For anyone who's interested. I, frankly, especially after posting on this forum for a year and reading people's stories, am more and more coming to the conclusion that most people of both sexes simply are not cut out for monogamy. I feel that I am one of the few who are monogamous by nature. (Many of us end up posting here on MBF, I think!) But why should we try and force this value system on the great majority of people who aren't? It only ends up creating a huge amount of pain and suffering for everyone involved. Think about it. Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex

Wex, Even after reading over and over statistics that state infidelity touches over 75% (or more) of all marriages, I still believe that human beings are basically monogamous. Only a small percentage of betrayers are what Dr. Frank Pittman refers to as "philanderers".<P>There are three things, in my opinion, that are at the root of all marital problems, not only infidelity: unrealistic expectations of the relationship/marriage, poor communication between spouses, and the selfishness of one or both of the spouses. Unrealistic expectations create the dissatisfaction and unhappiness. If the spouses do not clearly communicate their TRUE feelings about issues and events in their marriage, both will be unhappy. When one spouse allows selfishness to dictate his/her actions, an affair is nearly bound to happen.<P>Most betrayers have ONE OP (or at least one at a time). Many become "faithful" to the OP rather than the spouse. This speaks to me of monogamy - even if it isn't with the person to whom you are married (that DOESN'T EVER make it right). Some statistics I read recently even state that 80% of men (this was a book about male infidelity) who divorce express a desire to remarry their ex-wives.<P>Polyamory rarely works. Jealousy seems to be a natural emotion for humans. This speaks again of monogamy: If monogamy was unnatural for us, why is jealousy such a common (nearly universal) emotion when a spouse is faced with the possibility or factual presence of an OP?<P>Think about it. Why, if we are naturally non-monogamous, would infidelity be so devastating?<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<BR>

I read this article too, and if you hadn't started a thread on it, I would have.<P>Oh, I know all about polyamory. I met my H through sci-fi fandom, and believe me, that subculture is FULL OF IT. In fact, an article that some friends and I wrote about monogamy in 1983 is probably STILL being discussed in sci-fi 'zine circles.<P>When my H and I met, he was in an uncommitted, predominantly sexual relationship with someone else. I had planned to date him until sex became an issue, then move on. When it became an issue, I turned him down and said that if I did, I'd start wanting things I knew I couldn't have, like exclusivity. His reply? "That can be arranged." And yet, because of his supposed acceptance of the polyamorous lifestyle, it's been hard to feel over the years that he's OK with an exclusive relationship.<P>Esquire magazine had a profile of what they called a "group marriage" not too long ago. And even the "Loving More" people say that jealousy is a factor. In the Esquire profile, what was described was not so much a group marriage as a couple unable to be faithful, who brought in a revolving door of other people (always a foursome) for "open cheating." <P>Sorry...not for me.<P>Look, I get lonely. My H is working long hours and he's very tired when he gets home. I have almost no companionship during the week, and no sex until the weekend. I try to make the most of what we have. Sometimes I think that having another guy involved would be nice for me...but not for him. And if the situation was reversed, and for couples where the husband wants more sex than the wife, it would seem to be a solution...but it isn't.<P>Perhaps we are not made to be sexually monogamous, but we are also not made to be emotionally polyamorous.<P>So ultimately, we have to make choices.

Excellent last sentence, Dazed. I read an interesting article, maybe 5 years ago, I think in The New Republic (hope that's a mag., my brain 5 years later is a little fuzzy). Anyway, it made excellent points which I can no longer remember, about the primal root of human nature and the gender difference based on primal nature.<P>I believe in most cases it would pan out that the female is more monogamous unless she felt she needed more "protection". The male had less inclination toward monogamy because of reproductive differences. However, the male was more inclined to accept his mate's "infidelity" because it was not in his nature to raise another's off spring. The woman, of course, did not share that particular problem, so was a little more tolerant overall.<P>I think it basically pointed practical reasons for gender differences at least in primal sense and brought up the idea of serial monogamy...being faithful in a series of relationships.<P>I think we need to understand all we can, but then make our own choices how we will behave as functioning thinking adults.<P>I know I'm wired for monogamy....although I sure had some fun juggling in my dating days...hmm.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Everyone - After I posted, I thought some more about the whole issue. One of the things I realized is that I AM monogamous. I don't know where this attitude comes from as it is not, in my case, based on any religious teachings (well, maybe ultimately it is). Monogamy is what I'm looking for in a committed relationship and marriage but have yet to find. I mean, how do you find it if you marry someone who swears up and down that she's committed to monogamy too, only to discover that she's been cheating on you from the get-go and lying about it? This is the problem I'm struggling with. So I guess what I'm saying is this. SOME people ARE monogamous by nature and they will obviously be happiest married to someone else who is monogamous by nature. But I do think there are too many who, though they may think they BELIEVE in monogamy, really just aren't capable of sustaining a monogamous relationship. Thus, like my W, they're forced to resort to sneaking around and lying. I would like to see values change so that this doesn't any more have to be the case.<P>FHL - I've read articles about the biological basis of sexual attitudes too. Also about how prevalent cheating even among other so-called monogamous species of critter such as birds. It is truly amazing. Like you say, males tend to cheat more but at the same time demand fidelity in their mates because they can never be sure that their offspring are really theirs. Females are more tolerant of cheating in their mates because they know their children really are theirs. I don't know how much difference these kinds of explantions really make though. With human beings, I think the emotional side takes over, and in those terms, infidelity is just as devastating for both sexes I think. (It sure sounds like it, from the stories I've read on MBF!)<P>Dazed - I'm sure you're right about jealousy being a big factor in polyamory. I think you make a great point about us not being emotionally polyamorous and I agree. I think most people are emotionally monogamous (which is why when spouses have affairs, the effect usually shows up in the form of emotional distancing by the betrayer from the betrayed spouse). I know also that many betrayers would still be very upset if they felt their spouses were having an affair. So this is the jam we're in. We're emotionally monogamous but many people aren't capable of carrying this through in a marriage, so they become emotionally monogamous with their affair partners! (Yikes!) Good distinction too between "polyamory" and "open marriage." In my understanding, in polyamory everyone lives together and loves together. In "open marriage" a couple lives together just the two of them, as in a monogamous marriage, but both are free to go out with and have sex with other partners of their choice.<P>terri - I've read even worse statistics than that, including one that suggests that in marriage lasting 5 years or longer, there's a 90+% chance of at least one partner being unfaithful. And I think infidelity is THE central issue that causes most marriages to fail, even though it may be disguised (often is, I think) as something else. You can point to causes, such as one partner not meeting the others needs, but the fact is that infidelity is never a solution to these kinds of problems. So, although I don't feel I'm cut out for EITHER polyamory or open marriage myself, I do not want a partner who can't be monogamous to feel that she has to sneak around and lie about an affair. I would rather say, "OK, if you HAVE to do this, let's say we have an open marriage. I'm not interested in anyone else, but I can't stand being lied to and I have better things to do with my time than snooping on your affair."<P>Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex<P>

Wex, et al:<BR>It depends on how one defines monogamy. If you mean choose one mate, and only one mate, for life, then very few are monogamous. On the other hand if you mean that we tend to stick with just one partner at a time, then we are monogamous. Most of us can't handle multiple partners (sexually, emotionally, or financially) mormons excluded of course. But we all have a hedonistic streak so if we are not satisfied just right, we tend to find someone who can do a better job. Trouble is that our expectations exceed our grasp as soon we find that hardly anyone can satisfy all of our needs all of the time. Some of us just stop looking and recognize the futility of it and settle for the "best" one we find. Some of us just keep settling for the "last" one we find. Men and women are pretty much the same in that respect. However, men are more often seen as the perpetrators but only because they have more opportunity. Until recently, most men were always out of the house for 8-12 hours a day and dealing with others. Women stayed home with cooking and the kids. They didn't have chances to meet too many "others". Now men and women are "equal" (or so they try to tell us) and they are now suffering the temptations of the flesh (so-to-speak, as well. bottom line: If all our selfish demands are met we have no problem being monogamous in the traditional sense. However, if our partners fail us, we begin looking around. The more they fail us the harder we look and the easier it is to forget tradition. But ultimately we really only want one partner in our life, even if we have to try twenty before we find the right one or just quit.<P>Flip

Wex, <P>Excellent topic you have here. <P>I believe God made men and women to be monogamus in nature. As God said, a man should leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife (i.e. forsake all others). So, I think we are all wired to be monogamus, the question is why do some fall to this sin and others don't?<P>I think the three things that terri came up with are the key. It could probably be boiled down to one that being communication. I think most marriages lack real initimacy between partners. If we truely gave all of ourselves to our mate; our desires, our hurts, our concerns, our needs etc. then we would truely would be "one" as God intended for us to be. <P>I also ponder why marriage and families have taken it on the chin so hard over the past 40 years. Divorce rates continue to rise. Single parent familes seem to be the norm now. Abortion rates continue to rise. Infidelity touches the vast majority of marriages. Our laws seem to make cohabitation an advantage over marriage. Hollywood rarely produces a film of a long lasting love relationship. And on and on. It is all very depressing. It seems the forces of evil are having their heyday. <P>But, there is always hope. Counselors, books, marriage forums and prayer are making an impact. Hopefully, we can turn the tide and pass on a legacy of what committment love is to our children. I don't know, maybe it's pie in the sky. <P>Thanks Wex, you certainly have given us something to think about today.<P>SHA

I agree SHA, perhaps all these things are there and happening now for a reason. The world is changing. We look around and I for one am apalled at what I see. The violence, the virtually free sex, the singleness in lives.<P>God did not intend for us to be this way. We fight hard to maintain what we KNOW is right, not what we believe. God did not create women for Adam, he created woman. Singular. Period.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Flip - Both times I've gotten married, I've done it for the long haul. I've taken my vows very seriously, to be faithful and even the "till death do us part" bit. (Until I discovered my current W's affair, I would probably have remained faithful to her if she'd died.) But yeah, I think if you get married, get divorced and then remarry you're being monogamous. I do think, like you say, it means one partner at a time. I thought my present W was my soul mate and the only one for me while we were courting and intensely in love. I still love her but think I'm falling out of love with her the longer our situation goes on. I think after her, I will be one of the ones who just gives up the search, unless the true "right woman" comes along. Hell, I wasn't even looking for the "right woman" when I met my W. After my 1st divorce, a friend advised me to "take a vacation from relationships," and I did, and had stayed "on vacation" for a number of years until W made that impossible.<P>SHA & Paul - Thanks for your responses. Though I don't share your religious perspective, I think you have some great points about the decline of maariage. Don't share your optimism about the future of marriage and monogamy, but hope you're right!<P>R & B,<P>--Wex

Dear Wex,<P>I think that human beings have the ability to "bond" with different partners over the course of a lifetime. However, bonding with more than one partner at a time can "break" the bonds with one exclusive partner, like you are experiencing right now. So, there is a tension there. Does one want to bond with many and hence forgo or damage the bonding between oneself and a person we really love, or can one choose to remain faithful to one person in order to keep that exclusive, desirable relationship intact? It really is a choice. You can't have a close, intimate exclusive relationship with just one person if there are more than two people involved, it just doesn't work....<P>That is sort of a pragmatic way to look at it. From an ethical, Christian standpoint I think it is immoral but people don't seem to care about that nowadays.

Sorry, Wex, I disagree! This sounds like Bullsh**t to me! If God meant for us to be polyamists he would have created Adam, Tom [censored], Eve and Jane! This society is just getting too liberal. I wonder about the validity of this article? <BR>God Bless!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<P>

Everyone - I showed my W the Time article on polyamory when we reading in bed last night, and she seemed interested. Don't know what's going to come of that, we'll see. Please understand that I'm not ADVOCATING PA, I'm really just trying to understand people's motives for having affairs, especially my W's. I do believe in monogamy but for personal not religious reasons. I just seem built to be monogamous and have always felt extremely loyal towards anyone I loved enough to marry. To me, when you make that kind of commitment to someone, it's just unthinkable that you would break it. Obviously a lot of people don't feel or think that way in reality even though they may SAY that they believe in monogamy. Say what you will about polyamory and open marriage, at least they're more honest ways of expressing an inability actually to BE monogamous (as opposed to paying lip service to the idea) than an affair is, with all its sneaking around and lying.<P>And some further thoughts on "emotional monogamy." As some posters on this thread suggest, I do think most people ARE emotionally monogamous in the sense that they can really only give their hearts to one person at a time. But the fact that we're emotionally monogamous doesn't mean we can actually BE monogamous when it comes to an institution like marriage. What seems to happen when the majority of people get married is that one of them fails to hold to their commmitment to the other, and then their emotional monogamy becomes focused on their affair partner. Sure, they're still emotionally monogamous, but now its with the OP not their spouse! So much for emotional monogamy being enough to save the institution of marriage. Which, BTW, I think is in BIG trouble. As a result, I think you're going to see limited-term marriage contracts with an option to renew, and formalization of arrangements like polyamory and open marriage. Sorry guys, but this is what's gunna happen. And it may, after all, be for the best, because it will at least prevent those of us who ARE truly monogamous by nature (mentally, physically, spiritually as well as emotionally) from getting hitched up with somebody who SAYS they believe in monogamy but don't behave like they do. Well, end of lecture.<P>Chick's, Bonny - Thanks for your responses. I basically agree with you about the undesirability of polyamory. But when I say that, I mean for myself. Since I'm not coming from a religious perspective, I don't really feel I can make that choice for anyone else or even make a general case against it. I can only say that, if this is someone's real inclination, then I would much rather seem them be open and honest about it that sneak around behind their spouse's back and lie about it. That's all I'm saying. So when I try and get my W interested in the subject, what I am really doing is trying to help her feel safer about owning up to her own affair.<P>Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex<P>