I have been without contact with OW for 4 months now. My affair lasted for 2 years was very deep and i was at the point of divorcing W until she begged me to stay. I don't hate W but don't love her either. We hardly argue as i tend to just agree with her most of the time although sometimes i feel like screaming, i feel trapped. She's not too trying or suffocating me just yet but am completely indifferent to her, I don't see her as a potential lover of any sort. When i look at her i see the mother of my kids. Why do i feel this way? Although she may feel there is hope or chance, i don't think so because the M is so flawed to ever be repaired or build upon. <P>We have had no sexual contact for sometime already. The marriage deteriorated a few years b4 the affair. She has expressed that she wants me but at this moment i can't. I can't make love to her, there is absolutely no desire to do so. I feel bad for her. How do i stop comparing her to OW? <BR>

Hi there Pain<P>I’m really in no position to give advice. Specially not today (big setback - I met with MM). But I just wanted to write something to you. I have been reading your posts around these boards and they make me sad. As you know I’m on the other side of this triangle being the ”OW”. I know that many will disagree with me but I don’t believe in staying in a unhappy marriage. As I see it you have not taken the easy way out but you have really tried to make it work. I know that you have said that you are staying for the kids. That is a good thing but I don’t believe that you should stay at all costs. Kids feel when something is not right. I say this more from a personal experience. My parents divorced when I was 11 (there wore no OP’s involved). The marriage just didn’t work. I was so relieved when they got divorced because the atmosphere at home had become fake and quite frankly it was terrible. I know that they tried to stay together for my sake (I was a nosy child and overheard them discuss this). The ”pretending-act” was so Crystal clear. Even though they tried to be happy and work things out It just didn’t work and It only got worse.<P>I’m not saying that this is how it is for everyone but this is how it was for me. And of course I have wished many times that my parents wore still together and we all wore one happy family but sometimes It just doesn’t work out.<P>I think that you know deep down in your heart what you should do. In any case I wish you the best of luck.<P>As for your GF I’m too sad to write about that today - perhaps tomorrow <BR>

Painforever, yours reads like a post written by someone deep in depression. It also sounds like you are trying to convince yourself (and everyone else out here) that the marriage is over and asking for permission to end it. Well, you're not getting it from me. That's something between you and your wife. <P>Sitting around and moping is not going going to fix your relationship. Especially with a child involved, do you really think you have a right to throw it all away without counseling, reading, serious soul-searching and honestly giving it all you've got? What have you ACTIVELY done to try and see your wife in a different light? How have you ACTIVELY tried to make yours a better marriage to be in? <P>Your wife still wants you. That's a great start. Even after what you have put your family through she is willing to work on it. Have you explored WHY the marriage deteriorated the way it did? Sounds like she's accepting her part in it if she's so willing to work it out. <P>As for comparing her to the OW, you won't stop until you are out of that FOG. You won't stop comparing until you want to, simple as that.<P>Attitude and your approach to the situation has A LOT to do with whether or not you r marriage survivies this. WHETHER YOU BELIEVE YOU CAN DO A THING OR NOT YOU ARE RIGHT!<P>Good luck to you,<P>Snow<BR>

Painforever,<P>I have been where you are. When I first found this site and began posting. I too felt there was no hope for my marriage. I thought that maybe on here I could find someone or something that would validate what I felt. I just knew that my marriage would never work out. That there was no love left and it couldn't be found again. That I was just stuck in this loveless marriage. But then I started reading<BR>Surviving an Affair. And I decided that it was all just a mind set. <P>First I would suggest that you see your doctor to see if you are in a depression and need medication.<BR>Next, you have to get to decide that your family is worth<BR>learning to love again. Think back to why you married your wife in the first place. What things did you do together?<BR>What did you talk about and share with each other?<BR>Start by going on dates, even tho you live in the same house. Make dates and go out. Love isn't something you fall into. It is something you decide. You choose to love someone or not love someone. She is your wife, so just make that choice again. And then work towards it. Those are the things I have done. Oh it's not easy. In fact, it's very hard. Hardest thing I have ever done. Many days I don't feel any love, but I choose to act as if I do.<BR>And slowly that feeling is returning. But if I spent all my time thinking negatively and feeling like I was missing out on something else, then of course, those feelings wouldn't stand a chance of returning. Please, email me if you want to know more. my family is waiting for me to go out and have some fun this afternoon. my email address if<BR>deblynne_45@yahoo.com. <P>But you can learn to love your wife again if you choose to.<BR>It's all up to you.<BR>dlm(debbie)

painforever,<P>I agree that you seem to be in a very deep depression. You will not beable to feel much love for your wife or be able to work on your marriage if you are depressed.<P>Have you read the Dr. Harley books, specifically "Surviving an Affair" and the material on this website? Have you and your wife gone to counseling? Have you complete the emotional needs and personal history questionaire? These things are all part of the MB work. Without them you will fail.<P>Z<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

I just wanted to add one more thing- 4 months is not that long (although it may feel like it). Can you give it your all for the next 8 months and see how you feel then? Many posts I have read here suggest it can take a year for the ex-WS to feel good again.<BR>I suppose that if after a full year of working your honest best at your marriage, and you are not happy, you could leave knowing you tryed your best. I suspect though, that you may feel differently towards your wife by then.

<BR>To Snow and Humble: Hi guys, I read the thread Snow started for Humble – felt pretty weird reading 2 people almost arguing on what is or isn’t going on in my life. Anyway no offence taken by any of it. <P>Thanks for u concerns but no I am not clinically depressed. I was very depressed for about 2 months when it first happened, couldn’t sleep, eat, think anything except OW, work etc but now I am regaining my focus slowly. However what I feel for my M remains. <P>Nope I have not willingly made the decision to work on my marriage. At this moment its mainly pressure and guilt that I am here. When I think of divorce I think of how my 2 kids’ lives will be significantly affected by it, from both financial and emotional point of view. That’s v. hard to deal with especially when I have worked by my [censored] off trying to give them a standard n quality of life I never had. As painful and harsh as this may sound, my W was of no direct relevance in arriving at my decision. <P>Snow I don’t believe in M counsellors too, I have been to a few while recovering from my W’s fling a few years back. While it may be comforting for a while, things just got back to the way it was after that. The reason why I came here was at the advice of my OW also I am trying to look for others who feels the same as i am. Unfortunately there are not many WSs in here, and those who are here are ever so determined to make things work and are guilty of the affair. Me and W never pretended our M was all hunky dory, after all I did leave home for over 2 years before D day. And that had nothing to do with A. <P>Our problem is not really about surviving an A but more to do with me and her alone. Of course the A doesn’t help one bit. B4 the A I have tried hard, things mentioned in Plan A (on my part more than hers) but it didn’t work. You can take my separation as Plan B and that didn’t work on M either. Initially I thought being away would bring us closer as b4 I separated I travelled abroad a lot. Although unhappy at first, the separation made me discover the person I am and I liked him, I started to enjoy things and basically moved on. Of course I made a BIG mistake when I started my A but on top of recovering as a person myself this woman completed me and I was blissfully happy. Now W is so determined to make it work and my conscience tells me that I have to at least try to prove to her something. That’s why I feel cheated of my happiness. Honestly I never felt any guilt with the A, how can I feel guilty being with someone I love. Now I don’t really like myself all over again because I am not being true to him. <P>That’s why its hard to recover feelings for her, I have searched deep b4 I started posting in here and now too. When I look at her I see the mother of my kids. I don’t see a potential lover or confidant or anything. But yes I think 4 months is too short of a period to come up with any conclusion. I am trying to get my act together but the sad reality is sometimes the M doesn’t have a happy ending. I know it will be painful for all, for W, me and mostly for the kids and no I don’t want that. I am just going with the flow, we’ve been out a few times, I am uncomfortable being with W alone its hard to enjoy it. Its different when there is an underlying feeling of love for the other I suppose. What am I doing wrong? Debbie I will email you later today, thanks for ur concern. I think there is also a difference between men and women going through recovery. <BR>

Painforever, why did you go back home after being gone for 2 years saying you liked the person you became. You said "Although unhappy at first, the separation made me discover the person I am and I liked him, I started to enjoy things and basically moved on. Of course I made a BIG mistake when I started my A but on top of recovering as a person myself this woman completed me and I was blissfully happy. Now W is so determined to make it work and my conscience tells me that I have to at least try to prove to her something. That’s why I feel cheated of my happiness. Honestly I never felt any guilt with the A, how can I feel guilty being with someone I love. Now I don’t really like myself all over again because I am not being true to him."<P>Sounds like you are resenting your wife for trying to make the marriage work instead of giving up on it as you have, so you can go be with the OW. You say that you are back in the house to try to prove something. The only thing that you are doing is feeling sorry for yourself, how is that supposed to be "Trying". Has your W ever been to this site. Maybe she does want to try but does not have the right "tools" to go forward. She may be as lost as you on how to get this thing started. And as far as taking advice from an OW, this is a board for MARRIAGEBUILDERS, not a board, of "WELL IF YOUR UNHAPPY AT THIS TIME IN YOUR LIFE THEN LEAVE"! That is why affairs happen so often, instead of dealing and trying to heal the problems, people find it easier to run away from them by starting an affair as an ESCAPE route, OP is the spouse's escape from reality, home.<BR>

I came back because W was literally ill. She wouldn't get out of bed, wouldn't eat and was crying constantly. I was afraid for my children. She begged me to stay, she didn't care if i didn't love her but i had to stay. She was loosing so much weight so fast, unable to do anything and begged to give her another try. What else can i do? On top of that i had pressures from family as well. Correct i didn't deal with the problem, and perhaps i didn't try enough but i wouldn't say i didn't try at all, right up till before i left i tried but nothing. Suddenly she sees me getting on enjoying my life and i am feeling and looking better than i did before and yes she decided she wanted me back. At this point in time i have in my head moved, I really did. So can i be blame for feeling this way?

Painforever<P>I have to tell you that I have a lot of respect for you and I think what you are doing is definitely a step in the right direction - especially when you consider things in the long term <P>Our situation is very similar to yours - but with one main difference - a BIG main difference - my H decided to go for the OW. Like you, he works overseas, we have young children - who absolutely adore their father and vice versa (I think!). H also works hard to be able to provide a lifestyle that he couldn't have when he was growing up. <P>We have been married 12 years and things went downhill during the last 2 - because of -I assume his EA with a coworker, which finally became a PA. The way you describe yourself is exactly how I see my husband - he felt trapped, staying out of guilt etc etc. It made me miserable because although I could see what was happening to him - I couldn't do anything about it. He was completely out of my reach - emotionally, physically etc etc. It was like he had built a wall around himself. His indifference to me and the kids was killing me - and I have to admit that I reached a point where I said to him that I couldn't see him suffer like this anymore - and that I loved him enough to want for him to be happy. I didn't want to be guilty of turning him into a "dead person" so to speak. (All this is before I had heard of MB). His words were that if he didn't leave and just forced himself to stay, he would always wonder what he could have had with OW - and would regret it the rest of his life etc etc etc. He even mentioned a few suicidal thoughts.<P>This all happened over Easter, and I have no idea where it will lead - but I think your wife is a lucky woman because at least you want to stay and make an attempt. I would give anything for my H to give even 1% - I would give the other 99%. But no - his immediate pleasure is more important. So, like I said - thinking long term I have no doubt in my mind that you've done the right thing. Your kids will definitely respect you for it. I can see my 9 year old already caring less and less about his father.<P>Good luck.<P>Shakti<BR>

Just like the poster before me, my husband's ex did let him go after realizing that she didn't want him in a marriage that he wasn't happy in and didn't want to stay in. Like your wife, she wanted to be intimate and he couldn't do it. His feelings towards her were a lot like your feelings are towards your wife. He said he'd lay on the couch in the familyroom listening to her breath in their bedroom and he'd have panic attacks at the thought of ever having to return to that bed. He too tried to stay in the marriage out of guilt. He said in the end they were both miserable. I too remember the time I had made up my mind that I wanted out of my marriage. The mixed feelings of guilt, unhappiness and depression is unbelievable. I got to the point where I resented my ex husband for even being there. It was hard to even be in the same house as him let a lone have any conversations. I do know for me, if I would have stayed I would have ended up hating him. Deep down you are the only person that knows when enough is enough. I also know that my point of view is not favored on these boards but sometimes the marriage just can't make it. But, if four months ago you made up your mind to try and make it work then maybe you haven't given it a fair chance. The difference between you and I was the fact that I didn't want to give it a chance, I wanted out. The single factor just may be what you need to someday make it work.

Dear painforever,<P>First of all, congratulations for doing the RIGHT THING. Not just for your W and your family, but for yourself. Trust me, you would have never forgiven yourself, had you gone for the OW. She is *nothing* compared to your wife. Your wife is loyal. Forgiving. Faithful. Your W wants to work on the marriage and make a family again. The OW ... well, hmmm ... the OW doesn't sound like much of a woman compared to your W, does she? Could you honestly trust an adulterous woman? One who wrecked your family, helped destroy your marriage (had a 50% hand in it), with little or no regret, to meet her selfish needs? <P>No, you could not. You would never be able to trust her. Please read Harley's "Surviving an Affair." The OP is the BIGGEST ENEMY to yourself and your marriage. Yup, that's what I said - the OW is your biggest enemy. She is not your friend. She does not really love you. She is only in it for what she can get out of it for herself. Do not be deceived, my man ... this is not true love. It never will be.<P>Now. Getting back to how to become a good H to your W. Read SAA. Realize that what you are going through is a withdrawal, somewhat akin to a drug addict or an alcoholic. Your craving for the OW will fade only with time and a lot of distance. But first of all, you have to commit to the principle of NO CONTACT - ever again. One thing I think that many WS try to do is to somehow keep the OP in their lives as a "back-up" plan. You cannot do this. As far as you and your marriage is concerned, you must give up the OW forever. Just pretend that she never existed.<P>Please be kind to your W ... she is the one who truly loves you. She has given you this blessed opportunity to love her and be loved in return. Even though she might be angry with you, she is giving you the opportunity to remain a part of her life. When she vents, just remember - she has every reason to be angry. This *is* your doing - she did absolutely nothing wrong.<P>Patience. Time. No contact. That's the key!<P>belld

1. You came to the right site - you will get a lot of support here! Post often! It is incredible the amount of growth you will make within a relatively short time, it is nice to find that you may help others grow as well.<P>2. The Harley's talk about the "love bank". I would like to take a stab at diagnosing your situation: Your love bank was running low. It simply runs low because your wife did not/does not do the things that you emotionally need to fill it up. Why she did not/does not deposit into your love bank could be several factors; it could be she is trying to fill your lovebank with deposits that is "foreign currency"... Perhaps she is doing some of the things for you that are not priority on your list? Or she is narcisstic - and is extremely selfish.... Could it be that you two were not spending 15 hours a week quality time? Could it be that your wife lied to you or was so mean and ugly that she withdrew all of her deposits? For whatever reason, YOUR LOVEBANK WAS EMPTY.<P>3. Now you have this deprived love-bank, and OW started depositing the currency your love-bank needed. You allowed the deposits. She (as in most new relationships) did not make any withdrawals. <P>4. Now you are not getting your lovebank filled anymore by OW or W. You miss having your lovebank filled, not the OW! This is the Harley theories. If this makes any kind of sense to you, then go back and read the Basic Concepts, and print off the emotional needs questionaire for you and your wife. <P>5. Then tell your wife what your emotional needs are..... And consider incorporating the other key ingredients of the basic concepts into your marriage. I guarantee you, this will work if you do it. <P>Good luck, and keep us updated.

I am sorry Bell but I don’t think it’s fair for you to make any sort of judgement against OW. You can criticise me all u want but not her. I am the one who didn’t tell her I that I was married, it took me a year b4 I did that. I told her later I was separated and was waiting for my 2 years to expire b4 I filed for divorce. I am the only person to be blame for this affair. Sometimes I wonder why some (not all) of you can be so harsh on the OW and so forgiving on the WS. I wouldn’t even begin to compare W with her because OW will win hands down. What you said struck a chord in me and as always I am propelled to defend her. When I told her that I needed to stay with my family to give it a last shot, she was the one who let me go. If u ask me now, I wish my W didn’t want me back. Even if I don’t ever see her again & things get back to a comfortable level with W, I won’t forget her. As for her being selfish? Wonder how u came to that conclusion. But u r right about one thing, I would never have forgiven myself if I just ran away with OW. She realised that too and knew if we were to have a happy ending I had to at least ‘attempt to try’.<P>Shakti, thanks for ur post. Immediately after breaking up with OW, I had some dark suicidal thoughts in my head as well. However it something I know I will never be able to do. I feel almost dead too sometimes.<P>I know I am the only person who knows when enough is enough. I am waiting to see if I could get comfortable with her and whether that is enough in itself. I know what you mean about being resentful too. I don’t want it to end that way though, if it still can’t work I want her to realise that the M is just dead. <P>The love bank explanation doesn’t make much sense to me. So if I am only missing my love bank being filled it doesn’t matter who fills it then, is that it? That isn’t possible. Anyway….<BR>

<p>[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: needingmercy ]</p>

Painforever,<P>I probably do a really bad job of explaining the "love-bank".... But yes, you can have the exact feelings you have had for OW with your wife, if it is your wife that is filling your lovebank. <P>Years and years and years of proven research have allowed the Harleys (EXPERTS at restoring love in marriage - YES, even after the most passionate deep affairs.) The BASIC CONCEPTS explain their proven theory: The 4 rules to a successful marriage. <P>Years and years of research also show that affairs do not last. <P>Your marriage can feel just as satisfying (and then some!) as the affair - IF YOU WANT TO WORK AT IT.<P>You must go back to the BASIC CONCEPTS and understand what causes affairs to happen, and learn how to "affair proof" your marriage. You really need to read the Basic Concepts also - because it is a pre-requisite to posting on this forum.<P>Yes, believe it or not - your affair is TYPICAL of all other affairs - and if YOU want to restore your marriage and make it totally satisfying (No it doesn't take two like everyone thinks.....) THEN....<P>1. STOP Contact with OW<BR>2. READ Basic Concepts<BR>3. PRINT Emotional Needs Questionaire, 2 copies<BR>4. COMPLETE your questionaire, and ask wife to do the same<BR>5. BEGIN communicating with your wife about your most important emotional need<BR>6. MEET your wife's emotional needs (she will be more likely to meet your needs if you are meeting hers)<BR>7. POST often to this site for support. <BR>8. ADD other components of the Basic Concepts as you are stronger.<P>God Bless You, We are ROOTING FOR YOU IN CYBER SPACE!!!<P>TNT

I know just what you are feeling pain. I haven't been to this site for about a month. Trying again to work on the marriage. I know what you are talking about when you say you are staying because of guilt and the kids. My H is obsessed with me is what I feel, not really love. I am the only person he's ever known. I helped him through a rough childhood. However, when we got married, it was all up to me to make the marriage work. Very little affection. I would try to hug him. He would not put his arms around me. I would have to physically pick up his arms and put them around me. Also, when I would kiss him, he would keep his lips still. Does anyone have any idea how that made me feel? No wonder I had a EA!! I know that is no justification, but really, how long can a plant last without water? <P>I just feel dead inside. Like I will never love him like he says he loves me. Yet, he just keeps clining onto me like I am his life line. How can you leave a person like that? It makes me feel so guilty to even think of it. He goes off the deep end if I even mention it.<P>I just wanted to let you know that I know what you are going through.

I know just what you are feeling Pain. I haven't been to this site for about a month. Trying again to work on the marriage. I know what you are talking about when you say you are staying because of guilt and the kids. My H is obsessed with me is what I feel, not really love. I am the only person he's ever known. I helped him through a rough childhood. However, when we got married, it was all up to me to make the marriage work. Very little affection. I would try to hug him. He would not put his arms around me. I would have to physically pick up his arms and put them around me. Also, when I would kiss him, he would keep his lips still. Does anyone have any idea how that made me feel? No wonder I had a EA!! I know that is no justification, but really, how long can a plant last without water? <P>I just feel dead inside. Like I will never love him like he says he loves me. Yet, he just keeps clining onto me like I am his life line. How can you leave a person like that? It makes me feel so guilty to even think of it. He goes off the deep end if I even mention it.<P>I just wanted to let you know that I know what you are going through.

dear pain,<P>I read your post to me and am saddened that you think that I would blame the OW (and be forgiving of you). No. Both of you are equally responsible for doing something very painful to your W and your marriage. You take 50 percent. The OW takes her 50 percent. As long as you continue to hold your W up to a very flawed woman (how more flawed can you get?), your marriage will not recover.<P>The OW is meeting YOUR needs, yes. Why? So she can get "the prize": YOU. Make no mistake. Her goal is to break up your family and your marriage.<P>I am going to reveal some things about women that might get me kicked out of the secret sorority, but here goes. How to manipulate a man: Be kind to him. Be understanding of him. Pretend that you feel remorse over something, say, oh, getting involved with a MM. Feed a man's ego. Do EVERYTHING you can to NOT be like his W at home - truth is, the OW is a different person than you think. She just cannot show her true self to you, because that would end the EMR. She is too busy trying to be what YOU want her to be. Again, to win the "prize." <P>That is why your W cannot compare, and why the playing field is not level and can never be level. I promise you that if you left your W for the OW, you'd be in for a rude awakening. <P>I know these things. Quite well. I am not willing to post on this board about it, because these are not issues that I want to get into here. You can, however, email me at littlebombay@yahoo.com. I will explain in full detail the OW's true intent and just how much you are being manipulated.<P>You might just be a little shocked. My H certainly was!<P>belld

Belldandy is right <P>When I was deep in the affair (and my affair was thankfully very short, with one visit to a hotel room)...<P>I was blond (he liked blonds -- I have brown hair)<P>I had a tan (I'm whiter than white -- almost blue even! It was fake)<P>I was into his long hair-- down to his a$$ (my then-H was very clean cut, which I'd always loved)<P>I was into island and ethnic music ( because he liked it -- I like Elvis Costello and/or Beethovan)<P>I was wearing a push up bra (he wanted that -- I perferred "them" somewhere down below my neck, not up against it)<P>I laughed at his jokes (they were pathetic)<P>I "loved" him (he was pathetic)<P>In short, I was the person he wanted me to be. <P>By the way, painforever, I got a divorce, began to believe all the lies I told myself, and spent the better part of a year in the deepest depression I've ever been in... and NOTHING is more embarrassing than waking up one day and seeing who've you've become -- and realizing you hate that person.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited June 12, 2001).]