Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our discussion forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
F
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
F
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
My ex-wife and I have been working toward reconciliation, however, I found out today that OM still has been calling her, and threatening suicide if she doesn't take him back. She says she feels responsible for his predicament, and can't see through the emotional abuse he's putting her through. Not sure whether to keep working towards Plan A or move to Plan B or just move on with my life. If I can just get her to go NC with the OM I think we can work things out, but I'm not sure how much more I can endure before I decide to call it quits, even though I've only been in Plan A for 3 months. I've encouraged her to let me have access to her passwords, and even change phone numbers and email accounts, but so far she's been unwilling to. I've repeatedly told her how important NC is for us to reconcile and heal.

Ex-wife still has feelings for him even though she has been showing me lots of affection lately. She claims she hasn't seen him since April 1, 2016, which is when she kicked him out of her apartment as a test, that he failed miserably, being caught going out to bars several times a week. Through OMW, OM's baby momma, and OM's sister, I was able to get enough damning evidence to show that he's a narcissistic, compulsive liar that is a womanizer and uses people to enable his lazy lifestyle. Even though I showed my WW credit card receipts of OM at the bar, OM repeatedly denied he was there. WW has repeatedly stated that she could never trust him.

I can't confirm that the PA has ended, but we've hugged and kissed a lot since attempting reconciliation, which had been missing before she decided to reconcile. She spent the past 3 weekends over at our house, but we have not been sleeping in the same bed together. The struggle I'm facing is that she is currently unable to meet my emotional need for SF. She says she loves me but wants to take things slow. The past 3 weekends have been almost all family time, so we haven't had hardly any UA with each other since she's attempted to reconcile. She mentioned she thought it would be good to go on an overseas trip together without the kids sometime this summer, assuming her parents can watch the kids.

Any advice on what to do is very much appreciated.

BACKGROUND
D-Day was Feb 18, 2017. Have only been lurking on MB for a few months, so I made a few mistakes along the way. At the time, I had no thoughts of reconciliation, so I kicked her out of the house. I did however help her get set up in her new place close by and helped her get setup financially. I did also console her after D-Day when she was threatening to commit suicide, because of all the shame and guilt, and all that she was going to lose. The OM went AWOL for four days, until he found out through a mutual friend that she was getting her own place. After I found out that the OM moved in with her, I filed for divorce, which was finalized about 3 weeks ago. About two months ago, I started lurking here, and bought and read SAA, HNHN, and LB once I decided I wanted to try and save our relationship.

I exposed to all relevant parties that I felt could persuade WW to end the affair and get back with me - WW's family, my family, WW's close friends, and OMW. Everyone has been encouraging her to get back together with me.

Around mid-March 2017, WW "kicked" OM out of her apartment so the kids could come stay the weekend with her. My lawyer put an injunction in the divorce decree that OM could not be with the kids from 9pm - 7am, because of his documented PTSD, TBI, and alcoholism. The fake move was a ruse to let the kids stay over. The following week was when I found out he was back at her place. I demanded that he move out immediately, otherwise I was going to move on, and she kicked him out for good. Although her intentions were not the same as mine, it ultimately ended up being the OM's undoing. I periodically drove by to confirm his car was not at the apartment following this move. After she "officially ended" the affair, and went through about a 3 week withdrawal period of severe depression, the kids and I had been going to her place to briefly hang out before/ after family meals. The withdrawal phase made me believe that she had went NC, but the addiction seems hard to shake, even if it's just emotional at this point. I gather she enjoys hearing him say how much he loves her, and has mentioned how much of a gentleman he is.

OM was the next door neighbor. He and the OMW are going through a divorce right now. What makes things difficult is that although the OM is staying on a friend's couch about 30 miles away, everyone on the street and teacher's at the kid's school knows what happened, so WW is currently not willing to move back home due to the shame of wearing the scarlet letter. I could sell the house and move, but after talking to a realtor last week, I would likely be taking a $50k loss in equity if I were to do so. With the amount of debt I currently have, I'm in no position to sell and buy a new home, without taking severe measures such as taking a $40k 401k loan.

OM was an unemployed SAHD, and WW was a SAHM, so their relationship blossomed because our kids were in the same grade/ class (ages 8 and 9). Affair first became physical around March 2016, after I began traveling weekly for work. I'm no longer traveling for work, so that is currently not an issue.

Our marriage of 10 years wasn't very good from WW's perspective, as she had endured 10 years of LBs from me - SD, AO, DJ - and I did a poor job of meeting her EN's, other than her financial need, which she ranks low. Her rationale for beginning the affair was that she was lonely, and stopped loving me years ago. I've since worked on these, and have been meeting her needs for Affection and Intimate Conversation, which she has noticed. She wants to make things work, and says she loves me, but the 10 years of pain are hard to chip away at. When we had lunch today, she admitted she's still intimated by me, and experiences anxiety when I call. At this point, I think she has more of a family love for me as one loves her husband rather than romantic love. One thing that worries me, is that she will not be able or willing to meet my need for SF, which will doom our relationship even if we reconcile and remarry.

Regrettably, I did go out on a date with another woman on the day of our divorce, and told my WW wife about it. Although it may have caused her some angst, it provided me comfort that I still do love my WW and want to be with her, and lit a fire under my WW's feet to do more to try and win me back before she loses me. I also did have a ONS 6 years ago after heavily drinking one night while on a 7 week international assignment, that I recently confessed to.

WW got nothing in the divorce settlement other than her car. I am the custodial parent, have sole ownership of the family home, and all assets and debts. Part of why I wanted to get divorced was to protect myself financially while my wife was in the fog. I also had full evidence of the affair through her text message history on her iPad, which I never had to use. I'm willing to get remarried ASAP (with a pre-nupt in place) if she is willing to move back home.

Sorry for the incoherent babbling. I'm sure I left some stuff out, or didn't structure my comments in the appropriate order, so feel free to ask any clarifying questions.

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,148
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,148
I don't know how it is in your jurisdiction, but here, if someone is suicidal, he can be forcibly put in a mental institution, until he is no longer a danger to his own life and that of others.

Any chance of that where you live?


me, DH
all the children
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
F
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
F
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
Looks like involuntary commitment is possible in my state, but gathering the evidence and actually committing OM will be damn near impossible. WW isn't going to provide the evidence to have him committed.

OM is also a compulsive liar and would be able to get out of it during the medical examination. The suicidal tendencies are most likely a tactic to try and win her back, nothing else. I've discussed with WW that it's just a tactic to try and control her, think she's starting to see the light.

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,148
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,148
It is obvious that it is just a tactic.
But it may help convince your wife, that if she is really that concerned she should call the cops or a mental health practitioner.

Has the affair been exposed to all relevant friens and family members on OM's side and on your side?


me, DH
all the children
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,148
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,148
As long as your wife is in contact with the other man, you are not in recovery, so plan A.
Please brainstorm as to how you can make a fresh start by moving.


me, DH
all the children
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
F
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
F
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
Affair has been exposed to all family members on OM's side, courtesy of OMW. All the children in both households, and OM's daughter that lives elsewhere have been exposed to as well. OM's family has disowned him and have nothing to do with him based on his past destructive behavior, so they have no influence over OM.

I'll let the WW know that if she's really concerned about OM she can notify the cops.

As for the fresh start with a new house, I could make it work if we move to a cheaper, smaller house, but I'm not ready to do so unless I know she is 100% committed to repairing our relationship, which means sustained, verified NC for me. This is what I struggle with, whether she's worth the $50k loss in equity, or if I should move on and live without her. It's a massive leap of faith right now. I can't stomach losing that much money just to have a false recovery.

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,344
Likes: 3
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,344
Likes: 3
You're divorced correct? Then you aren't in Plan A or recovery. You're dating your WXW. And I'm confused, if she isn't going to put EPs in place and end her relationship with her OM then why would you think it's a smart idea to get back with her?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
F
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
F
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
You're absolutely correct BrainHurts, I'm dating my WXW. I know it's a dumb idea to try and get back with her, that defies all logic, but somehow I'm still in love with her. I suppose the best path forward is to stop seeing and communicating with her until she puts EPs in place and ends her relationship with the OM? What about how best to address the separate living arrangements?

At this point even my kids told me they would understand if I moved on and stopped seeing WXW, even if that meant not being able to spend time with their mom. They just want to see me happy.

Last edited by FogBuster; 05/15/17 05:55 PM.
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,344
Likes: 3
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,344
Likes: 3
Will she put all the EPs in place?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Hi Fogbuster, welcome to Marriage Builders. Honestly, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain if you hang in there for a while and compete for her. You will win this competition.

I can tell she has fallen out of love with you but you can turn that around if you diligently avoid lovebusters and meet her intimate emotional needs of affection and conversation. It will take a while to see results, but if you hang in there for a few weeks, you will start to see her drawing to you emotionally. Once she feels emotionally connected to you, she will probably desire you sexually.

I would always look your best when you are around her and try to talk to her on the phone throughout the day. Not about anything serious, but about things that interest her. Try and make her laugh. focus on being as PLEASANT and inviting as possible at all times.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
F
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
F
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
Thanks for the words of encouragement MelodyLane. I've seriously contemplated giving up at numerous points over the past three months since D-Day but your post gives me hope.

I've already seen lots of results in the past three weeks since we got divorced. Ironically, my WXW views the marriage certificate as "just a piece of paper" and still considers me her husband. I offered to cancel the divorce, but she wanted to proceed so we can have a fresh start together in a new, healthy relationship. We've been texting back and forth and calling each other a lot over the past three weeks. A lot of ILY's shared between each other, along with other words of adoration and admiration. Lots of heavy petting and making out while together; feels even better than when we first started dating. We came close to being intimate again for the first time today when she came over to console me, as she sensed I was feeling down last night after she left. However, that came to a screeching halt as she felt I treated her like a criminal with my demands for EPs today, after she fessed up about OM calling her last week on her birthday, begging for her to take him back. I can tell she's already feeling emotionally connected, feels like she's 80-90% there. She insinuated that we will be intimate this weekend when she comes over to visit. I've read the link before but will be good for me to reread. Thank you for the reminder.

Unfortunately, I feel like I can't request that she implement EPs - change her phone number, email address, provide passwords - without it coming across as LBs. If I can tone that down, I have no problems providing her with her ENs and eliminating LBs. WXW has said it often feels like I'm a pit bull attacking her when I demand she implement the EPs.

What seems to make her most happy is when we go look at houses together, or go out to eat together as a family. We've started going out for ice cream with the kids every Wednesday night, which she seems to enjoy. We are planning to go look at some houses this weekend as well. I know this goes against MB convention, but given how much I've already blabbed on about EPs, perhaps I let that die and focus on activities she enjoys and talk about our future life together rather than the past. I know my WXW is not the type of person that can love more than one person at the same time, so if I can get her love to grow for me, the conversations with the OM will die a natural death. She's admitted that I can do a much better job of filling in the EN's he provided than OM could in filling the EN's I provide.

As for physical attractiveness, I've lost over 25lbs since D-Day, and now have a muscular, athletic build, not far off from when we first met. I've always dressed nice and make sure I'm clean shaven (manscaped even, lol) and smelling good when we meet.


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by FogBuster
Unfortunately, I feel like I can't request that she implement EPs - change her phone number, email address, provide passwords - without it coming across as LBs. If I can tone that down, I have no problems providing her with her ENs and eliminating LBs. WXW has said it often feels like I'm a pit bull attacking her when I demand she implement the EPs.

I would be very strategic about this and keep building up that lovebank before you start talking about EP's. ALSO, a big watch out here, you don't want to GUILT her into having sex with you, ok? That will backfire on you. Let it happen naturally and don't force it. If you force it, she will feel an AVERSION. Wait until she truly feels desire. It seems you are almost there so don't give up before the miracle!

Quote
What seems to make her most happy is when we go look at houses together, or go out to eat together as a family. We've started going out for ice cream with the kids every Wednesday night, which she seems to enjoy. We are planning to go look at some houses this weekend as well. I know this goes against MB convention, but given how much I've already blabbed on about EPs, perhaps I let that die and focus on activities she enjoys and talk about our future life together rather than the past.

It doesn't go against MB convention at all! Of course, if you decide to reconcile, certainly EPs will have to be part of the deal. But in the meantime, you can put it al aside and woo her back! You have so much more going for you than the OM.

Quote
As for physical attractiveness, I've lost over 25lbs since D-Day, and now have a muscular, athletic build, not far off from when we first met. I've always dressed nice and make sure I'm clean shaven (manscaped even, lol) and smelling good when we meet.

Great!!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
I would work on a program of attraction as long as you can. I predict you can make some excellent progress. If it goes too long and you start feeling bad, you can always go into a Plan B. But for the time being you have nothing to lose!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by FogBuster
Lots of heavy petting and making out while together; feels even better than when we first started dating. We came close to being intimate again for the first time today when she came over to console me, as she sensed I was feeling down last night after she left.

Try to not be down around her. Work on being as attractive as possible. The OM will be around less and less as her affair crumbles. The better you look the worse he will look.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by FogBuster
What seems to make her most happy is when we go look at houses together,

My H and I love to do this!! We go out to lunch and look at houses all afternoon. It is also fun to ride around looking up homes on zillow on the ipad.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,311
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,311
I'm with Brainhurts on this one: Without Extraordinary Precautions in place, I would not resume the relationship. I would let her know that in order for you to feel safe, she must end contact for life and there must be full transparency and accountability. Otherwise you are enabling the affair.

Requiring radical honesty and an end to the affair is not a love buster; it's a healthy boundary and a safety net for you. If she feels like she's being treated like a "criminal" because of EP's then that's a classic foggy response, and one that is a serious red flag.

Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
F
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
F
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
I think the issue I have with enforcing implementation of EPs is that I have extreme difficulty in requesting them without getting emotionally involved to the point that they come though as SD with DJ tossed in. We had some setbacks last week on Tuesday (via phone/text) and Wednesday (in person), and I threatened to call off the relationship until she was willing to put the EPs in place. I backed off on Wednesday after she stormed off when we met, since I demanded to see her phone in public and requested she implement EPs or no longer contact me. I followed her to her apartment and ended up discussing my need for the EPs in a non confrontational manner and reiterated that she must end all contact for life. She still claims she hasn't talked to him for over two weeks, and hasn't seen him in nearly 7 weeks.

WXW wants us to work on our relationship. According to her, if we're able to fix what's wrong between us, then the OM doesn't matter at all. During the aftermath of D-Day, she told me numerous times that she wished I had changed 5 years ago, before she withdrew from the marriage. About a month before D-Day, she told me she wanted a divorce so I started getting my act together. Even before D-Day, she started to see the changes I've made.

If we don't work out, she plans to work at their store for income and move back in with her parents once her apartment lease is up. She seems to understand that her and OM don't have a future together because of the trust and financial issues; someone will need to get a job that pays more than minimum wage. Despite me doing my best to self destruct the relationship early last week, we had a good weekend together at the house. We put the house hunting on hold, as I'm not ready to take the financial hit in moving until I know she is 100% committed to the relationship. She showed me lots of affection, with hand holding and intimate hugs and kisses. Had more discussions about going on dates without the kids, and possibly a vacation together once her parents are able to watch the kids. No SF yet, but based on MelodyLane's advise, I'm not going to push the issue. Without EPs in place, my scorecard for the status of our relationship will be the amount of affection and SF we have together. I think she still struggles with fully opening her heart to me right now, but that should get better with time.

I think I'm gonna take MelodyLane's advice and back off on pushing the EPs for a while. All I have to lose is time and effort; think I can give it an honest go through the summer. I read another thread by a poster named DollarBob where Dr. Harley advised him to lay off the EPs until her lovebank for him was full. WXW knows I will not allow her to move back home, or get remarried until the EPs are in place. She acknowledged she is willing to do so when the time is right. WXW said she has no problems with setting boundaries with members of the opposite sex, but who knows if this includes the OM right now. Both of us want to reconcile, but neither of us are 100% committed. She's scared that I might revert back to the old me with lots of LBs, and I'm having a difficult time trusting her while she is out of sight and out of mind during the weekdays. Once school is out for the summer, WXW mentioned she would spend more time with us at home since the kids will not have to go to bed early every day.

Although it seems like we're heading in the right direction, my need for confirmation drove me to place a VAR in her vehicle. I will not be able to check it until Sunday evening, but if I do find that she is contacting him and providing words of affirmation, I may have to consider moving on with my life. If I find the two of them talking sitting together in the vehicle, I definitely plan to move on. Purchased another VAR so I can swap out between the two every other week. Hopefully the battery can last for the 5 days she's away from home. The good news is that she barely drives since she doesn't work, so the VA feature could help with battery life.

Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
F
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
F
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
Checked the VAR this afternoon and found out WXW was still talking to OM and that he was still coming over to her place. Had a conversation with the WXW about implementing EPs, and she packed up her stuff and left. Shortly after, she called me and said she would do whatever it takes to heal our relationship and packed her stuff back and came over back to the house again so we could switch her cell phone number and email.

We talked, and I found out she has extreme sexual aversion to me and wasn't sure if she could ever be intimate with me, or learn to enjoy it again. After further discussion about my requirements, we both mutually agreed to split for good once and for all. I would never be able to trust her again, and she couldn't live the rest of her life with me constantly spying on her.

In a way, I'm relieved that I have the weight off my shoulders and can move on with my life not having to constantly wonder and snoop on my WXW. While it still hurts, it doesn't hurt nearly as much as DDay and a prior false reconciliation where she lied and said he had moved out of her apartment. I know I can move on since I know how dishonest she can be, telling me she loves me and wants to be with me, being affectionate with me, all the while still being addicted to the OM. Before WXW left, she apologized several times for hurting me, and wished me luck finding someone better for me. We had one final embrace and kiss before she left to remember our relationship by.

I feel sorry for my WXW, as she has no education, no job or job prospects, all she has is her looks. In the conversation I picked up, she seemed pissed off at the OM, indicating that she couldn't trust him and felt used when he came over. I feel that once her apartment lease is up, OM will move on to his next victim since she'll likely have to move back in with her parents. OM's credit is already so messed up that he'll be unable to rent a place on his own, not to mention the disability payment he receives is not enough to cover rent at a decent place (income needs to be 3x rent). She gave up a comfortable upper middle class life as a SAHM with most of the luxuries she wanted for a piece of scum, and will likely end up in a series of unfortunate relationships following the OM. Not many intelligent, successful men are chomping at the bit to be in a long-term relationship with someone with her pedigree. At age 40, her looks will soon fade.

Want to thank everyone here for the advice and support provided. Shall I ever meet Mrs. Right, I'll make sure to implement MB principles to affair proof my marriage. HNHN and LBs will be by my beside as reference material. The toughest part for me will be to distance myself from her. I don't want her manipulating the kids to sabotage any future relationships I may have. WXW already manipulated the kids to dislike my parents.


Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 7
A
AMJ Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
A
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 7
I think you've made a very sensible decision here. Where to go now? I think you need to find yourself, love yourself and do things that make you happy. I wish you all the best.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 106 guests, and 66 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
purple17, cbm800, Dodo M, Kingpin, MikaylaVaux
71,729 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,547
Posts2,322,775
Members71,730
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2020, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.  |  Web Development by SunStar Media.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5