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Originally Posted by MrAlias
[

We are lining up a consult with a DUI Lawyer. Seeing he passed the field sobriety test we have a little bit of hope we can get the charges reduced. At this point in time we are not too familiar with the laws and what his options are. We have a couple of referrals from friends on good lawyers.

I am relieved you are doing this. When my son was 19, little did we ever understand how devastating a little minor in possession would be to his future. He wasn't even driving or drinking but there was a beer in the car. He has a great job now, only because my company only checks back 7 years, but there are many companies that go back 10 years. And I discovered that most apartment complexes go back FOREVER.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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We meet this afternoon with the lawyer to discuss the drinking and driving offense. The assistant and the law office made it sound like there may be an opportunity to get the number of penalty points on his license reduced. I'm hopeful there's more than just that.


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Here's the latest email I just sent to Dr Harley.

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Dr Harley,

I thought I�d provide an update. It�s not the best news.

We had some terrible drama with our daughter this weekend and that has put a lot of our talks on hold. We busted her for lying about an upcoming set of plans that would never be approved by us and as such she had a bit of a fit and ended up running away from home. We had no choice but to involve the police. She spent a couple of days away at a close friend of the family. She is back home now, we sat down and discussed everything and we have a plan in place where we will discuss things rationally instead of what took place Friday. We told her we�re willing to negotiate her options for having fun but in the end we still have veto power over those things we feel could be unsafe for her.

My wife continues to avoid alcohol. She still communicates that I�m wrong in my assessment and I continue to tell her I�m not assessing anything other than her drinking hurts me and I cannot live with it. That I don�t want to live with the triggers and feelings it brings when I see her drink. She has the backing of all her enabler family and friends. Mother In Law who lived with a now passed away alcoholic, her sister who is her best friend who now lives with an alcoholic (they don�t have much of a relationship) and a couple of her coworkers who are her drinking companions. None of these people agree with what I�m doing. These are people my wife will not distance herself from. So that�s working against me here.

Meanwhile I have your support, the support of the forum and the support of my kids, my sister and brother in law and a couple of good buddies.

My wife doesn�t believe in some of your concepts. Despite having counseled with your daughter Jennifer and having read several of your books she simply just doesn�t agree with all of the concepts. For instance, she isn�t a believer in your POUA concept. She feels time apart is good so long as that time apart is doing something that makes that person feel happy and fulfills their life. In other words I don�t think my wife agrees in what you would call an integrated marriage where the most enjoyment one receives necessarily has to come from their spouse. That to some extent we�re too separate people having lives and activities together but also apart. I know if a couple can find that balance that�s fine but we do not have that balance. If I had to give you a number of our UA hours it would be a single digit number and probably a very low single digit number. Nowhere near what you would suggest in your teachings.

I continue to discuss with her the idea of finding things we like to do together so that our time has more quality to it. Today she does her thing like crochet while I�ll work on the computer, work out or play video games. We�re in the same house, we talk, mostly about necessary stuff like the kids our finances, etc and she feels that connection is enough.

She has told me she is going to seek her own form of marriage counseling and for some reason I am not allowed to attend. I�m at a loss there. She tells me there is more than one way for us to get help and that many of the teachings of MB just don�t work for her.

So I�m at a loss on what to do. I am not ready to separate although I�m sure that is mainly because I am scared of starting over and am a master at capitulating/procrastinating. I would love to spend the rest of my days with my wife. I just don�t know if we will ever have what I would consider to be a happy, romantic relationship.

I feel like my back is against the wall here. That I either do one of two things, follow the MB concepts which I�m thinking is going to lead to a separation or I allow her to lead us to some other form of help. I know all the statistics about failed marriage counseling. It�s my hope she finds someone that would agree with your concepts. I�m in wait and see mode there.

I am growing weary having to deal with this. Feeling like on the one hand I�m fighting for my marriage and on the other hand having my wife make me feel that all our problems are of my own doing. That I�m suddenly way to over the top trying to apply the MB concepts.

Any advice for me?

You must all think I'm a terrible father seeing all these things are happening. They're coming in bunches right now that's for sure.

I know we have a loving household. We express our love for each other on a daily basis. Our kids are good kids but are certainly making some horrible choices. Some days I feel things are spinning out of control. I'm doing what I can to keep our family unit functional.

Last edited by MrAlias; 01/03/17 10:14 AM.

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Originally Posted by MrAlias
You must all think I'm a terrible father seeing all these things are happening. They're coming in bunches right now that's for sure.

I know we have a loving household. We express our love for each other on a daily basis. Our kids are good kids but are certainly making some horrible choices. Some days I feel things are spinning out of control. I'm doing what I can to keep our family unit functional.
Thanks for updating us, MrA. The letter to Dr H is really clear, so he should be able to give you advice.

I think it highly unlikely that anyone will think you are a bad parent. Almost all of us will have had similar episodes with our kids. I know that with my own two, the older child, our daughter, has been...basically...perfect, excelling academically and doing well in her employment, with no teen drama to speak of, while the younger child, our son..well, where to start. I won't thread jack except to say that it is hard for me to see how two kids, brought up in the same family, given similar opportunities and stimuli (music lessons, constant trips all over the UK, and to museums etc, holidays abroad, hugely loving and supportive extended family) could be so different. If my son hadn't been born at home, I'd swear he'd been swapped at birth!

I do know, from my readings on the private forum, that Dr Harley advises that we do not "tell teenagers what do". This surprised me greatly when I first read it, but I've seen in consistently from him, and I think that he will tell you the same thing.

He is very much against being a disciplinarian with teenagers, or forbidding them to do things, as this often leads to running away, as you have seen, or self-harming. His advice with daughters tends to be to hold your breath until her teen years are over, and pray. With sons, if they are difficult, encourage them to leave home in their late teens.

Anyway, I hope you print his reply here.

The friends and family enablers that you speak of lead me baffled. Who thinks it is a good idea to drink? Everyone I know is cutting down, and many of my friends and colleagues are giving up alcohol for January ("Dry January"). I'm going to keep dry for as long as I can, after January is over.

Who the heck (over the age of 25) encourages people to drink????


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Originally Posted by SugarCane
I think it highly unlikely that anyone will think you are a bad parent. Almost all of us will have had similar episodes with our kids.

I do know, from my readings on the private forum, that Dr Harley advises that we do not "tell teenagers what do".

He is very much against being a disciplinarian with teenagers, or forbidding them to do things, as this often leads to running away, as you have seen, or self-harming. His advice with daughters tends to be to hold your breath until her teen years are over, and pray. With sons, if they are difficult, encourage them to leave home in their late teens.

SC thanks for sharing the personal comparison. I do agree with what you said and what Dr Harley states as being the best answer. Our discussion with her evolved around us working together as a team to find a solution we could all be happy with (POJA). We told her we don't like to demand things but we do have requirements in an effort to keep her safe. So if she can find ways to ensure she's safe (within our comfort levels) then she could have more freedom than she believes she has.

The whole episode was a temper tantrum on her part and she admits she just got mad and lost it.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
The friends and family enablers that you speak of lead me baffled. Who thinks it is a good idea to drink? Everyone I know is cutting down, and many of my friends and colleagues are giving up alcohol for January ("Dry January"). I'm going to keep dry for as long as I can, after January is over.

Who the heck (over the age of 25) encourages people to drink????

I wouldn't say they are necessarily encouraging her to drink (well the coworkers do, as they're drinking buddies (infrequently)) but they are certainly disagreeing that is has to be an all or nothing thing. I guess that means they're telling her it's OK to drink but not necessarily saying she should go ahead and do it. If that makes sense.

Other than her sister none of these folks have heard my reasons why I'm asking her to quit. So I suspect the conversation with them was more along the lines of "My H thinks I'm an alcoholic and that I can't control my drinking. So he says I should stop entirely". Instead of saying "When I drink it hurts my H and thus he's asking me to not drink.".


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Originally Posted by DrHarley
Hi MrAlias,
It's common for the spouse of an alcoholic to think that most if not all of their marital problems are due to the spouse's drinking. And many of them are. But once the drinking stops, the rest of the problems of the marriage come through in living color. It becomes very clear that without alcohol, they have very little in common. You formed your relationship with her through a common habit of drinking together. When that was taken away by your decision to stop (which is very wise), what kept you together was removed. Now you are faced with the reality that you have very little in common, and must create a relationship from scratch. Your constant effort to reach her will probably pay off eventually, but it will be a very frustrating process.

I advise you to continue on the path you are following. Continue to ask her to join you in life, to become equal partners, meeting each other's needs, avoid hurting each other, and making decisions together. The MB plan is a plan of extraordinary care which is clearly to her advantage once she shakes herself loose from the long-term effects of being an alcoholic. You are her rescuer, even though she does not see that right now. Some day, however, she will. I hope you will still be married when that day arrives.
Dr. Harley

Last edited by MrAlias; 01/03/17 11:58 AM.

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Thanks for posting this. Some of us like to have access to Dr H's advice, so that we can use it in the future.

I'll see if I can find anything from the private forum on the teenager issue.


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It's hard, because his advice on teenagers is buried in threads that often do not have teenagers in the title. However, I found these. They are replies to three different posters:

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
The less you tell your son (or wife) what to do, the easier they will both be to get along with. Your son's disrespect toward your wife is partly a function of his age (most teenagers are disrespectful) and partly a function of what he sees at home. Your best bet at this time in his life is to let him know that his disrespect hurts his mother, and pray that the time that it takes for him to develop an adult mind goes by quickly. I would not punish him at his age if I were you, and instead, try to treat him with the respect that you expect of him.

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
Another rule of thumb is that teenagers should not be punished. I know that may sound ridiculous to some, but my experience helping countless parents raise their children is that teens respond very negatively to punishment. While it may be difficult to find effective alternatives, punishment does more harm than good in helping a teen adjust to adult life.


Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
Privileges such as cell phones, computers, driver's licence, etc. are at the discretion of parents and can be given as rewards for good behavior or taken away when that good behavior stops. When I talk about punishing, I refer more to physical punishment or grounding. I know of many cases where grounding has led to running from home or even attempted suicide.


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Quote
Privileges such as cell phones, computers, driver's licence, etc. are at the discretion of parents and can be given as rewards for good behavior or taken away when that good behavior stops. When I talk about punishing, I refer more to physical punishment or grounding. I know of many cases where grounding has led to running from home or even attempted suicide.


That's an interesting set of statements.

I guarantee you my daughter would much rather be grounded to the home than have her phone taken away. These kids nowadays live on their phones. My DD is the queen of Snapchat. I think she's going for a world record or something.

On our first go around with her back in early November we grounded her for a month, took her phone for a month and took away her DL for 3 months. To receive such a large punishment was due to her doing the following: Driving with more than one person in the car (illegal), not going where she said she was included driving miles and miles out of our hometown into Minnesota (we live in WI) and then not sleeping at her friend's house but rather sleeping in an apartment with a girlfriend (not her best friend) and 5 males AND ZERO parents. I say males because the one boy she is involved with is 18 and no longer in high school.

We were totally blown away by her behavior. And at that point we hadn't ever had to ground her. So out of character for her.

WHO THEY HANG WITH IS VERY IMPORTANT!!!!

We experienced that again this weekend when she strayed from her normal set of softball buddies to another friend who we thought was an angel. Well she's no angel that's for sure.

This time around we told her we want to negotiate situations and treat this like adults would. We did ground her for 2 week, didn't take her phone nor extend her DL suspension. She was quite happy that that is all we handed down to her.

So what we did kind of goes against what DR Harley mentions ... but then times are changing some and what kids value is changing as well.

Last edited by MrAlias; 01/04/17 08:28 AM.

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Originally Posted by MrAlias
We meet this afternoon with the lawyer to discuss the drinking and driving offense. The assistant and the law office made it sound like there may be an opportunity to get the number of penalty points on his license reduced. I'm hopeful there's more than just that.

My son decided to hire the lawyer. There's a good chance that my son could have plead not guilty on his own and then tried to negotiate to a lesser charge outside of court. However after talking with the attorney we were more comfortable having a professional handle the negotiation process. It will cost my son some money, maybe $1000 or so but for a comfort level this felt like money well spent.

The lesser charge will still require he lose his license but for a shorter time, it will still show on his record as a drinking offense but it will not appear as a OWI (also called DWI or DUI) and his auto insurance will still be impacted but possibly to a lesser degree (that may all depend on whether or not they drop the speeding charge during negotiations).


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MrA, the biggest concern would be how this will show on his background checks when applying for jobs. My company is pretty typical and he would not be able to work here with that on his record. WE go back 7 years and some companies go back 10. I hope your son's atty will fight this more aggressively so its not on his record.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
MrA, the biggest concern would be how this will show on his background checks when applying for jobs. My company is pretty typical and he would not be able to work here with that on his record. WE go back 7 years and some companies go back 10. I hope your son's atty will fight this more aggressively so its not on his record.

According to the attorney there is no way to remove this from his record. It will go down on record with the courts and so any company that does background checks may find it. They, however, will need to go looking for it.

In Wisconsin a first offense like the one we hope he's able to plead down to is not considered a crime and so he will not be required to list it on any application in the future.

According to the attorney this is the best we can hope for. To be honest, he committed some serious violations. He was excessively speeding and we was, in all honesty, over the legal limit of .08 when he was pulled over. He blew a .07 at the police department around 1 hr and 45 minutes later.

I think if we're able to get this reduced in anyway will be a blessing.

If the prosecution wants to be pricks they could sell a jury on him being over the legal limit. My son was very polite and cooperative so hopefully that makes a difference when the attorney discusses this with the DA's office.

Last edited by MrAlias; 01/04/17 09:59 AM.

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I don't really have a question for the forum but I did want to share something that's weighing on my mind in the near future.

Saturday is the wife's company Xmas party. They take us to a restaurant and yes there will be alcohol there. The wife has committed to going so I'm committing to go with her. I could have pushed more for not going but I didn't. that's the downside.

The upside is there may be an opportunity for me to talk with her coworkers who enable her drinking and don't agree with my all or nothing philosophy.

They obviously don't understand what this drinking has done to our relationship.

I won't initiate it but if I'm put on the defensive I will explain the reasons why and ask them for their support in helping our marriage to heal.

They're nice ladies and I cannot see them taking a stance that abuse in a relationship is good in any way. As a matter of fact the one person is divorced from a very physically abusive man and she also lost a daughter to a heroine overdose. So I would think she would fully understand my position and would support the decision.

Edited to add: My wife has already brought our troubles to these 2 ladies. I'd rather not air our dirty laundry to them but I also won't be beat down by a bunch of enablers.

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Wait I actually do have a question.

Quote
I won't initiate it but if I'm put on the defensive I will explain the reasons why and ask them for their support in helping our marriage to heal.


Is this a bad idea? Should I be sure not to air our dirty laundry to these folks? My wife has asked for their opinion and they don't agree with the request I've made.

They're also just outside observers and have no idea the kind of ordeal this has created for MrAlias and I. So do I even bother or just suck up any heat they send my way? I can take the heat but I'd prefer not to. Do I ask my wife to leave if they do or do I take the time to explain what this means for me?



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Are you enthusiastic about going to this Christmas party?


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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Are you enthusiastic about going to this Christmas party?

Yes. There are a lot of nice people that my wife works with and I enjoy their company. They provide a nice meal at a nice restaurant and while there is drinking there it isn't a party where it excessive.

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I personally would suggest you not go to this party MrAlias.

At this very pivotal point in your situation, where your wife has agreed to not drink and is seemingly sticking to that for now, I would not risk putting her in a social environment with alcohol and friends that are supportive of her drinking. This is just setting her up for failure IMO.

I would also not feel the need to defend yourself and your boundaries in your marriage to coworkers. It is not fair for YOU to be put in that position.

Avoid this mess all together. Your time would be better spent on a nice date doing something fun together.

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This is just setting her up for failure IMO.
I agree.
A couple can enthusiastically agree to do something that is destructive to their marriage. This is one of those things. She doesn't need the temptation, and she doesn't need the reminder of what she can't have.

You don't seem to really understand triggers, and just how dangerous they are ...


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Thanks folks but my wife will never agree to NOT go to this party.

I'm in the position of trying to implement the principles I have learned here with a partner that isn't on board. So I'm having to make the best of any situation.

I agree this isn't the best situation for anyone and I'll most likely get a bunch of the Mrs' cold shoulder during the party. However this is an opportunity to show her that I, at least, can be pleasant and make life's moments enjoyable without having to drink to get there.

I may be taking Dr Harley's advice in the wrong context in this situation but I see it as the best alternative I have given she isn't onboard with his advice AT ALL. If I state we shouldn't go, which I did once and she chose to ignore, she will say she'll go without me "I already committed, the company has spent the money for our plates, etc, etc. Feel free to stay home if you want but I'm going.".

Our oldest son works part-time for my wife so he will be there as well and he is definitely on board with my request that she stop drinking. He's hesitant to say too much to her given his recent drinking violations, doesn't want to come off sounding hypocritical.

I fully understand triggers. The world is full of them when it comes to alcohol. Like it or not she is going to have to learn how to deal with those situations. My hope would be that she avoid them entirely but me mandating that we avoid them isn't going to make her work with me.

Given she isn't on board with the principles and workings of the POJA I have literally zero ability to negotiate this with her and demands just make her retreat from me even more.

You can tell me all you want about how we should avoid these situations, I agree. That doesn't help me get there without further alienating my wife.

Sorry for all of the defensive talk. I get it and I agree with what you're saying. I'm walking a fine line here, trying to implement the strategies, following the advice Dr H provided without having to ask him my every move, yet working with a spouse who tells me Dr H isn't right for her and that there is more than one way to cross the road. She is exploring another way supposedly.

I say that knowing full well I may be tossed from this place. That if I'm not going to follow MB that there is nothing this place can do for me and I'll only be distracting posters from helping those who are willing to implement its strategies.

My hope is that whomever she finds to counsel her/us that that person is onboard with the concepts here or has very similar philosophies and they become a part of what her and I work towards in the future. I am educated on the failures and successes of marriage counseling having been here for a very long time and hearing all of the great posts that make this so clear for me. So I'll be sure to bail out of any counseling that sends us down a bad path.

Last edited by MrAlias; 01/05/17 08:38 AM.

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Originally Posted by MrAlias
Thanks folks but my wife will never agree to NOT go to this party.

I'm in the position of trying to implement the principles I have learned here with a partner that isn't on board. So I'm having to make the best of any situation.

What principle are you implementing here? You are violating every MB concept by making a sacrifice and by doing something you know is marriage wrecking. All of your justifications are served up to avoid the conflict. At the end of the day, your wife shouldn't be in a drinking environment and you shouldn't be going with her. Even if she refuses to not go, you shouldn't be going, which only shows you condone her actions.

Quote
I agree this isn't the best situation for anyone and I'll most likely get a bunch of the Mrs' cold shoulder during the party. However this is an opportunity to show her that I, at least, can be pleasant and make life's moments enjoyable without having to drink to get there.

I may be taking Dr Harley's advice in the wrong context in this situation but I see it as the best alternative I have given she isn't onboard with his advice AT ALL. If I state we shouldn't go, which I did once and she chose to ignore, she will say she'll go without me "I already committed, the company has spent the money for our plates, etc, etc. Feel free to stay home if you want but I'm going.".

This is the worst thing you could do. It just shows her you aren't really serious about the drinking. It makes no sense whatsoever to take her to a drinking environment. You should take a strong stand against this and refuse to go.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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