for themselves - much as your wife did.

And as for your views on step-kids; second marriages tend to fail because the biological parent puts his or her kids first. People do not get married to play second place to someone else's child. With the problems you already have with your live-in girlfriend, you are heading for another failed relationship. You would do well not to live together, and not to marry, until that child is out of the home. You would do well to use Marriage Builders.

Did you ever read why Dr. Harley thinks this is a bad idea? This is the way to become permanent Renters and never Buyers.

Again, I admire your passion for the MB program and I share it. I simply share a different belief when it comes to children and that's okay. I hope these responses were not seen as a shot at the MB program because they were definitely not meant to be. I agree with 99.9% of advice that's been given on this board and since this is a MB forum I wouldn't interfere with that advice being given to someone else.

Anyways thank you for following up and caring, you have truly been a help SC and I truly appreciate it. This board and the advice provided really was all I had when I was going through a difficult time and I am forever grateful for that. I don't want to carry on in negative conversation and I hope you know I truly mean nothing but appreciation for this this forum and to MB.

The programme is all about putting each other first above all others. Caring for our children means surrounding them with a vibrant, romantic, integrated marriage. They are not secure if the marriage is unhappy, no matter how much love is lavished by each parent on the children.

Marriage builders is not about solving problems, or learning how to negotiate, or learning how not to have angry outbursts or make selfish demands and disrespectful judgements per se. Those tools are all means to the end of building and maintaining romantic love between the couple.

If you don't agree with the concept of a couple-centred marriage, then you don't agree with Marriage Builders at all! That's the very core of it.

It's okay for posters here to respond by explaining why Dr. Harley thinks that's a bad idea. It's okay to let them do that. It is why they are here, after all.

Marriage Builders will not work if you put children before the marriage.

We have seen marriages after marriages come through that are crumbling simply because at least one of the spouses puts the children first. This is the very reason that 2nd marriages often fail.

I'm not sure why time has to be an either/or situation between the spouse and the children. POJA essentially guarantees that all parties are happy.

My husband and I both have demanding careers and two small children who are involved in many activities (and they enjoy all of these activities, so we don't want to cut them). This is why it's so important to SCHEDULE the UA time. We have scheduled date nights 2 - 3x per week, plus he negotiated working from home 1 day per week so that we can have a date in the middle of the day. Additionally, our kids are in bed by 8, so we have plenty of time to cuddle and watch TV on non date nights (not considered UA time, but we still enjoy it).

Our kids love date nights. My husband and I do ballroom dancing on Friday evenings and when we get home, the girls are excited to see what dances we've learned. And on Saturdays, after we've spent the day going to ballet lessons and piano lessons and tennis lessons and all the things the kids love, they get to have dinner with their grandparents while we can unwind from our busy day with a lovely dinner together.

DH and I BOTH agree that UA time is important. And obviously spending time with our kids is important. So we POJA'ed how to accomplish that and it meant me changing my career (which has been a great blessing) and him adjusting his schedule (working from home more often). Because we were both focused on the same goal, we found a way to make it work and resentment never entered the equation. If something didn't work, we brainstormed an alternative.

Edited to add: I have a feeling Prisca and Markos are pros at scheduling UA time given they have 7 children. It is absolutely do-able to schedule in at least 15 hours of UA time while still having enough time with the kids. If it seems impossible, then there is probably a bigger problem.

IF the couple will follow POJA, then there will be no problem. Dr. Harley's advice to follow 15 hours UA + 15 hours family commitment time will be easy to schedule.

HOWEVER ...

The basic principle of POJA is that your spouse comes BEFORE anything else, even your children.

"Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse."

In order for this to work, your spouse must come before your children.

We have a case on the board right now where a husband has put the children first. He's a GREAT father, running his kids around to games and trips, etc. But he's doing it at the expense of his wife. The children come first, and he does what he needs to do to care for them in the way he thinks they should be cared for, but she is neglected. He's doing "What's best for the kids," but it still leaves her hurt and neglected.

She MUST be able to say "I'm not enthusiastic about this." And, regardless of whether he thinks it's "best for the kids" or not, she should be able to count on him stopping whatever it is he is wanting to do.

SHE MUST COME FIRST. Or the marriage breaks down.

This is very common for mothers of young children. They put their children first at the expense of their husbands, and the marriage breaks down. There is plenty of time to schedule for both UA and Family Time, but the spouse is not the priority. And Independent Behavior often flourishes.