Did he ask you to stop?

No, I wasn't badgering him. I didn't tell him he was wrong. I asked him if he could look for his phone charger and he heard that as me telling him he was wrong. I told him I didn't think he was wrong and he said I was telling him he was wrong again. He also never asked me to stop telling him he was wrong. He was the only one saying he was wrong.

It sounds like it is a good idea for your husband move out. Dr Harley said in the radio show "It might be a good idea for him to separate from her because I view this [her torment] as abuse." That coupled with his angry outbursts is a dangerous combination.

I am listening to the radio show response to your husband's email to Dr. Harley:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=8899#
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=8900#
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=8901#
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=8902#

paraphrasing her husband's email: I have read a good deal of what you have said about anger. I use anger as a last resort when nothing else will make her stop. She won't stop. Even when I plead for her stop. When I lose my temper she will back off. I don't even feel it is accurate to say I get angry to control. I do it as a defense mechanism. Altho she and I agree either can call off a disagreement she won't stop when asked. He feels she is baiting him. Her continuing the conversation is a selfish demand.

If you leave the light on when you know the other person doesn't like it is really an "angry outburst." She is engaged in various lovebusters and this really bothers him. He has tried to adjust to this and he just can't. From his perspective it is his only like of defense. She is in the habit of doing things that upset him. He needs to use his intelligence to overcome his emotions. He needs to do something about this anger. He is not convinced it is a good idea to stop his anger because it is a defense mechanism.

Once I tried to leave the apartment because I felt I was getting angry. I went outside and sat in the car. She came out and got in the car and refused to leave and stop talking. I got angry after 15 minutes and then the conversation became about my outburst.

Dr H says he needs to learn to relax when his wife does this. He will get better and better at this. The neural pathways will change in his brain. He won't get stressed out anymore. His actions to relax might cause her to go after him with more diligence but she will not succeed in getting him angry. I believe in some ways, his anger reinforces her obnoxious behavior. She has been rewarded for this behavior. If he would relax she wouldn't be rewarded and would stop doing this.

It might be a good idea for him to separate from her because I view this as abuse. Some women get to a point where they can't stop tormenting their spouse. It is angry 3rd stage of being quarrelsome and nagging. If she continues in this behavior I would encourage separation.

So it is probably a good idea for you to separate.

Did he ask you to stop?

Dr Harley ended the show with "I would encourage her to stop being obnoxious." Have you followed that advice?

ML, with all due respect, please keep in mind that the radio show was from my husband's perspective, not mine.

No, he did not ask me to stop. And I wasn't "coming after him". He kept telling me what I was thinking and I kept asking how I could rephrase requests in a way that wouldn't offend him. I don't know why he said he was pleading with me to stop. I think he kept hearing everything I said as "you're wrong" and he wanted to stop hearing that, but what he actually said was "[loudly and sarcastically] oh, so I'm wrong! Oh! Wrong again!" etc. He kept putting words in my mouth.

No, it was your perspective too. In your first post here, you described the problem where your husband didn't want to talk anymore and you wouldn't let him "withdraw":


That is exactly what your husband described in his email. You explained here that it was "selfish demand" on his part when he wanted to withdraw:


You said that you felt obliged not to back off:
Has this type of obnoxious behavior stopped?

Yes, it has stopped, and I no longer think of him asking to withdraw from a conversation as a selfish demand.

The car incident that was described on the radio show happened years ago, well before we started MB, and he had already lost his temper before he or I went to the car.

The issue he described with the light was missing information. We had this light because he asked me to get it for reading, and he had said that it didn't bother him or keep him from sleeping. He asked if I could turn it off. I asked if I could read for a few more minutes first because I have trouble falling asleep right away. He got angry.

So it sounds like it is a good idea for you to separate. Would you agree?

Also, I'm not a stage 3 quarrelsome, nagging wife, and I don't think I ever have been, though I can understand Dr. Harley assuming that based solely on my husband's account.

Oh yes, I would agree that we should separate if he can't control himself. He's now telling me he's contacted an anger management clinic.

Your husbands account matches your own account, though. The details of the incidents might differ, but the behaviors are all there according to your own account.

And that is fine. According to you, this has stopped, right? No more issues with forcing him to listen to you, right? Has that stopped completely?

Why do you think he left for the night?

That's great news!

Right, I haven't forced him to listen to me, and I've learned to calm myself down so I don't feel a desperate need to be understood by him.

I think he left for the night because I asked him to, and because he thought that my behavior was toxic. When he explained this, it seemed that his ideas about my behavior were all based on his own DJs. But he was finally able to express what he really was feeling without being disrespectful. Things seem better now. He just said he wants to come home.

What does this mean? He left because of HIS OWN behavior? That doesn't make sense.

Not because of his behavior, because of his judgements. He said that I 1. told him I didn't like him using my charger; 2. Think everything he does is wrong; 3. kept saying he was wrong. None of that happened in objective reality. I told him it's fine to tell me I did something that upset him, as long as he sticks to the facts and doesn't put words in my mouth. He acknowledged that none of it happened but he just felt like it did, and said that next time he will try to think of a respectful way to tell me that he's upset.

Here's how our toxic interactions tend to go down: I make an innocuous request. I don't use SDs, DJs, or AOs (he would confirm this; I've asked him). He FEELS like I love busted him and has an emotional reaction (he doesn't SAY that I love busted him- I find that out later, usually in an email). I can tell that he's upset, and try to clarify what I was asking and why I was asking it, in hopes that he'll see that I meant it innocuously. He takes that as arguing with him and not acknowledging his feelings (but his feelings are DJs because he's attributing motives to me). I try to ask him how I could have phrased the question differently. That doesn't work (later in an email he tells me it doesn't matter how I phrase it- I'm still "saying" the same thing). He gets more and more worked up until he has an angry outburst.

He never asks me to stop talking to him while he's still calm. He demands that I stop talking to him when he's already lost his temper (he makes some point, and then says, "I have to stop talking about this now, or else I'm REALLY going to lose it"). Then he usually just stays there. He has never gone on a walk or something to cool off BEFORE he loses his temper.

It's really frustrating for me, but I agreed to stop talking when he makes it clear he doesn't talk anymore, and have stuck to that agreement.

He said that what upset him yesterday was that I asked him to do something when he was trying to get ready for work and hadn't had his coffee, plus he felt like he was already doing several things I'd asked him to do before (on other days), and he didn't feel appreciated. I asked what I could do to make him feel more appreciated, and he didn't really have an answer. He said that I could try to time complaints differently, but I don't know how I can anticipate which requests he'll see as complaints, and I don't feel comfortable with just not being able to ask him anything in the morning.

Other than him taking anger management (which he is going to do), does anyone have suggestions for how to handle situations like this? What we came up with is that if he can't express himself respectfully, he remains silent until he's calmed down. He said that he can't always tell whether he's being respectful, so we agreed that I could say "what you just said bothered me. I can't talk to you until you find a way to say it differently."

If it was truly "innocuous" he wouldn't get so upset. You need to learn to discuss things in a way that does not upset him. I see you arguing with him over whether or not it was "innocuous" and that misses the point. It doesn't matter how you MEANT it, it matters how it affects him. So you are barking up the wrong tree here. Stop insisting it was "innocuous" when it is obvious he is upset and focus on communicating in ways that don't upset him.

What happens when he says NO to your requests? Can he safely say NO? Or does he face another exhausting lecture from you where he can't withdraw? Is he conditioned to be punished if he says no?

You do argue ALOT and I can see that reading back through this thread. You argue and then argue about arguing. I can see how that trait drives him nuts.


When you see him getting frustrated, you should back off. Have you been using the "Enemies of good conversation" guidelines?


Is he in the habit of agreeing to do things for you that he really doesn't want to do? If so, that could be part of his frustration. Does he understand he needs to stop doing that?

Which leads me to the next question: can he safely say NO to any of your requests?


That is great that he is going to take anger management, but you also need to know what you are saying that frustrates him so much. Just brushing it under the rug as "innocuous" is not a solution.

Will he come here and post to us so we can help him?

It is a disrespectful judgement for him to tell you how you feel. But it is also disrespectful of you to tell him he must "stick to the facts" and define his "objective reality." It comes across as though you are lecturing him.

He was very upset by what you said to him and that is being ignored by you. While he must address his angry outbursts, you have to address your delivery. You can't say it is "innocuous" when it clearly is not.

Does he feel lectured by you? I would really like to speak to him. Would he come here? We could encourage him in seeking anger management and get a better understanding of his frustrations.

When we are upset, rational thoughts go out of the window.



My (usually very calm) husband gets upset when I talk to him from another room. His hearing is not great and he does not like to be reminded of that. But he does not say that he cannot hear, he just gets emotional. I am usually very careful not do this but sometimes I am not aware that he has left the room, maybe I am putting something away and have my back to him. It's an LB on my part even though it is completely unintentional.

Rather than trying to explain what happened at the time, I follow him into the room and repeat what I said in a normal voice. Later, at a neutral moment, I might ask him if we can talk about an issue that I have. I might explain that I had my back to the door and did not see him leave. We would then troubleshoot how to prevent this happening in future.

The important thing is never to attempt a rational discussion with somebody that is feeling emotional. It just escalates the issue and solves nothing.