A coworker recommended <I> Man's Eternal Quest </I> for me to read (by Paramanhansa Yogananda who lived from 1893-1952)<P>I thought I would share this:<P><B> Satan Created Ignorance, Cause of All Suffering </B><P><I> Suffering is therefore not the work of God, but of Satan's power of maya, delusion. This force creates the ignorance that blinds people to the consequences of their actions, causing them to err and thus bring suffering upon themselves. The only way to avoid error is to develop the discriminative wisdom to know what is wrong, and then resolve not to do it. One wrong fighting another wrong doesn't make a right. The true enemy of man is ignorance. It must be driven from this earth.<P>We have everything necessary in the world today to bring about the millennium. Only man's selfishness makes it impossible. Tremendous unnecessary suffering is created by man's shortsighted self-interest. Money that could feed and clothe needy people is used instead for destruction. The root cause of the world's troubles is this selfishness born of ignorance. Each person thinks he is doing right; but when he seeks to satisfy only his own interest, he is setting in motion the karmic law** of cause and effect that will inevitably destroy his own and others' happiness.<P>The more I see of world tragedies caused by man's ignorance, the more I realize that even if every street were paved with gold, happiness would not be lasting. Happiness lies in making others happy, in forsaking self-interest to bring joy to others. If each one would do that, then everyone would be happy; and all would be taken care of. This is what Jesus meant when he said: "All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them." (Matthew 7:12) </I><P>**Karma is the law of action and reaction. Whatever man sows by his behavior will reap in like measure, in this life or in succeeding ones.<P>Things that make you go hmmmmmmmm.<P>Cali<P>

So in a way you are saying that all the even all the BS that go through so much pain had it coming because of the Karmic law? I mean they must have done something terrible to have to go through what they do.<P>I know that was not what you meant. But If you want to discuss Karma you have to look at it from ALL angles.<BR>I do believe in Karma and that what goes around comes around but If we wore to try and understand it completely we should know that there are many ways of interpreting it - perhaps as many as the stars .<P>BTW - I think that there is something that works way faster then Karma - It’s the thought. When you ”Think” about something it beats the Karma in a split second - perhaps not only actions but even thoughts change your karma - O well its a biggie.....<P>Thoughts are actions in disguise<P>Just a thought <P> <BR>Peace<BR>HumbleFish<BR>

Thanks for that quote. A lot of food for thought in there.<P>However, I've always disagreed with the Eastern philosophers that ignorance is the cause of suffering. I've seen too many people who know the right thing, they simply don't do it. I do agree that it is self-interest and self-centeredness that motivates this like Paramanhansa says. But I'm afraid all the knowledge in the world can't drive that from the human heart.<P>But, many times, suffering can. I know now as a BS, and the suffering I've gone through, how terrible affairs are. I knew they were bad before, but that was just knowledge of the mind, now I know in my soul. I think I see now more clearly than I ever did before the preciousness of a good marriage, and how important it is to protect that.<P>In some ways I think this is part of what makes plan B work when it does work. The WS is left to suffer for their own choices, and if they can see that their spouse is not the cause of that suffering (Plan A), but a way out of it (Plan A) again, and they see that it was their choices which has brought them the suffering they are experiencing, then, sometimes, they will come home again.<P>And about Karma, what goes around *sometimes* comes around, but bad actions, bad Karma, is like a bomb, it creates tons of co-lateral damage. We BS certainly had a hand in creating the conditions that helped our WS justify their affair, but we didn't make them have the affair, and nothing we could have done could justify it. If they were that unhappy, they should have gotten a divorce and then found someone else. An affair can be forgiven, but it can't be justified.<P>Just my own opinions on these things. I hope you don't mind me jumping in with my thoughts, but that was a very thought provoking quote and I appreciated it very much. And when I think, I like to discuss. Hope that's ok.<P>Ish

O Humble, <BR>I have not yet posted to you--I have felt like you were truly in pain and as I am not in the mood to really care about an OWs pain right now...I bowed out. However I do need to reply to this.<P>Do I believe that Karmic Law applies to BSs as well? HMMMMM. Maybe you missed this:<BR><B>Each person thinks he is doing right; but when he seeks to satisfy only his own interest, he is setting in motion the karmic law** of cause and effect that will inevitably destroy his own and others' happiness. </B><P>It is known that BSs have contributed to the environment which allowed the A to occur, but they did not set the A in motion. WS and OP do that. They make the decision to satisfy their own interest. In all the stories I read, in my H's own emails to OW and hers to him...that is what I read the "What about me" syndrome. I, I, I, I, I...to H*** with vows, children, family, moral values, reputation....nothing matters but satifying themselves.<P>Meditate upon this---or pray, if you prefer...seek the answers of a higher power to reduce ignorance and suffering. It is when we seek to satisfy only our own desires, out of ignorance of God's desires, that we cause our own and others suffering...<P>My prayers of late have been not that I stay married, but that my H gets himself right with God and listens to God and is a more peaceful, satisfied, less angry person.<P>Cali

Ismael:<P><B>However, I've always disagreed with the Eastern philosophers that ignorance is the cause of suffering. I've seen too many people who know the right thing, they simply don't do it. I do agree that it is self-interest and self-centeredness that motivates this like Paramanhansa says. But I'm afraid all the knowledge in the world can't drive that from the human heart. </B><P>The whole book is about seeking God and listening to God. The <I> ignorance </I> to which he refers is the ignorance of God's desires for your life. Not ignorance of knowledge. <P><B> Just my own opinions on these things. I hope you don't mind me jumping in with my thoughts, but that was a very thought provoking quote and I appreciated it very much. And when I think, I like to discuss. Hope that's ok.</B><P>I don't mind at all, Ish. That's why I put it out there. Hard to discuss this with three boys under 8 and my H is not in mood <P>Cali<P>

Isn't there also something in the laws of karma that says things come back to you tenfold? So we BS may have done something MUCH less to someone else. I have always felt that I was getting karmic payback (by my H cheating) from the way I treated a past boyfriend when I was 20 years old. I didn't cheat on him, but I wasn't very nice at all. He was VERY hurt by me. Payback is a b***h, that's for sure. On the other hand, the boyfriend who hurt ME the worst ended up becoming a cocaine addict and losing everything he had. I'm definitely a believer in what comes around goes around and when you get yours it's much worse than what you dished out. I've seen it play out too many times not to believe it.

I personally don't believe in any kind of Karma forces, I see no mechanism for such to manifest. Most of the discussion of such things revolves around keeping score according to our own notions of fairplay, morality, etc. We live in a cause and effect universe, there is no evidence whatsoever of any way to project moral/ethical type consequences to future unrelated events. How is score kept? What are the standards, how do we balance the interrelated choices of billions of human beings, not to mention the colatteral influences. The complexity of such an endeveaur would seem to exceed the complexity of the universe itself, violating all sorts of physical limits (such as where is the energy to carry out all this karmic stuff). I do see where we messy humans find such contemplations useful in coping with our own lives, but the self-serving focus is obvious, similar to horoscopes, tarot cards, and the rest of the mumbo jumbo. IMO if we are to cope (psychologically) with our presence in an increasingly stressful technological world, our only real hope is in a thorough understanding of (and application of) human psychology. Marital behaviour, mate matching, and so forth have a sound basis in psychology. While I think there is more to it than the harley behavioural modification approach, I do think their formula is a good chunk of the answer to whether a relationship should continue. In any event, marriage as we know it is almost done, I doubt it will exist more than a 100 more years. If we continue as we are (biological sciences), I doubt even humans will exist (in recognizable form) more than a few hundred more years.

Sad n Lonely: Your user name kinda' underscores your beliefs. <P>None of us really know the truth, especially ole Keith101. But, this I do know: the physical world as we know it can be explained through science only by using the 5 senses we've developed. <P>IOW, maybe there's more out there that we just can't sense. <P>;^D

Sad_N_Lonely-<P>sometimes you just miss the whole point.<P>You probably don't believe in self-fulfilling prophesy either, hence your username.<P>Paramahansaji honored all religions and their founders, and held in respect all sincere seekers of God. Part of his world mission was "to reveal the complete harmony and basic oneness of original Christianity as taught by Jesus Christ and original Yoga as taught by Bhagavan Krishna." <P><I> Truth cannot be wholly proved to any seeker by anyone else; but by the practice of yoga, the aspirant can prove for himself through his own experience. <P>God is; and each man who will seek Him sincerely will know Him. Man can have no life or power to act, think or feel without borrowing that power from God.</I><P>Therefore, Paramahansaji pointed out, knowing God is not only a privilege and a divine duty, but a practical necessity. Why should man grovel in self-insufficiency when he can tap the Source of all power and fulfillment.<P>SnL--you keep seeking answers....are you asking the right Source? are you really listening? or, because 'it' is not the answer YOU want, do you ignore. Listen to your heart. Listen to God. If you feel comfort in your choice, it is probably the right choice. If you feel discomfort, it is probably the wrong choice. <P>Another 'platitude' I use on my students--If you have to ask me, you probably already know the answer.<P>Cali

Cali, I do like philosphy, and have spent many hours (on-line elsewhere) discussing same, I appreciate your response. Self-fullfilling phrophecy.....hmmm... you got a good point there (I do believe in power of positive thinking), but for now the name still fits.<P>My only issue was with the idea of karma, not that we should not seek to know the nature of our existence, which I believe is that of a discrete creator, and best revealed (but by no means completely revealed) by Christianity.<P>cali...Paramahansaji honored all religions and their founders, and held in respect all sincere seekers of God. Part of his world mission was "to reveal the complete harmony and basic oneness of original Christianity as taught by Jesus Christ and original Yoga as taught by Bhagavan Krishna." <P>snl....There is no harmony at all, Christianity is about salvation, that whoever beleives Jesus was the son of God, died for our sins, shall have everlasting life. It is a test of one's ability to make that leap of faith, and that is all. Far as I know has nothing to do with yoga.<P>....Truth cannot be wholly proved to any seeker by anyone else; but by the practice of yoga, the aspirant can prove for himself through his own experience.<P>Snl....Could someone explain to me how practicing yoga will uncover the truths necessary to explain flight and build an aircraft? <P>....God is; and each man who will seek Him sincerely will know Him. Man can have no life or power to act, think or feel without borrowing that power from God.<P>snl...I agree seeking will find God, and yes God created us so in that sense life comes from God, but that is not of any particular usefulness in living life<P>....Therefore, Paramahansaji pointed out, knowing God is not only a privilege and a divine duty, but a practical necessity. Why should man grovel in self-insufficiency when he can tap the Source of all power and fulfillment.<P>snl....Indeed why not, so why do you and I (and all the rest of humanity) grovel?<P>....SnL--you keep seeking answers....are you asking the right Source? are you really listening? or, because 'it' is not the answer YOU want, do you ignore. Listen to your heart. Listen to God. If you feel comfort in your choice, it is probably the right choice. If you feel discomfort, it is probably the wrong choice.<P>snl....ah cali, were it so simple. I do feel I am listening to my heart, and God. But in coming to this place in my life, and having mostly relied on my "mind" heretofore, I have come to realize it really takes both, your heart leads, and your mind puts meaning to where it goes, lest you be confused of the path. <P>cali...Another 'platitude' I use on my students--If you have to ask me, you probably already know the answer.<P>snl...????????? Then why do we need teachers? If not to present curiculum and answer related questions? So, I have been using the word platitude too much? I will admit to a propensity to wanting specifics and/or reproducible evidence before accepting a homily as gospel. It is sort of like telling someone with marital problems you just have to communicate better...what the heck good is that? Or saying ws are just in a fog.......well......uh...... ok......so what do we do with that, and what if they aren't? Now MB to it's credit, does indeed provide specifics and a track record. But for the record, I have been known to use platitudes myself from time to time, it is so tempting.<P>

<BR>Hi cali<P>I think you misunderstood me. I was not putting "blame" on anyone I was just trying to see the bigger picture. Sometimes when people talk about Karma they only look at the here and now. What I was trying to say was that Karma works throughout lifetimes and If you so will what comes around goes around even though you don’t know what hit you in this lifetime!. <P>I was talking in general terms and not pointing fingers on BS. It's just that I have read many times that ”OP will get theirs” and it got me thinking WHY do BS suffer so much are they perhaps ”getting theirs”.<P>I don’t want to get into some ”who’s wrong/who is bad” - I know what I have done and I’m trying to make amense - My reply to you was a general opinion on the Karmic law as I see it - nothing more.<P>Take Care<BR>HumbleFish<BR>

Karmic Law is a comforting thought... but it boils down to It is was it is, and it takes what it takes to get back to some normalcy. I'm not a religious person, but I think I read in the bible a verse that said something along the lines, that vengenace is mine sayith the Lord. That worked for me.

snl....<B>There is no harmony at all, Christianity is about salvation, that whoever beleives Jesus was the son of God, died for our sins, shall have everlasting life. It is a test of one's ability to make that leap of faith, and that is all. Far as I know has nothing to do with yoga. </B><P>Cali <I> I didn't say Christianity had anything to do with yoga...It was a quote....but I believe there are many paths to God. </I><P>Snl....<B>Could someone explain to me how practicing yoga will uncover the truths necessary to explain flight and build an aircraft? </B><P>Cali <I> It is not the practice of yoga, necessarily, it is having faith in God, then in yourself ...not sure the religious path you take matters...for me it is Christianity, for others....? Besides...the truths Paramahansa talks about are inner truths not worldy, material truths. </I><P><BR>snl...<B> I agree seeking will find God, and yes God created us so in that sense life comes from God, but that is not of any particular usefulness in living life </B><P>Cali <I> really? hmmmm. </I><P>snl....<B> Indeed why not, so why do you and I (and all the rest of humanity) grovel? </B><P><I> that's the point...we should not grovel...through Jesus Christ, as you have said, we are saved from our sins...we are deserving of happiness and a fulfilling life...BUT not as we would live life, but as God desires for us. We spend too much time justifying our actions and being selfish. We should not be living life for ourselves, or even others, but for God. </I><P><BR>snl....<B>ah cali, were it so simple. I do feel I am listening to my heart, and God. But in coming to this place in my life, and having mostly relied on my "mind" heretofore, I have come to realize it really takes both, your heart leads, and your mind puts meaning to where it goes, lest you be confused of the path. </B><P>Cali <I> Which comes first snl? Heart or God? God or heart? God will take away your confusion. It really is that simple. Where does your struggle come from? </I><P><BR>snl...????????? <B> Then why do we need teachers? If not to present curiculum and answer related questions? </B><P>Cali <I> Look to your question. Teachers do present the material. Students listen and do the reading....but we do not give the answers...we can show you the thinking process, but you have to do the thinking and come to the answer on your own. Teachers are guides. Jesus was a guide. The answer is there. Why are you struggling? Correct answers feel good. Incorrect answers hurt. </I><P>snl <B> So, I have been using the word platitude too much? I will admit to a propensity to wanting specifics and/or reproducible evidence before accepting a homily as gospel. It is sort of like telling someone with marital problems you just have to communicate better...what the heck good is that? Or saying ws are just in fog.......well......uh...... ok......so what do we do with that, and what if they aren't? Now MB to it's credit, does indeed provide specifics and a track record. But for the record, I have been known to use platitudes myself from time to time, it is so tempting. </B><P>Cali <I> Again...looking for someone to tell you what to do. Having someone else give you the 'fix.' You want cold hard evidence that you should stay married. No one can do that FOR you, snl. Give up the struggle and listen to God. </I><P><BR>Cali<BR><p>[This message has been edited by StrongerInCali (edited June 23, 2001).]