My husband has been home for 2 weeks. Brief history: H had PA with OW in 1994 and 3 contacts in the passed year. Each time I asked him to leave home and this 3rd time I filed for divorce. He, as usual, has been doing and saying all the right things for the last 4 months while separated and continued doing all the right things for the last 2 weeks he has been home. the first week was basically a honeymoon (again). this second week has been real hard for me. I am the one holding up the progress in our marriage recovery. I am withdrawing and have a very negative attitude. I have heard it all before... there is nothing new under the sun...the problem is our marriage can be picture perfect for a year then BAM out of the blue he calls her. I am not in individual counseling. I have been in counseling on/off for 10 years. I feel very hopeless because I feel like I know it all. I know that sounds crazy. But I have tried EVERYTHING. This has been a pattern for 11 years. Like I told the counselor yesterday: you can not hold someone else accountable. he can be with all the right people, say and do all the right things but NO ONE (but God) knows whats going on in his heart and in his head - that leads him to OW. <P>I felt like counseling was useless. Then last night I am trying to be Radically Honest. I expressed my insecurities (without LB) basically I said I feel like second choice. It was frustrating. I could tell he was trying in his own little way but he is TOTALLY CLUELESS! He asked what I needed and I said I don't know. I really don't know! He kept his arm around me the whole time (i guess that is progress). I went upstairs and logged onto MB. He followed me (i guess that is progress too). <P>The thing is: if he never contacts her again and he really feels bad then I am making it all worse!<P>I just hate it. I use to be a strong confident self sufficient woman and now I am this insecure frightened coward. It has shaken the very foundation of my faith in God. I use to be a strong Christian now I doubt God. If you can't trust God who can you trust? I know it is my mentality, I got to shake myself out of this - I gotta know God has my best interest in heart - but I doubt.<P>I am mad at BS. I feel like I caved! He use to be worlds greatest dad but when we were apart he visited the kids while I was at work. I think he did this so I would get no break and cave and guess what? I did! My kids cherish him and I have resolved to doing this for them. I feel so weak. I just want someone to come rescue me. Where is my Knight-n-shining-armor. I want someone to take care of me. It is so unfair!!!! I am tired of being the strong one!! <P>

I have 2 posts today. I am thinking of emailing them to H. <P>Why not be honest? I have a bad attitude...<P>my motive is "whats he gonna do?... leave me?... don't do me any favors"

Hi notheard,<P>Well, I hear you.<P>I wouldn't send the posts, it will only push him further away.<P>I remember your feelings very well. I was married to my ex for 20 years (in the end) and years 18,19 were hell on earth. <P>I also wanted my knight-in-shining-armour to rescue me. Thing is, he COULDN'T. <P>I also used to be a strong, independent, self-sufficient woman, and you know what? That gets tiring, esp. if you have kids who need you. You are spread so thin you can't do anything 100% - not the marriage, not the kids, not even taking care of YOURSELF. I hear you!!<P>If you are in Plan A, you CANNOT say things like you did last night (about being second choice). YOu must ACT AS IF you are FIRST CHOICE and Plan A your little head off. I know it sucks, and I know it hurts. I was there. My ex finally came to a session with my beloved therapist, Liz, (she is a female Episcopal priest) and he brought his GREAT BIG BIBLE and a chip the size of a grapefruit on his shoulder. It did nothing.<P>I hear you!!!

Hold off on the email, notheard.<P>What you're experiencing is pretty common in recovery. If you do the Harley plan, you'll find that the betrayed spouse has all the work to do while the affair is active. That's the only way it's gonna work anyway---a wayward spouse isn't going to do squat while they're having an affair. I found that Plan A could be easy at times, because I was doing the right think in the face of some pretty serious obstacles.<P>But when you hit recovery, everything changes. All of a sudden, you have a real opportunity for what you've been fighting for so long. And you begin to question yourself as to "why" you were fighting for this in the first place. And some of the anger you may have been supressing will come boiling to the surface. <P>Steve Harley told me that often the betrayed spouse is responsible for the first 90% of recovery. But it's often the wayward spouse that actually makes the major effort to help the betrayed spouse over that (very hard at times) last 10%.<P>You're normal. Your husband is reacting pretty well, from what you say here. He's willing to do what it takes to help you recover. Use this willingness wisely---and don't beat up on him too much now. If you do, he may lose his new-found enthusiasm for this reconciliation---and then, who's going to take the lead?<P>You might want to consider a short (6 month) course of antidepressants if you can't shake this situational depression. I'd just encourage you to stay the course here---and to start allowing your husband to be this person who can take care of you now. It's scary, because you don't trust him (nor should you)---but you've got to allow him the opportunity to prove his trustworthiness in order to rebuild the marriage.<P>

Oh please be patient with me, I say this in love but I am struggeling.<P>Plan A is crap! <P>I don't think I have ever "let myself go". Plan A is not something I do, it is the life I live. Its all so useless. I can't look better - because I have always tried to look my best. I don't THINK I am ugly... maybe there is no help for me to improve. Sound crazy - maybe it is just my lack of motivation - i could use some exercise although I am not overweight. But its stupid because I have always excerised until Dday. <P>I am on meds - have been for 2 years. increase the dose 3 times and changed brands. <P>Comon guys... help me. Me and H both took a vacation day off tomorrow and I have GOTTA loose this attitude. Tell me something NEW. <P>Oh the cycle and pattern is madness! I do EVERYTHING to SAVE the marriage. Then I relise EVERYTHING is not enough so I quit. Then he does EVERTYHING to SAVE the marriage but when he thinks he saved it he reverts back to the OP. This has been going on 11 years.<P>Please help me. Give me a drug, say the magic words, tell me where to buy some pixie dust, or what ingrediants to brew...

How would you feel about moving to the other side of the country, to where the OW wouldn't be physically present?<P>I understand your frustration, but you both need to get on the same page. Is your current counselor working towards this? (I know you've only had a session, so that's probably a bad question).<BR>

notheard,<BR>If you are a person with faith, you can trust God. God's first plan for us in the Garden was a perfect life. But he gave us that dingdang freewill...and you know the rest of the story. Bad/evil choices by ourselves & others slop over onto people who don't deserve it. Wheels within circles set in motion.<P>It does sound like your H is trying...he's still there. He knows how to walk out, and he didn't last night.<P>He isn't going to be able to read your mind--if he asks what he can do and you can't give him an answer, that is frustrating for both of you. It sounds like he tried a little affection--the arm around you--he tried a little companionship--following you. It might not have been what you needed, but it was a try on his part. It's difficult to give someone credit when you are so tired and heartsore.<P>He might not even guess the things that you feel are REALLY obvious.<P>And, the anger is part of the process. It seems to come out right as the desperation to have them back is on the way out.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things." Phil 4:8

I'm so sorry for your pain!! I know, not "new" but true.<P>How about what K suggested... moving... it worked wonders for my marriage after the first affairs. We had many good years away from those women... we moved 100 miles away.<BR>

The OW moved away for about a year and came back. Truly, I hate her but I do not feel like she is the problem - it is my H. She has not been the only OW - she just was with him the longest.<P>Counselors... Shmounselors... I know what they are going to say before they say it. We've been to a dozen over the years. I am sorry, maybe I am just venting. <P>I really appreciate yall listening and responding to me.

Also, about moving. <P>I have family here that I love. His sister, His aunt, his cousin, my 3 brand new nephews under 1 year. (All his side of the family - but mine too). My roots are here - my kids are in private school that goes up to 12 grade - it is a small school but I want to give my kids SOME sort of stability. <P>My mom is just 3 hours away. <P>Besides there will always be OW where-ever you go. Again, I really don't think she is the ONLY problem. There will always be willing women...<P>Oh this is going to sound REAL dysfunctional! My life is perfect - if H would just... I am breaking all the rules today! This is my day! I declare it! Tomorrow we have taken a vacation day to be together. I will be o.k then. But today?! I am going to break all the rules with you guys. I am gonna be Cynical, negative, sarcastic...<P>Please keep posting with me.

Has anyone read this in "His Needs Her Needs..."<P>It needs to be added...<P>I want this deposited in the LoveBank: <BR>Change the passed and guaranty my future.<P>Poor thing - he doesn't have a chance!...<P>

notheard,<P>I wouldn't send him the emails. I wouldn't give him access to ALL my private personal thoughts and insecurities. Yes, my H knew my hurt and pain but I did not voice to him my fears. Total honesty? Maybe not but to be TOTALLY honest in this context may have meant discussing my prophesy of potential doom. I was so scared we weren't going to make it. Afterall, he had been seeing this woman for years,,not continually, not daily or even weekly, but everytime he felt the need for his "secret friend." <P>I felt that to predict doom meant to hold back. And I really needed to attack this hole in our marriage full force. Like you, I had a hard time Plan A'ing. I had always done all this Plan A stuff. But inconjunction with that, I also LB'd alot in the past. Rather than concentrating on Plan Aing ontop of Plan Aing,,I concentrated on NO LB's. THAT was a big change. And I found that "I" felt better with no LB's. They never helped me or made me feel better after commiting them. Only worse. <P>And consider yourself ahead of the game if you were able to have a somewhat rational discussion with your counselor on your first appt. My counselor was paid for the first several visits for handing me Kleenex and listening to my sobbing!! Those appointments DO get better.

Is your H going to individual counseling? I can relate to your story very much. I am doing the same things this time that I have done SO many times before. My H screws up, he tells me months later, we work through it, I do everything I can to try and make sure our marriage is solid and nothing will happen again, then it does.<P>The difference this time (and the only reason I am staying) is that my H is working with me this time. HE is in individual counseling, HE is finding out what it IS he saw in this OW and what he feels he is NOT getting from home, HE is the one doing the sole-searching to find out why he does these things. Why he is capable of doing these things that obviously cause him so much pain and guilt later on.<P>My job is to wait and see if he sticks with it, or if he runs away again. That, plan A w/o LBing and getting a plan for recovery in place. This is our last chance, both of us know it.<P>Are you seeing the same counselor as before? Perhaps it is time for a new one, I mean, if they keep saying the same things and it's not working...<P>Ask you counselor what your plan of recovery should be, a plan that will help restore your trust in your H. <P>One of the things my counselor just told me yesterday was that I had to TELL my H how it feels when he SAYS he will do something, I am convinced, then at some point, he changes his mind but doesn't tell me (example: EA with OW even though we talked about it and he said he would do everything to prevent something like that from happening), then I find out a few months later. Explain how that makes me feel, and how untrusting that makes me. I need to know that he means what he says and that he will do what he says he will and not go back on his word again.<P>I'm not sure if that is relevant, but perhaps...<P>I really hate counseling appointments, I know they help me in the long run, but afterwards, I always feel so full of anger, resentment, and just pure frustration...<P>It will get better in time, all I can tell you is what my counselor told me (paraphrase) "Unless we get to the root of WHY your H does what he does, then it won't matter if you recover or not this time. It will happen again. You must be prepared for that, but you must also be prepared to accept that maybe your H does not WANT to live his life the way he is and he just needs a little help to make things right. If he can show his trustworthiness by countinuing counseling, you will see the changes come over him, and you will know a few months from now whether or not he can change and make it so that this will never happen again. The changes need to come from inside of him, and only he can make those changes. You can't control that, you just need to wait. In the meantime, work on yourself, take control of your life, and be ready to accept either outcome."<P>And that is what I am trying to do...<BR>HbH

As usual, I have a somewhat different view, but my sanity is in question so read at your own risk <P>I would tell him eveything you have said here, be radically (but not abusively) honest, cause until he has a "clue" he really doesn't have a clue you are dieing. Maybe he will resuce you, maybe not, but I really don't see how it can harm anything (any worse), so what's to lose? And I sense you really want to tell him this stuff......ultimately there are no gaurantees, it may never work (be the passionate in-live white knight love you seek), that may be what you sense and are struggling with. Some say we don't need that, we can negotiate a good marriage (hnhn). Maybe, I dunno, but guess you have to decide that for yourself. I would advise not being angry, and not being woe is me.....but be VULNERABLE, (like you are here), you may get hurt, but unless you accept that risk, you cannot do it right.<P>Whatever you do, I understand your frustration, and even though I am a ws, I have many of those feelings...strange huh. People are just people, circumstances lead us to wear one label or the other, but we are all a whole lot more the same, then we are different. good luck<P>btw, if he is receptive at that point do some brainstorming on what a white knight feels and looks like, not a cookbook, but something to get him thinking. Ultimately you have to let go of the fear, and just be vulnerable, if you get hurt again, it is the price you pay, most seem to deal with that by making committment (to self) that is last time, no more chances, is over...... but ya gotta mean it for the vulneravility to work....IMO.

<<<Oh please be patient with me, I say this in love but I am struggeling.<BR>Plan A is crap! <BR>I don't think I have ever "let myself go". Plan A is not something I do, it is the life I live.>>><P>I am right there with you, sister. I lived Plan A for many years, without "lovebusters," and boy was he happy. He had his girlfriends at work AND a nice wife at home! (Though he insists they are NOT girlfriends and the private 1 1/2 hour off-site lunches are NOT dates) <P>Of course, now that his wife won't tolerate the girlfriends anymore, his life sucks.<P><<<Besides there will always be OW where-ever you go. Again, I really don't think she is the ONLY problem. There will always be willing women...>>><P>You are absolutely right about this too. We moved 2000 miles away so he could take a new position with the same company. He left his favorite girlfriend behind, but did that change anything? Hell, no! He just got a whole new crop to choose from and things got even worse.<P>I respect marriagebuilders for trying to save marriages, but sometimes they've got the betrayed spouse bending so far over backwards to please the cheater that their spine breaks.<P>If you have not already, you may want to check the message boards at <A HREF="http://www.infidelity.com." TARGET=_blank>http://www.infidelity.com.</A> They tend to be a LOT tougher on cheaters and liars than marriagebuilders does.<P>Good luck to all....<P><BR>

The problem is the tightrope we walk.<P>Radically Honest and yet not lovebusting??! what is that?!!<P>You know what was kinda cute last night? he had his arm around me/hand on my back and he said he felt like his hand was 10x its normal size like a gorilla hand. I imagine that way of comforting me was so foriegn to him yet so uncomfortable to him yet he stuck with it. (I love him)<P>My husband is working on himself individually this time - that is another big difference. <P>I really think right now I am the problem. <P>psycho_b,<BR>I relate - I think new jobs are triggers. My H has the same job for 8 years - OW was coworker but left the job and moved to another state. H changed jobs 3 times last year - each time letting OW know he changed jobs. Like he was saying, look at me now, bet you really want me now, and by the way, here is where you can find me. (I hate him)<P>sigh...

Notheard,<P>I'm about to say some things that are very much against what most MB enthusiasts might tell you. Some might tell you to just keep plan-a'ing...it'll pay off. Well, my answer to that is that at some point, you have to have some self-respect. I personally have a problem with the whole theory of Plan A, I am not about to try to convince my H that I'm the one he loves, not the OW...if I need to do that, then forget it. I guess I'm very lucky my H dropped the OW immediately after d-day, because if he hadn't, I'd be divorced right now.<P>I don't know your whole story, so tell me if I'm wrong, but what I gather is that there are more than 1 OW, it's been going on for years, 11 years I think I read, he's had continued contact but hasn't told you. You don't think he's cheating now, but you're not sure he won't in the future, with some other willing woman.<P>Is that all right?<P>Honey, if it were me, I'd be outta there. What a way to spend 11 years of your life! Yes, he may come to his senses, realize what he's lost, but if he doesn't love you enough to realize that now, after all you've been through with him, then he isn't worth it...you deserve better. I totally understand your concern about the kids. But you don't deserve to be treated this way. I understand that he's treating you well right now, but if it were me (which it isn't obviously, so ignore this if you feel like it ) this is the way I'd be acting: <P>Warning: very cynical, un-MB attitude ahead>>>>>I'd check out the email account he says he hasn't been using, I'd probably go on a detective spree looking for evidence of any dishonesty. I'd trap him into lying to my face, and I'd use that instance to justify to myself that this isn't going anywhere and I have good reason to end it. If he never did any of these things, at least not for some time period, like a year, I'd feel like I could relax and stop the detective thing. During that time, I'd certainly try to work on the marriage (yeah, right, I know all those MB people are saying that with this type of dishonesty in my heart, it wouldn't be possible to work on the M while sneaking around checking his email etc). Maybe at the end of whatever time period it is, I'd have a great M, or maybe I'd be divorced. But I sure wouldn't go on living with lies. <P>Sorry to be so outspoken here, but for some reason some of the posts I've read this morning have just gotten under my skin. The thought of having to beg my H to stay with me, even if it's not really begging but just doing the perfect plan A to convince him to leave some other woman, is just sickening. I have more self respect than that. I know there are people who end up with awesome marriages after the WS has done the whole "on the fence thing", but boy howdy, my H wouldn't have the chance to ride any fence with me! <P>sis<p>[This message has been edited by still in shock (edited September 27, 2001).]

notheard<BR>I just read your post on my thread.<BR>I wish I had some great advice for you or a quick fix.<BR>I see that you have already gotten a lot of good advice from some very wise people.<P>The only thing that I would like to add is my interpretation of Plan A. <BR>For me, Plan A was about making myself a better person. Not for my H....for me.<BR>If there is any one of us that can't be a better person, I want to meet them.<BR>It isn't about pleasing my H. It is about making it comfortable and safe to be around me. Making it safe for my H to be honest with me.<BR>I do believe in total honesty. Right or wrong, I refuse to keep secrets from my H. If I find out about contact I tell him I know. In my own experience I find that it won't go away if it isn't on the table. JMHO. But honesty has to be a safe thing for both. <BR>I know how difficult it is to have these discussions without LB. I do have an Irish temper. But I am very proud when I hold my temper and it gets easier every time.<P>It's okay to take a day to be cynical and vent this stuff out. We all have days when we don't believe in a single thing.<BR>I wish for you a good day with your H tomorrow.<BR>I will be thinking of you.<P>

Notheard:<P><BR>I am with you all the way. Psycho...Amen.<P>Sorry all you MB diehards, but I too have been Plan Aing for almost 8 months. It only makes H feel better, me feel more taken advantage of. The minute I say "Whoa wait a minute what about my needs?" It's back to the same old selfish, insensitive crap from my H.<P><BR>D-Day 8 months ago H confessed to 13+ years of A's (mostly coworkers)<P>Part of his confession was that he wanted to get it off his chest, rebuild & that he loved me & didn't want a D.<P>Now am I wrong here? He pretty much told me our life together was a lie, but he wanted me to know & wanted me to decide whether or not I could forgive him & stay together.<P>Well, unfortunately I haven't made up my mind. He isn't the man I thought I married. He is a stranger. I have asked for ever detail. Why? So I can figure out who this man is. What he did. Why? & when.<P>We do individual & joint counseling.<P>He stopped last week says he cured. Knows why he did it etc.<P>Now he has told me he can't put up with me & my depression, my moods, my crying, my questions. "Lets be friends" he says yesterday.<P>It has to be his way or no way. I thought I was the one who was deciding whether I wanted to stay w/him or not.<P>I came home today with D papers. He says he's not ready. Neither am I, but something needs to be done. I'm gonna do it.<P>Thanks for letting me vent on your thread. Guess I should have posted my own.<P>Just thought our situations sounded alot alike. <P>Hold your head up!!!<P>((hugs))<P>Lisa<P>