Well, I overheard him in the bathroom say "I love you." It made me see red, purple, stars.<P>All the hurt I've been holding in came out. All the anger he's been holding in came out.<P>I'm not sure where to go from here. I keep talking, talking, talking. <P>He keeps saying 'we'll never be able to build trust.' <BR>He keeps saying 'I never wanted to be married.'<BR>He keeps saying 'I'll be better for everyone. I have to fix myself first, before I can fix this.'<P>He won't break contact with her. Though he says he's not leaving us for her, he's leaving us for him. That I have '**** on him' for 14 years. I have been in control. I have made all the decisions.<P>All my unhappiness poured out. I just wanted a husband who showed he loved me. I just wanted a partner. I just wanted him to be responsible, be a husband. I was frustrated and showed my anger inappropriately throughout the last few years--storming and throwing things (never at him though). I told him whatever I did, did I really deserve to be treated this way. Did he really have to **** someone else, then come home to me? Did he have to separate from me before I had a chance to know? Why was he not as responsible for not communicating to me. He kept saying I didn't listen to him. Let me tell you, whenever we 'argued' he didn't talk. He's like a turtle, the more I talk, the more he pulls in. He thinks he's telling me stuff, but he's not.<P>In his head, it is all my fault. I did, I did, I did, so he did what he did and now he is a monster. I trapped him into marriage. (No, I wasn't pregnant...had to use fertility drugs.) He was trapped in his mind. He couldn't answer me when I said so each child must have made him feel trapped him a little bit more. He couldn't answer me when I asked him if the song he sang me at our wedding was a lie, that each time he said he loved me was a lie.<P>Oh, s***, what have I done?<P>------------------<BR>Cali<P>"Humble yourselves, therefore,under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you." <P>1 Peter 5:6-7<p>[This message has been edited by InShockinCali (edited June 08, 2001).]

Cali, you are not a saint. So don't beat ourself up about this. It is my opinion that this stuff had to be said. This one incident will not make or break the final outcome.<P>Why is it that you are willing to forgive him and take him back after all he has done. But you think that you blow it with one outburst? You are too hard on yourself. <P>He has put you through hell. How is a person supposed to behave under such circumstances. <P>You are right however that a goal to avoid LB's like this is appropriate. Have things gotten to a point that you need to go to Plan B? So that you can both protect what is left in your love banks while he finds his way out of this fog?<P>Personally, I don't know how you have been able to do what you have up to this point. You are turly amazing. I do not think I could plan A for a day. So my hat is off to you.<P>((((((((hug))))))))))))<P>Z<P><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Why am I so willing to forgive him?<P>My counselor kind of asked me the same thing. My friends have asked me the same thing. I have asked myself the same thing.<P>He would tell you I want him 'because of the children.' I would tell you because I love him....but deep, deep down inside I wonder. Do I just feel that there is no one else out there for me? Do I love him, or the idea of him? I feel like we have gone right back to the beginning of our relationship--full circle.<P>What is love? How do you know it is real? I know that until recently, I loved to hear his truck pull into the driveway. I know that when he's home I feel whole and safe (even now.) I know that he's a terrific, nurturing father...I have loved to watch him with his sons. I know that for each time I have complained about something he hasn't done, there are three times I have spoken about him with pride. I know that when I found out what he had done, a part of me died. A part of my heart was cut out.<P>I am an accomplished educator. I don't just teach in my classroom, I am a presenter, a mentor and do other leadership roles in my school district. I have always allowed myself to be admired only for my mind. <P>He was my first lover. He has been my only lover. He was the first man to see me as a woman. He says I clung so tightly to him that he felt trapped. I wonder did I cling because I loved him, or did I cling because I was afraid there would be no others? Was (Is) my self-esteem so low? <P>Then I wonder how could we go 15 years like this, 12 of them married? How could it all have been a lie?

My dear Cali,<P>You are beating yourself up again, but so did I. I wanted answers and right now. The answers weren't going to come while my H was telling a bunch of foghead words to the OW. He meant them while he was in the fog and believed them as if they were real. <P>You need to know that he is not the man you married. Asking him if he meant the words he said to you on your wedding day and afterwards won't trigger him enough, he is NOT in character the man you married. Some said moose worm on the brain disease or alien abduction. Sure does feel like it, but the fingerprints and scent is the same but the touch is different.<P>Hey, I had to listen to H (while he was suppose to be giving a no more contact call - he did 3 of those weak attempts before the last one) and I had to listen to them laugh and talk 'nice' to each othe on the phone. OW did not know I was listening (H's request). Those were hard to listen to. I even heard her responses and stil had to remain silent. YUCK!!! So I understand how you feel. <P>Whatever reason you want to give it, he is not the character of the man you married. I asked H to please go find my real husband and send him home. His wife and son miss him. He came home battered and bruised, but recovering. <P>Don't beat yourself over the LB. Sounds like you should consider plan B seriously. All the consquences are important to consider. It is a big step and often a stress reliever but a scary one. However, it looks scarier than it really is. Plan B is implemented to protect yourself, it is tough love in action. For some it is life saving. For me it was a necessity. <P>Cali, you have a lot ahead of you. I don't want to depress you just prepare you. You may hear more junk like that again. The question is, if your H came back right now and said all the right words and actions to show he was truly repentant and willing to work to meet you and your family's needs, would you take him back? <P>If the answer is yes, then that is your goal. Plan A or plan B towards that goal (talk to Steve or Jennifer for the right plan). <P>If your answer is no, then make that your goal. Plan B and talk to Steve or Jennifer for further direction. Let them help you prepare for the consquences and repercussions. <P>I LB'd big time. I have a thread where I posted that I took a bad of H's laundry to OW's house. Looking back it was funny but a huge LB. But I do not regret it for it served a need and a purpose at the time. Fortunately on that turned out in my favor. <P>So you have not commited the unforgiveable sin. Wipe those tears, hug your boys and get some rest. When you do interact with your H try to do so in a way that his words and actions are ringing back in his ears. Ooohhh.... WS's don't like the playback mode. There conversations really sting them when they hear what they really said vs what they think they are saying at that moment. <P>I taped 3 very angry voicemail messages H left on my work phone right after he moved out and I sent e-mails to OW. Kept them as a reminder of how bad he was. He knows and wonders what I will do with it. Hm..... No reason to do anything at this moment. I asked him, should there be? The onis was on him to answer, he said no. <P>See have to make them think!!!<P>Now please get some rest. Tomorrow is another day.<P>Take Care,<BR>L.<P><BR>

No - don't even ask what I'm doing up at this time of night (worrying about when WH gets back from vacation, but I'm not going into it now).<P>Anyway - Cali, ((((Cali)))), I know you're worried about having LB'd, but you know, you just HAVE to sometimes. Anger is so destructive to YOU if you hold it all inside, it has to come out sometimes - and it's not a bad thing. You're still hurting - you are still being hurt by him - after all you've done to make things right again, and of course you feel angry about it. He maybe needed to know that right now - don't forget that there's a reason for everything in the bigger scheme of things and it may well turn out that tonight, it was the right thing to do - to show your anger.<P>Cali, I'll tell you the terrible thing I said to my husband (OK, it was when I first found out and I was REALLY mad, but I still feel bad about it)....His 18 year old brother committed suicide almost 4 years ago and I told my husband to "Go and do what Chris did and do everyone a favour". How's that for LB'ing? I felt awful the second I'd said it - it was just a very nasty, very spiteful, very shocking thing to say. But it was gut reaction, I was hurt and I wanted to hurt back and I didn't even think about what I was saying at the time - no self-control at all, it was out so quick I didn't have a chance to bite my tongue. <P>But you know what - he understands that what was said then was said in a blinding rage, when we were both overwhelmed with emotions we couldn't control, and he's forgiven me. In the same way that WE know that what our husbands are saying now, to the OW and to us, are things that are being said when THEY are in the fog of overwhelming emotions that THEY can't control, and we forgive them.<P>Cali - you haven't done any damage that can't be fixed, neither of you have. Hope you get some sleep sweetie,<P>hugs, Paint.

Cali, you are in plan B, you know it. So am I. I wish I could yell at my H like that, he really deserves it. I've been holding it all in, because I have never been a good speaker and my words just get turned all around and I end up feeling worse afterwards.<P>When you LB'd you did it for both of us. Thanks. Don't beat yourself up over it. You is having a freakin' affair!! How big is your LB in retrospect to that? Very, very minor.<P>Get your plan B moving as quickly as possible, make your plans, do what you need to to get yourself setup to live w/o him for a while. Believe me, it's hard, I'm living it now, but you need to do it - NOW!

Cali - he is spouting all the lines from the script perfectly. I heard the exact diatribe from my wife. It's so easy to fall for it because you're vulnerable. You're rational, he's not, but it's human nature to asssume he's thinking just like he did before the A. He is not. He is your husband's evil twin. He is NOT the man you thought you knew.<P>You are willing to forgive him because you love the man he can be. You're not going to forgive the evil twin, the imposter. Don't confuse the two.<P>Put this LB behind you. Next time, vent your anger to us.<P>WAT

You are not gonna like this, so stop now if you are too upset to hear what your husband is thinking (well maybe, but this is familiar ground for me as the WH).<P>Oh boy, here she goes again, same old crap, is all about what she wants, she has to have the emotional control in the family. He is also a little confused, part of him says no, is not fair to have done this, but another part says you got just what you deserved. You neglected me, so how could you love me, now someone else does, and I don't care what you think, or feel, I had to survive, I was dieing. He is also thinking how is my lack of emotional trust for you less important than your unhappiness at my finding another to care. BS seem to feel their hurt is so important, those ws who wandered cause they felt (rightly or wrongly) unloved don't really care too much that it hurts your feelings. You threw us away years ago, only kept us around to fill your needs (that is love?), we gave up communicating cause you won't listen, and have a million reasons why we are wrong anyways. You just say you listen, but what you really do is use what we say against us, CONTROL us (but you rarely admit it). We feel (and maybe is some fog here) when we get to this place (love another) that indeed you manipulated us into marrying you, and we never really wanted to be married to you. He is lying about one thing though, saying better to leave so he can fix himself first. He is saying that to make you feel better, what he really wants to do is avoid losing the chance to be loved by someone, and thereby to emotionally survive, and he wants to escape the prison (you), so he says that. As for your supposed anger, I am unimpressed, so most likely is he, it was controlling tripe, no matter how much you believe it (guess BS have their own fog too). Trying to guilt your husband into doing anything is a highly risky choice, it is precisely why we leave. Those here who say good for you, do plan B, etc. etc. are (IMO) giving you terrible advice. WS like this need serious plan A, we might then just possibly start believeing you really do love us and can change. If my wife had plan B, she never would have seen me again, she didn't do much of an A either, so things are still very iffy, but I can be talked into most anything. So we are doing the whole MB thing with their counselling, and we will see if I can change...but whether she can too, I have my doubts, controllers hate giving up control, are you able to?<P>I don't know your story, so maybe some important facts missing (my apologies if so), but what you said about H spoke to me loud and clear. Your post sounded like you are a controlling person, and that your past efforts at communication were self-serving, maybe your husband is a turtle for a reason? I was pretty communicative early in my marriage, trying to fix the problems, but I gave up after awhile and am accused of being a turtle (so to speak) last 10 years or so (not true, just learned I was always wrong, and if I persisted would just unleash my wife's anger, so quit early in any discussion). If I have offended you here, I am sorry, thought maybe you might like to hear how your husband might possibly be thinking.<BR>

SadnLonely <"I was pretty communicative early in my marriage, trying to fix the problems, but I gave up after awhile and am accused of being a turtle (so to speak) last 10 years or so (not true, just learned I was always wrong, and if I persisted would just unleash my wife's anger, so quit early in any discussion). "><P>It is rare to hear someone come out and honestly admit their feelings during the fog talk. But you explained it very well, thank you. What you haven't yet seen I would gather is how inaccurate your view of reality most likely is. <P>This last statement you made is very indicative of the what the truth and reality is to your spouse. We all see the world and our circumstances through our own perceptions. We tend to believe that if someone made us feel a certain way they did it on purpose. Not always the case.<P>If you were not open with your wife for so long how do you think she had any idea of what you were feeling? Did you honestly work on trying to make your marriage better? Did you ever give your wife any warning that she clearly understood of the problems you felt in your mariage before you decided to go out and have an affair? Did you ever Plan A?<P>It is more likely that you focused on the negative for so long that you began to fall out of love. This does not mean that this was what your wife was feeling at all. You need to realize that when we are doing something we know is wrong we want to search for and find every and any little thing we can to prove to ourselves and others how justified and right we are. These proofs are that our spouses are so contolling or insensitive or that we never loved them, etc and so on, if it weren't for the fact that they were so completely predicatable we wouldn't refer to them as the WS script. <P>However predictable or not, if you tell yourself something for long enough you will find your proof, and you will feel justified and right, and it will be real to you, so it cannot be lightly discarded to you until you realize what the difference is between reality for you and your spouse and the role that your perceptions played in how you felt about whatever was said or done, and the damage that YOU have done to your marriage.<P>Plan A while a spouse is in this mode is almost impossible to get through. You could be married to a saint right now and you wouldn't see it, and I know from experience that is the truth. Until you get out of that destructive frame of mind there is nothing that your spouse can do or say that you wouldn't twist around into being contolling or manipulative, however well intended. I knocked myself out. Just about did eveything but commit suicide and bleed all over his shoes to get him to see the mistake he was making and the pain and love I really felt, it cannot be done until the WS is ready to see it.<P>In comes Plan B. The WS is never going to see the needs their spouses are really filling in Plan A and how little of their needs are really being met by that wonderful OP (gag) until reality sets in on the affair sometimes. You don't feel the warmth of the bath until you get out of the tub. Sometimes this is the only way to get through and snap them out of it.<P>Cali, you gave him the Plan B letter, you know what you need to do. Stick to your guns and do it. you deserve better and you are obviously at the end of Plan A's effectiveness. Don't beat yourself up forthe LB's. Gosh, I've done it myself and worse. You know what to do.<P>

Thanks all. I got in touch with my anger for the first time and it wasn't pretty.<P>I couldn't take the 'in my face'ness of it all. He has called himself a monster. He has called what he did a 'heinous' thing. He is so angry at me and himself. But he has not shown remorse. Last night he said he didn't regret anything. He didn't care that he had hurt me. I called OW some very choice words and told him never to tell me I was like her again..."I am nothing like her." <P>Zorweb, Orchid, HurtbyHubby, Paint, ScaredinNY, WAT--thanks for your support, I talk to Steve next week and will ask about Plan A & B. Even after all this he has still not left. Just asked me if he should leave. Doesn't want me to control him. Wants to make his own decision, but he wants me to tell him to leave. Drives me crazy.<P>sad_n_lonely, I wrote a separate post to you. I hear what you're saying, but is it like scaredinNY says, could I really do enough? I kept telling him last night he was hearing me through his filter. I said it didn't matter what I said or did he didn't want to believe I had changed so whatever I said or did was colored by the past. He keeps saying "I can't forgive him, I can't ever trust him." Does he believe this? or is it a test...how many times do I have to say "I can learn." I feel like this has been some big test. How much can I do to her before she gives up? I feel like if I plan B, make him leave, that's his "Get out of Jail Free card." He can say "she made me leave." <P><P>------------------<BR>Cali<P>"Humble yourselves, therefore,under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you." <P>1 Peter 5:6-7

Cali- trust me he is going to find a reason to say that anyhow no matter what you do. My H actively pushed me to say it just once in any way shape or form and he was ready to spring into action. This is the secondtime he left. <P>we had a fight, i wanted a time out so that he wouldn't be like this when kids got home- went to say I wanted him to leave to cool off a while. Never got to finish the sentence. As soon as I want you to leave passed my lips he was packing, I cried and pleaded for 2 hours, literally on my knees not to do this as he packed. He went out and told everyone I kicked him out. It was the only way he could feel good about it. <P>But truth is he didn't feel good about it at all. Therefore now a changed man, thanks to miracle from God, you know?<P>You're right on the money- there is no way to win w/ WS in that rame of mind. Do what you have to do for your sanity.<P>

Cali,<P>Maybe it is a big test "how much can I do to her before she gives up." Or maybe it the other way around: "How much does she love me? Will she love me even if I do this or that?"<P>I know I've wondered if that was a factor in my husband's case. His first two wives left him for other men. So I've wondered if his affairs, having happened in the very beginning of our relationship, were not a test to see if I loved him enough to tough it out no matter what.<P>Don't know if it applies but just thought I'd throw it out there.<P>Z<P><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Scared....I hear ya, and I accept that fogs exist, and indeed is really just a label for the thinking that goes on during intense emotional turmoil... and that includes all parties including the BS's. But I also don't think that means the ws (or everyone else) is incapable of reason, or that their observations/complaints don't have a legitimate basis. I am a highly analytical person, and when I said I was agreeable to a divorce (1 day before D, but I guess wife suspected anyways), I meant it. However for the "fog" reasons people suggest, I have tried to avoid any precipitious action, defaulting to the status quo (married, and still at home), albeit a very tumoultuous place now. And the counselling, and the talking (endless hours, have talked more with w in last 3 months than last 10 years). The post D time has been horrendous for all concerned, and of course every affair is not the same, so when I offer my viewpoint as ws, it won't apply for all. My effort is not so much to seek validation, but to just give you all insight into the mind of a ws, who may be similar to yours. Like cali husband, I have no remorse. I don't like hurting my wife, either by the A, or by my sometimes crazy (hurtful) behaviour since, but IMO what happened to me was inevitable and understandable, there is nothing to be remorseful about. I am sorry she is upset, but I would do exactly the same thing again (but never again in the future), there was no breakdown in personal behaviour, there was a marital failure, my behaviour is simply part of the overall symptons. To have remorse would be to accept responsibility for the marital failure, I will not do that. If I broke a window and stole a loaf of bread (cause was starving), I would regret the consequences to all concerned, but would have no remorse.<P>scared....We tend to believe that if someone made us feel a certain way they did it on purpose. Not always the case.<P>Snl.... I use to (long ago) blame my wife, I stopped long ago, I do not think her contributions to our demise were purposeful, or malicioius, any more than mine were. My only issue is that the marriage was broke, and not worthy/possible to repair, so should end for the benefit of all concerned. Along the way I fell in love with another, the timing is all that makes me a "bad" person, I should have divorced first, so I will be forever guilty, that is my consequence.<P>Scared...If you were not open with your wife for so long how do you think she had any idea of what you were feeling?<P>SNL...I stopped caring what she thought, I just tried to stay out of her way, pull my weight, etc.<P>Scared...Did you honestly work on trying to make your marriage better? <P>Snl....Yes, much more than she did (IMO).<P>Scared...Did you ever give your wife any warning that she clearly understood of the problems you felt in your mariage before you decided to go out and have an affair? Did you ever Plan A?<P>Snl....This troubles me some, I never did a plan A, then B, I would now, I think that is the proper way to get marital attention. She knew I would never divorce (religious reasons) and I think used that (so to speak) against me. A person who uses anger always has the upper hand, and when they know spouse will not leave, the advantage is enormous. I did not go out and have an affair. I innocently made friends with someone and I watched in disbelief as a (bystander) something happen I had heretofore believed impossible for me (and same for ow). I have discovered emotional survival is powerful force in human relationships.<P>Scared...It is more likely that you focused on the negative for so long that you began to fall out of love. <P>Snl....True, and what MB would say (more or less).<P>Scared...This does not mean that this was what your wife was feeling at all. You need to realize that when we are doing something we know is wrong we want to search for and find every and any little thing we can to prove to ourselves and others how justified and right we are. These proofs are that our spouses are so contolling or insensitive or that we never loved them, etc and so on, if it weren't for the fact that they were so completely predicatable we wouldn't refer to them as the WS script.<P>Snl...Not all script, our counsellor for last 5 years has told my wife point blank she is controlling and emotionally abusive, my wifes solution was to stop seeing the counsellor. <P>Scared...However predictable or not, if you tell yourself something for long enough you will find your proof, and you will feel justified and right, and it will be real to you, so it cannot be lightly discarded to you until you realize what the difference is between reality for you and your spouse and the role that your perceptions played in how you felt about whatever was said or done, and the damage that YOU have done to your marriage.<P>Snl...Like anything, this has some truth, but varies by individual, has little to do with me, I am obsessively focused on facts and truth. I am well aware of my contributions to our disharmony, but I see no reason to not hold my wife accountable (or assume I am too biases to make a fair assesment) just cause it is me making the observations.<P>Scared...Plan A while a spouse is in this mode is almost impossible to get through. You could be married to a saint right now and you wouldn't see it, and I know from experience that is the truth. <P>Snl...It may be your truth, depends on the people. I am well aware of my wifes "good" days, and they pull me toward her, even though I say/do nothing. Likewise her bad days simply tell me I was right, and she does not value me, just needs me for her own benefits.<P>Scared...Until you get out of that destructive frame of mind there is nothing that your spouse can do or say that you wouldn't twist around into being contolling or manipulative, however well intended. I knocked myself out. Just about did eveything but commit suicide and bleed all over his shoes to get him to see the mistake he was making and the pain and love I really felt, it cannot be done until the WS is ready to see it.<P>Snl....Perhaps it was not getting him to see his mistakes that are the concern, he just wants to be loved. Anything else (anger, guilt, reason, etc.) will just be seen for the manipulation it is.<P>Scared...In comes Plan B. The WS is never going to see the needs their spouses are really filling in Plan A and how little of their needs are really being met by that wonderful OP (gag) until reality sets in on the affair sometimes. You don't feel the warmth of the bath until you get out of the tub. Sometimes this is the only way to get through and snap them out of it.<P>Snl....Plan B definitely has it's place, and is made very effective when children are there too (which is quite unfair when the BS automatically gets custody, and so there is a resentment factor too). But in general, a plan B for my kind of mindset is exactly the worst possible choice (unless a clearcut plan A preceeded it). I guess in fairness I must say my wife has done some plan A stuff (but dur to many LB, has been messed up), if she had done nothing is unlikely I would still be here. But we are a long long way from my trusting her emotionally. A plan B would have just verfied that, and in fact she has used a plan B as a sort of weapon, but when I say well maybe you are right, she decides isn't really what she wants. Again, she is being dishonest and manipulative when she does that.<P>Cali...sad_n_lonely, I wrote a separate post to you. I hear what you're saying, but is it like scaredinNY says, could I really do enough? <P>Snl....I am not saying judge yourself, I am just saying Plan A, and no LB would work best with me, and perhaps your husband who sounds like has my issues. But I do think there are limits, and most reasonable people will recognize when to stop (you), and when they are asking too much (your husband), theb plan B is ok, I agree with Harley's that if you cannot protect you must seperate.<P>Cali...I kept telling him last night he was hearing me through his filter. I said it didn't matter what I said or did he didn't want to believe I had changed so whatever I said or did was colored by the past. <P>Snl....Quit telling him how he thinks, makes us crazy, and is what causes the most violent reactions when my wife does this to me. I know you think you are doing it for the best, I know my wife thinks this too, but it is blatant manipulation, and it is that which we respond to (emotionally). Don't do it. He already knows everything you are saying, so in effect you are telling him he is to stupid to think for himself. I cannot emphasize this too much, we literally feel you are trying to kill us when you do this, show this to your husband and see if he does not agree.<P>Cali...He keeps saying "I can't forgive him, I can't ever trust him." Does he believe this? or is it a test...how many times do I have to say "I can learn." <P>Snl....No he does not believe this. It is a test, he is not interested in forgiveness, he wants to know if you will stop controlling him, if he can trust you if he makes himself vulnerable. He also does not want to control you (I know, that is hard for controllers to understand), so quit asking him to teach you. He wants you to figure it out on your own, and do it unilaterally, as this unfolds he will open up and tell you what you need to know, but not tell you what to do.....do you see? That is the test. BS think that it is the ws that must earn trust, and oftentimes is, but not always, sometimes it is the BS that needs to earn trust. As I do this with my wife (become vulnerable) she often reacts by telling me (in one way or another) why I shouldn't feel that way (or what way I should feel), I can take only a little, and something snaps, I am not a violent person, or given to rages, but have been enraged more in the last couple months than my entire life. It literally feels like I am fighting for my life. Maybe your husband feels similarly.<P>Cali...I feel like this has been some big test. How much can I do to her before she gives up? I feel like if I plan B, make him leave, that's his "Get out of Jail Free card." He can say "she made me leave."<P>Snl....Maybe, only you can assess this. My test (as cali) would be, have I done the A and done it right (application and length), and if I have, then go to B. If he is redeemable and worthy, he will recognize your fair and honest effort at change. Be his choice to respond or not. I don't know you at all (obviously, so could be wrong) but your um........ tone feels controlling and manipulative to me, and I have quite a bit of experience being on the recieveing end. My wife often masks her controlling efforts behind "reason" and good acts. But the message is always loud and clear, long as I behave (the world according to her) all will be well, but the moment I don't I will be shown the error of my ways. Not exactly my idea of love.<P>Hope this is of some assistance, I write a lot of this stuff cause my wife reads most of my posts. It is the only way I can communiucate even a little bit, and I still get chewed out (so to speak, she even objects to me telling my feelings to stangers, claiming I am being inaccurate...sheesh), although is improving. <P>

Sad_N_Lonely:<P><B> My only issue is that the marriage was broke, and not worthy/possible to repair, so should end for the benefit of all concerned. Along the way I fell in love with another, the timing is all that makes me a "bad" person, I should have divorced first, so I will be forever guilty, that is my consequence. </B><P>Then you should have ended it, before the 'fell in love' with another. You kept your wife in the dark. You allowed her to feel safe. My H keeps calling himself a 'monster.' I don't think he's a monster, but I do think he's not 'owning his own stuff.' <I> It's okay to feel guilty as long as it's not MY fault. </I> (i.e. the timing was all wrong.)<P><BR><B> I stopped caring what she thought, I just tried to stay out of her way, pull my weight, etc. </B> <P>Did you tell her she never listened to you? If you weren't talking, she couldn't listen. Did you 'dance' around what was really wrong? Can't you imagine how difficult it is to be around someone who is withdrawn--who avoids conflicts? I knew something was wrong, but he would never spit it out. Our arguments were the same everytime--because we never got down to his real issues. I started out in our early marriage crying, then yelling and then storming because he would never tell me what was really on his mind.<P><B> A person who uses anger always has the upper hand, and when they know spouse will not leave, the advantage is enormous. I did not go out and have an affair. I innocently made friends with someone and I watched in disbelief as a (bystander) something happen I had heretofore believed impossible for me (and same for ow). I have discovered emotional survival is powerful force in human relationships.</B><P>Advantage? Didn't you have the same 'advantage.' Didn't you pull just as big of a test? She may have yelled, screamed, been 'emotionally abusive,' but what did the A do to her inner self? How did it tear her apart. I suppose in the mind of a WH, this one act of betrayal is worth the years they have felt demeaned and abused. And you 'watched' as you innocently became involved? Emotional survival is a powerful force--how much emotion do you suppose a BS feels? How much do you suppose it takes to survive after an A is discovered?<P><B> Like anything, this has some truth, but varies by individual, has little to do with me, I am obsessively focused on facts and truth. I am well aware of my contributions to our disharmony, but I see no reason to not hold my wife accountable (or assume I am too biases to make a fair assesment) just cause it is me making the observations. </B><P>Historical records vary by the person who writes them. That's why the Civil War is also known as the War Between The States. If she's supposed to take into account your version of the truth, are you taking into account hers? Somewhere between you and her is the actual event. Perception and perspective is the thing.<P><B> It may be your truth, depends on the people. I am well aware of my wifes "good" days, and they pull me toward her, even though I say/do nothing. Likewise her bad days simply tell me I was right, and she does not value me, just needs me for her own benefits. </B><P>Even though you say or do nothing? This is what grinds me. Why not tell me you like the way I am doing something? When my H did something--even if I didn't like his method, I told him about it. Thanks for...Thanks for. Why does the bad outweigh the good? Why can he only remember my sweeping generalizations?<P><B> Perhaps it was not getting him to see his mistakes that are the concern, he just wants to be loved. Anything else (anger, guilt, reason, etc.) will just be seen for the manipulation it is. </B><P>You withdraw. She gets angry. You withdraw. She uses reason. You withdraw. She uses guilt. See a pattern? Both sides use manipulation. It is so frustrating to 'see' it an not be able to do anything about it! I just wish I had known about these principles a couple of years ago. <P><B> guess in fairness I must say my wife has done some plan A stuff (but dur to many LB, has been messed up), if she had done nothing is unlikely I would still be here. But we are a long long way from my trusting her emotionally. A plan B would have just verfied that, and in fact she has used a plan B as a sort of weapon, but when I say well maybe you are right, she decides isn't really what she wants. Again, she is being dishonest and manipulative when she does that. </B><P>SHE DOESN'T REALLY WANT YOU TO GO! Do you really want to leave? I want to say 'leave. find yourself. maybe you will come back to me.' But, I don't want him to go. I love him. But my love, because we are married is a trap. Her love is free, without conditions. When did marriage and commitment become 'conditions.' OWN YOUR STUFF. <P><B> I'm not sying judge yourself, I am just saying Plan A, and no LB would work best with me, and perhaps your husband who sounds like has my issues. But I do think there are limits, and most reasonable people will recognize when to stop (you), and when they are asking too much (your husband), theb plan B is ok, I agree with Harley's that if you cannot protect you must seperate. </B><P>But he is still seeing OW. I have plan A'd my rear off for four weeks (since I found this site) and he still said I don't do anything he says. When I asked him to point out what--he couldn't...because I HAVE DONE EVERYTHING HIS WAY for four weeks. Yesterday was first LB and that's all he's gonna remember for weeks.<P><B> Quit telling him how he thinks, makes us crazy, and is what causes the most violent reactions when my wife does this to me. I know you think you are doing it for the best, I know my wife thinks this too, but it is blatant manipulation, and it is that which we respond to (emotionally). Don't do it. He already knows everything you are saying, so in effect you are telling him he is to stupid to think for himself. I cannot emphasize this too much, we literally feel you are trying to kill us when you do this, show this to your husband and see if he does not agree.</B><P>Why can he tell me I can't change? I will never change? He doesn't trust that I will change?<P><B> No he does not believe this. It is a test, he is not interested in forgiveness, he wants to know if you will stop controlling him, if he can trust you if he makes himself vulnerable. He also does not want to control you (I know, that is hard for controllers to understand), so quit asking him to teach you. He wants you to figure it out on your own, and do it unilaterally, as this unfolds he will open up and tell you what you need to know, but not tell you what to do.....do you see? That is the test. BS think that it is the ws that must earn trust, and oftentimes is, but not always, sometimes it is the BS that needs to earn trust. As I do this with my wife (become vulnerable) she often reacts by telling me (in one way or another) why I shouldn't feel that way (or what way I should feel), I can take only a little, and something snaps, I am not a violent person, or given to rages, but have been enraged more in the last couple months than my entire life. It literally feels like I am fighting for my life. Maybe your husband feels similarly. </B><P>No, I don't understand.<BR><I> He wants you to figure it out on your own, and do it unilaterally, as this unfolds he will open up and tell you what you need to know, but not tell you what to do.....do you see? That is the test. </I><BR>He gets to test me? I have to figure it out on my own? But he doesn't? If we use MB principles wouldn't that be better? If he won't tell me his needs, how can I meet them? I'm punching in the dark.<P><B> Maybe, only you can assess this. My test (as cali) would be, have I done the A and done it right (application and length), and if I have, then go to B. If he is redeemable and worthy, he will recognize your fair and honest effort at change. Be his choice to respond or not. I don't know you at all (obviously, so could be wrong) but your um........ tone feels controlling and manipulative to me, and I have quite a bit of experience being on the recieveing end. My wife often masks her controlling efforts behind "reason" and good acts. But the message is always loud and clear, long as I behave (the world according to her) all will be well, but the moment I don't I will be shown the error of my ways. Not exactly my idea of love.<BR></B><P>I agree I have to learn to talk to him without making selfish demands and judgements...LB's, but isn't withdrawal and defeat just as much as an LB for me? "I can't win, so I won't try?" Isn't that what the whole 'leave the marriage thing is about?' She's getting what she wants (you think), but I'm not, that's not fair. I deserve. I deserve....<P>We deserve half a husband? A husband who is emotionally withdrawn? Who withholds love and affection? If we use guilt, anger, reason, aren't you using love and affection as your manipulation? "I'm here aren't I? I'm doing what you said (grudgingly) aren't I?" <P>We use the 'tools' we have. Our marriages suffer. If you don't have the right tools to fix something, do you throw it away even though it can be fixed with the 'right' tools?<BR>Do you take years of your life and say "oops, you're the wrong one. I goofed. I really want... like we're a pair of shoes that no longer fits?"<P>My H is family. My mother 'emotionally' abandoned me from age 12, yet I could no more cut her out of my life and forgive her than I could my H. When I married him and took his name, it was with the understanding it was forever. He said, "no divorce." Now because it no longer works for him, I'm just supposed to acquiese? step aside. say, that's okay. stomp on me somemore?<P><p>[This message has been edited by InShockinCali (edited June 08, 2001).]

I wouldn't put too much stock into what snl has to say. He is one of those fogheaded WS. His comments are definitely not objective or really helpful.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR><B>I wouldn't put too much stock into what snl has to say. He is one of those fogheaded WS. His comments are definitely not objective or really helpful. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks, KalGrl, but it was so cathartic to put my answers in writing. It gave me a certain perspective, a certain clarity.

Ok, deep breath here, am not looking for an argument (do that enuf with my own wife), just trying to (maybe) give you some useful insight into your husbands mindset, not saying is right or wrong particularly, I only deal in reality and what is (not what should be). My observation is that you are trying to "make" the reality be what you want it to be, and shame on your husband (and perhaps me as his stand in for the moment) for not "seeing" the truth. You may be absolutely right in all you say, but do you wish to be right or deal with the realities your husband may be seeing? Yes, the goal is to blow away the "fog" and hopefully restore what "you" think should be (does that mean your husband must agree to your idea of how things should be?), be that as it may, my purpose here is to suggest the methods you are using may not be in your best interests for that goal. But I may be completely wrong too.<P><BR>Cali....Sad_N_Lonely:My only issue is that the marriage was broke, and not worthy/possible to repair, so should end for the benefit of all concerned. Along the way I fell in love with another, the timing is all that makes me a "bad" person, I should have divorced first, so I will be forever guilty, that is my consequence. <P>Cali...Then you should have ended it, before the 'fell in love' with another. You kept your wife in the dark. You allowed her to feel safe. My H keeps calling himself a 'monster.' I don't think he's a monster, but I do think he's not 'owning his own stuff.' It's okay to feel guilty as long as it's not MY fault. (i.e. the timing was all wrong.)<P>Snl....Well we are getting off track of what is in our minds, and more into behavioural arguments. My position is that this behaviour is inevitable (ask the harley's), not that it is right, or that I (and your H), are right, we own it...well at least I do. Have never told w was her fault, or an accident, I choose to proceed knowing it was unfair to her.<P>Cali...Did you tell her she never listened to you? If you weren't talking, she couldn't listen. Did you 'dance' around what was really wrong? Can't you imagine how difficult it is to be around someone who is withdrawn--who avoids conflicts? I knew something was wrong, but he would never spit it out. Our arguments were the same everytime--because we never got down to his real issues. I started out in our early marriage crying, then yelling and then storming because he would never tell me what was really on his mind.<P>Snl...I differ from your husband on this, I did most of the talking, my wife was the avoider, and used anger to hide. I just finally gave up, when is enuf enuf cali? It may feel good to say never, but that is not human reality. In any event anger is always wrong, and your retreat into anger insured nothing would ever get resolved. Then you justify it by blaming his avoidance.<P>snl...A person who uses anger always has the upper hand, and when they know spouse will not leave, the advantage is enormous. I did not go out and have an affair. I innocently made friends with someone and I watched in disbelief as a (bystander) something happen I had heretofore believed impossible for me (and same for ow). I have discovered emotional survival is powerful force in human relationships.<P>cali...Advantage? Didn't you have the same 'advantage.' Didn't you pull just as big of a test? She may have yelled, screamed, been 'emotionally abusive,' but what did the A do to her inner self? How did it tear her apart. I suppose in the mind of a WH, this one act of betrayal is worth the years they have felt demeaned and abused. And you 'watched' as you innocently became involved? Emotional survival is a powerful force--how much emotion do you suppose a BS feels? How much do you suppose it takes to survive after an A is discovered?<P>snl...mixing apples and oranges here. I did not set out to have an A. And I appreciate my wife did not deliberately abuse me either. I just think it pointless to compare injuries, the point is to understand each others mindset NOW and deal with that. My wife is still using some anger despite knowing the price it has cost her. But knows she must stop (as must I talking to ow). As for emotion of wife, hard as it may be for you to believe I (and perhaps your husband) actually didn't believe she really cared much (loved me). I made no secret of the friend in the beginning, talked about her with wife etc, she was totally disinterested even when I started spending hours a day talking to her. (wife did not realize when got that involved, but made no effort to investigate either, just let me be on my comp.).<P>snl...It may be your truth, depends on the people. I am well aware of my wifes "good" days, and they pull me toward her, even though I say/do nothing. Likewise her bad days simply tell me I was right, and she does not value me, just needs me for her own benefits. <P>Cali...Even though you say or do nothing? This is what grinds me. Why not tell me you like the way I am doing something? When my H did something--even if I didn't like his method, I told him about it. Thanks for...Thanks for. Why does the bad outweigh the good? Why can he only remember my sweeping generalizations?<P>snl...cali this is the problem, you want something and are frustrated when it does not happen. I can only tell you I notice when she does some good, but I find it very very difficult to tell her...I don't know why, and wonder myself, but the feeling is very real cali. I think I am afraid if I reward her (so to speak) she will keep trying harder, and I maybe want it to end, cause I don't believe she will ever love me. Do you see? If your husband feels this way, telling him not too is counter-productive....just do it cali, and he will either come around or not, but whenever you suggest (in any way) he should respond you defeat the good you have done.<P>Cali...You withdraw. She gets angry. You withdraw. She uses reason. You withdraw. She uses guilt. See a pattern? Both sides use manipulation. It is so frustrating to 'see' it an not be able to do anything about it! I just wish I had known about these principles a couple of years ago.<P>Snl...me too. But there is a further complication. Often children are used as a weapon, she threatened to divorce me and take the kids whenever I pushed to hard for resolutions. That insured my compliance, and earned her a vast amount of repressed enmity. I hope you have not done the same. <P>SHE DOESN'T REALLY WANT YOU TO GO! Do you really want to leave? I want to say 'leave. find yourself. maybe you will come back to me.' But, I don't want him to go. I love him. But my love, because we are married is a trap. Her love is free, without conditions. When did marriage and commitment become 'conditions.' OWN YOUR STUFF. <P>Cali...But he is still seeing OW. I have plan A'd my rear off for four weeks (since I found this site) and he still said I don't do anything he says. When I asked him to point out what--he couldn't...because I HAVE DONE EVERYTHING HIS WAY for four weeks. Yesterday was first LB and that's all he's gonna remember for weeks.<P>Snl...I didn't "see" ow but I did talk to her for 3 more months, as I tried to deal with my wife's reaction to this. My suggestion is do not "argue" discuss with him, we are not going to be rational, count on it. Just do it (plan A), see that he knows where to read about what you are doing (so he understands). As for LB, just apologize for it, and tell him it violated the committment you made to yourself. That will do you more good than any explainging or justifying. He is used to your verbal skills, and does not want to hear them. He wants to know he is worth your doing something unilaterally unfair to you, but fair to him. It is important, trust me it counts.<P>Quit telling him how he thinks, makes us crazy, and is what causes the most violent reactions when my wife does this to me. I know you think you are doing it for the best, I know my wife thinks this too, but it is blatant manipulation, and it is that which we respond to (emotionally). Don't do it. He already knows everything you are saying, so in effect you are telling him he is to stupid to think for himself. I cannot emphasize this too much, we literally feel you are trying to kill us when you do this, show this to your husband and see if he does not agree.<P>cali...Why can he tell me I can't change? I will never change? He doesn't trust that I will change?<P>Snl...I say the same things to my wife, and I do so cause I think it is the truth. That's not the issue, the issue is will I stick around long enuf to find out it is not the truth. That's all that counts now, and all I suggest you focus on, not driving him away. Besides every time you do what you have in the past, you just prove he is right, and all the previous was just a mask. You will have to work long and hard to regain his emotional trust. I don't trust my wife at all, and figue she will continue to use anger when stressed enuf, and not meet my EN unless it suits her to do so.<P>Cali..No, I don't understand.<BR>snl..He wants you to figure it out on your own, and do it unilaterally, as this unfolds he will open up and tell you what you need to know, but not tell you what to do.....do you see? That is the test. <P>cali...He gets to test me? I have to figure it out on my own? But he doesn't? If we use MB principles wouldn't that be better? If he won't tell me his needs, how can I meet them? I'm punching in the dark.<P>snl...no, it is not fair, but it is the way it is. All of this stuff fits in some kind of a matrix, your marriage up till now, his A, your reaction, it is not discrete stuff, is all mixed up together, so unraveling it may seem odd. I am not telling you what to do, I am just trying to give you insight into how we think. My issue with my w is fundamental, she does not love me, she needs me, and she is determined that I fit the picture of the husband she needs, this makes me feel worthless, and is the reason I react as I do. Is my feeling justified? Who knows, but makes no difference, cause is my emotional reality.<P>cali...I agree I have to learn to talk to him without making selfish demands and judgements...LB's, but isn't withdrawal and defeat just as much as an LB for me? "I can't win, so I won't try?" Isn't that what the whole 'leave the marriage thing is about?' She's getting what she wants (you think), but I'm not, that's not fair. I deserve. I deserve....<P>snl...yes, you are being abused. I know I am hurting my wife, and when she points it out, I just tell her I don't care, and say something even more hurtful. When she cries, I get angry instead of protective. I don't know why exactly, and feels kind of scarey actually, but somehow it is about protecting myself from something. Probably from reconnecting to her (and being sucked back into the emotional prison). Then we feel pretty awful for being so mean to someone we are suppose to protect, and figure is best all around to just leave. This cycle must be broken, and it is the BS role to break it I guess.<P>cali...We deserve half a husband? A husband who is emotionally withdrawn? Who withholds love and affection? If we use guilt, anger, reason, aren't you using love and affection as your manipulation? "I'm here aren't I? I'm doing what you said (grudgingly) aren't I?" <P>snl...you keep talking about you, and what is fair, and what you deserve, this is probably part of what got you disconnected from H in the first place. You may be absolutely right, but something emotionally is seriously amiss, you must focus there, and it may not appear "rational". Yes, is true we all manipulate, but inevitably one is better than the other (especially anger users), the goal is to stop the manipulation alltogether, and it starts with the BS, the ws has already made his choice clear.<P>cali...We use the 'tools' we have. Our marriages suffer. If you don't have the right tools to fix something, do you throw it away even though it can be fixed with the 'right' tools? Do you take years of your life and say "oops, you're the wrong one. I goofed. I really want... like we're a pair of shoes that no longer fits?"<P>Snl....A fair argument, and one that may work. I was done, ready to go, nothing was working. But in my obsessive compulsion for fairness (and with encouragement from ow not to leave) I surfed about trying to learn more about marital psychology and found this site. I showed my wife, and studied the stuff, it was a different tool, and a good one, I could find no real flaw, or reason not to try it, so here I am. I don't want to do this, if I am to be lonely in my marriage, would prefer to be divorced and truly alone. My wife has pledged to change, a daunting task for her (based on past efforts), and I suppose I must change too, and seperate from my friend as well (and it is a true friendship, not some foggy neediness). The risk is doing all this stuff and getting nowhere (in the love dept) and being terribly disappointed. <P>My H is family. My mother 'emotionally' abandoned me from age 12, yet I could no more cut her out of my life and forgive her than I could my H. When I married him and took his name, it was with the understanding it was forever. He said, "no divorce." Now because it no longer works for him, I'm just supposed to acquiese? step aside. say, that's okay. stomp on me somemore?<P>snl...It is no longer working for you either. One of the reasons I have contemplated breaking my vows is my inability to love my wife as she needs to be loved too. She wants to be loved by someone different than me apparently (elsewise why would she try to change me and be angry when I don't comply). In any event, if a marriage does not work for one, it should end, it can only be when both want to be there. Would you bind your husband with dutiful vows if he does not want to be married to you? Or should he just keep that to himself? But that is a philosophic question. Personally I would prefer someone who does not love me (as evidenced by their behaviour)...just leave. As for a spouse being family...they are not, never will be...they are a choice, one we make everyday to continue with. Your mother will always be so, no matter what. It interests me that human beings who live an average of 80 years or so, will consider the voluntary living with another for a few years some kind of special bond. If we marry at 20, we can literally have 3 20 year marriages, each would be "family"...yes? IMO the bond comes not from cohabitating, or vows, but from the fitting and unconditional loving of TWO people, won't happen if one (or both) is not doing it right. But that is another thread, and not relevant to this one. <P>

Kal...Ah yes, the life of a ws is a lonely one, we are not to be valued, I understand that. My role is not to be an advisor per se, but to give feedback re my particular type of ws, and perhaps be thusly helpful. Contrary to popular belief, we do have feelings, thoughts, and reasons for what we do, the better the BS understand us, the greater likelihood of recovery methinks.

SnL,<P>I know others aren't always appreciative of your opinions, but I am. You are saying exactly what my husband says.<P>He has said he will read books. Have you? Which one would you suggest would be best for him to start with?<P>He says he always listens to me. And he tries to do what I ask. The stuff you write gives me chills.<P>I guess what we both have to remember is that we got married with ideals and because we didn't have the right tools to nurture each other....well, the saying with familiarity breeds contempt, comes to mind. <P>I DO LOVE MY HUSBAND. The thought of him has always taken my breath away AND I ALWAYS let him know this. But I can see your/his point of view. I have owned my stuff. <P>I had two trainings since January (pre-A) that showed me some stuff about myself I didn't realize. One, I was a controller. Two, I used anger and agression at home whereas at work I was cooperative and collaborative. Three, because of divorce and abandonment issues from my childhood, I tend to use only two voices: child and parent. One of his common cries is that I talk to him as a parent. BUT I DID NOT REALIZE THIS. I thought parent and adult voice were same. I KNOW THIS and have vowed to change. Since finding this out, I have not done any of it...well, except the anger I showed yesterday...which may well have been an outpouring of hurt. To hear the man who used to say "I love you" say it to someone else....ICK!<P>Thanks again, SnL. Please feel free to 'talk' like my H anytime. It really does give me good perspective.

Well first I kinda read the MB site in general, having found the forums first. Interestingly after I told my wife (who doesn't much care for comps or forums, especially after losing her husband to ow on a forum) she did not come here. She was focused on counselling.. secular and pastoral, as well as convincing me of the error of my ways and playing on my guilt and good nature (why not, always worked before). Strangely enuf I was telling her about plan A and such, weird actually. Eventually she became interested in the site (and was feeling hopeless anyways), and came to see. I had posted some frank stuff (mostly cause she will never listen) and did not tell her my user name. Well she figured it out right quick (probably putting in all the correct details of our family was not too bright), and cause I talked about loving the ow she came unglued, was a bad couple days. I explained this was not going away by ignoring it (as in past strategy), that I was profoundly unhappy and disillusioned with our marriage, and that I didn't really care if she liked it or not. But that if she wanted to do something the info here seemed interesting. She started out skeptical, but became more interested and ordered all the books...his needs her needs, surviving an affair, love busters...as well as dr phil books. I just read em as they arrived, makes no real difference I suppose, they are a little redundant, and very readable, the harley's do a good job. But under the circumstances surviving an affair is probably the best first one. DON'T read them with him, underlying discussing, just let him read what he wants, and discuss when he feels like it. When he does, just listen, don't analyze. IMO this stuff is all that will work, regular counselling is a waste of time. BUT if anyone has underlying personality disorders/emotional issues, other intervention for that issue is probably good, such as you mentioned you did. Also amazon has tons of self help books, reading the reviews and ordering those that seem to apply to you can be helpful, just take em with a grain of salt. Knowledge is the key to improvement of individuals and marriages. The harley's add the component of specific behaviours which fills the gap between knowledge and results. As long as your husband stays, and is willing to do research, your prospects are good, so don't do anything to push him away, and expect nothing in return, you will be rewarded in due time. If that does not work, go to plan B. I don't know what will happen to my wife and I, we have a serious disconnection, she says the same things you do, always loved me, I am not so sure. I think maybe she loves the idea of loving me, and just needs me. In any event I am not sure I love her, your husband may feel the same, and it will hurt like heck. My wife too overheard a minute of phone conversation, and the I love you was difficult. Her response was to get angry though and mention it over and over since (not cool). I mean what did she think, I was hanging around with someone I disliked? So in some ways we ws think our spouses are in a fog, they trivialize our feelings for op, think it is stupid, and all they have to do is say come back I really do love you, and will show you...not that simple. Maybe it is sometimes (stupid), but if your H is a worthy man, then he loves another with reason, honesty and integrity. When you complain and belittle his love for op, you are really belittleing him and any love he has for you....think about it. My wife denigrates the ow, and it irritates me a great deal, does she think I would just care about some low life loser? Or am too stupid to see I am being used or something? Not very flattering of the man she supposedly loves. Anyways, more food for thought. Feel free to ask anytime. Personally I find writing helps me understand myself, so I am generally willing, and do not mind being chastised. I am cognizant of the enormous pain on this site, and that I am symbolic of much of the cause, also wh are in short supply, so I feel um..... uselful I guess. My basic philosophy on life is to make lemonade from lemons, so I guess it makes me feel a little better if anything I write is helpful to someone else. For the record if haven't seen my story elsewhere, I have been with wife 28 years (23m, 4 kids) never looked at ow even in the slightest (despite meeting hundreds of women in their homes as part of my work), and have strong Christian beliefs.