WS just called. I expect she was trying to leave a message because it was 2pm and I'm normally at work. But it's such a nice day out, and I had SUCH a crappy weekend that I decided to take a 1/2 day sick leave and clean the garage.<p>Anyway, she said that tonight works best for her to come and have dinner. She also said that she'd help me take down the Halloween decos and put up the T-giving ones, and that we need to talk (funny, it always seems to be HER bringing up this sh#t).<p>I don't know exactly how we (she) started on this whole mess on the phone, but basically it was the same old story repeated for at least the 20th time in the last 3 weeks. About how she just plain "DOESN'T WANT to waste the time to see if it could work." She just wants to "get on with her life." She said that my LB's of the last three weeks (really only the first 2 post D-Day) were "IT." I'm not sure if that means she would have had some hope prior to my crap or what, but I can certainly see that we were closer to being on the same track before all of my reactionary efforts.<p>Get THIS, she actually said that SHE doesn't trust ME. She thinks that all the things that I'm doing and changing about myself are purely motivated by her. She thinks that I might slip BACK into the Kev of the last year. I assured her that EVERYTHING I'm doing is for ME, but that I certainly have hopes that it'll matter to her, who wouldn't.<p>I asked her if she thought I am a good person, to which she replied she didn't know (SLAP!) I think that's just the anger coming through. So I asked her if I had EVER made her happy, she said yes, but that was a different man. EXACTLY, that man was different than the one I've been for the last 1-4 years.....and now I'm going to be different again (actually closer to the original me, but more mature). I told her that if that was the case, how could she consider it a waste to even CONSIDER if that happiness (or more) is possible. SHE DOESN'T WANT TO! yeah, yeah, heard it already.<p>I asked her exactly WHY she doesn't want to. She said that the actions of the last three weeks were part of it, that she knows now that she can make it on her own (but is she REALLY on her own if she just wants to keep "dating" OM???? I don't really think so), that she's young and doesn't want to waste the time, that her heart isn't in the trying, that she just wants to go and find happiness. Sounds like she doesn't want to work for it though. She fell out of love w/ me and didn't work on it. She fell into a relationship and love with OM, and didn't work on it. She wants an arbitrated divorce, and doesn't want to work on it. She wants to be "single", but date the OM "normally", but she doesn't want to have to work too hard on the single part obviously.<p>I told her that I don't believe what she's saying. I told her that I wasn't making a judgement, or trying to belittle her in any way, but that I see inconsistencies in what she's saying, and what she's doing. For example, last Tues. in her first session, she told the C that she "doesn't want to continue PA w/ OM because it's immoral and God frowns upon it" (or something pretty close to that). I pointed out that even though she told C and me that, she was (IMO) getting ready to have sex w/ OM Saturday when I was parked outside the window. She spat "HOW would YOU know." I calmly told her that I'd been with her for 12 years and that I could tell by the tone of her voice. I didn't add that I had a pretty good idea exactly why she was getting the towel and kneeling on the bed before I called OM's cell.<p>Problem is, she's so resolute in her feelings that she's almost got me talked into it, and that scares me.<p>She asked me why, if we're fated to be together shouldn't we just get a divorce, and she can date F'head (normally) and if it doesn't work out w/ him, and she sees that, yeah, Kevin really stuck to his changes, THEN we could get back together. WTF???? I answered her with this question, Why, if we're fated to be together, shouldn't we just NOT get a divorce, and just see what happens?" I stopped short of giving her permission to "date" OM, but she doesn't need that permission either. I just don't want to add my blessings to it because I think that'd make it just that much easier for her. I also told her that I don't believe in divorce and I don't think God does (unless there are abuse issues or something like that).<p>I hear the words and like I said, I almost believe them...but then I think to myself that I was in a similar situation when I had the EA several years ago. Difference is the EA died naturally, and her PA hasn't yet, and I've been pressing that issue....need to stop that, I'm just so scared of the "WHAT IF IT WORKS," because she's not normally the impulsive type when it comes to HUGE deals like this. But then, I think...you know, if she didn't care or REALLY wanted to end it, she'd just stop calling and coming over and talking about it....I don't really know why she hasn't if she's SO determined to get a DV. I know that she wants an EASY DV, and I suppose THAT could be the reason; trying to wear me down so that I will give in and allow it to be arbitrated rather than filed (even though she's threatened to do just that twice now in three days-don't really like THAT escalation).<p>I don't know, anyone's thoughts are MORE than welcome.<p>thanks for letting me rant,
Kev

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by kevco-:
<strong>Get THIS, she actually said that SHE doesn't trust ME. She thinks that all the things that I'm doing and changing about myself are purely motivated by her. She thinks that I might slip BACK into the Kev of the last year. I assured her that EVERYTHING I'm doing is for ME, but that I certainly have hopes that it'll matter to her, who wouldn't.<p>I don't know, anyone's thoughts are MORE than welcome.<p>
Kev</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Kev,<p>I hope these thoughts are MORE than welcome. First of all, I'm not going to bs you. I've never replied to you but I've watched your posts recently and I have to tell you I wouldn't trust you right now. <p>I understand your frustration and anger but it's not serving you well. Just to let you know I have problems dealing with those things myself. <p>Kev, your W is going to do what she wants regardless of your beliefs in M or what you think is right or best. What good is forcing her to see it your way going to do? I mean, really, how comfortable are you going to be if you make your W come home and do it your way. Lot's of paranoia. You think nothing about invading her privacy now - wait until she's supposed to be home with just you. Regardless of her mistake, the fog, whatever, she is afraid of trusting you. Put yourself in her shoes. Why would you think she could trust you when you're being a peeping tom?<p>Have a feeling that this post is going to upset you but I've been down this road (not to the extreme that you have) and it doesn't do anything but damage you in her eyes. If your goal is to make yourself look good in her eyes you've got to get control of yourself and make REAL changes and they have to be changes you (not her) want. That takes a lot of time. You can't just declare yourself changed. Put in the work.<p>
who

Who,<p>I think I DO have to give you that one (your response actually made me giggle when I took it in this context)....I certainly haven't been very trustworthy lately (well maybe trustworthy isn't the right word, maybe it's stable- I'm not sure). I agree, and respect, that she can't trust me to keep out of her business lately. But, what I heard (obviously, not necessarily what she said) is that she can't trust me to stick to the changes that I'm making.<p>Believe me, I know that my actions haven't made me any more attractive to her, and have probably hurt my cause immeasureably. But I'm resolved to be done with that type of activity (sure I'll have weak moments, but hopefully, I'll be near a computer and can come here).<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Kev, your W is going to do what she wants regardless of your beliefs in M or what you think is right or best. What good is forcing her to see it your way going to do? I mean, really, how comfortable are you going to be if you make your W come home and do it your way <hr></blockquote><p>Actually, I'd probably take that as a start, and then I'd work to put it on equal footing....remember I am supposed to be the SANE one in all of this. Granted, that wouldn't be the best circumstance to begin to rebuild a relationship, but it's better than the alternative.<p>I understand that I can't control her, and I THINK I'm done trying.<p>I know it'll take time to affect the changes that I intend. I am willing to put in that time, with or without WS.<p>Thanks, WHO for the reply.<p>Later,
K

Kev,<p>I think there is echoing in my ears...EVERYTHING your W said to you my H has said to me...<p>My advice to you...quit talking about it...don't ask her questions...and when she says things to you...repeat them back exactly and ask for 'clarification' and 'specifics.' EVEN IF SHE BRINGS IT UP...it is too early yet for you to be able to 'prove' you have 'changed.'<p>TIME, PATIENCE, CONSISTENCY are your best friends right now...<p>I am six months into this and just last week I heard, "Why did I {WH} have to sin to get you {BS} to change." "Why is it because you read a bunch of books and have changedthat I have to join you on your bandwagon?"<p>Time, patience and consistency...continue your journey for you...because it is the journey that is important and not the destination.

TA,<p>Thanks, I HAVE quit asking about it....Actually, we've sort of reversed roles in this whole deal. The first week, that's ALL I wanted to talk about...ultimately, that's the reason that she gave for moving out (course I now know it's for easier access, but that's beside the point). All I'd like to do right now is have a normal conversation, but she keeps dragging us back into the mire, it almost feels like she's trying to antagonize me into fighting with her so she'll feel justified in doing what she's doing.... Something I'm only too happy to do most of the time, but that's ending NOW.<p>Thanks again,
K<p>[ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: kevco- ]</p>

Kevco... I know where you're coming from! I 've fought the urges to poke around a bit. I'm not always successful but I try. I ask myself if there's anything more that I'm going to learn and even if there is, will it significantly change anything? Odds are the pain of having it in your face isn't worth anything you'll discover.<p>You're going to have to back off!!! I'm to the point now that even when W wants to talk about "things" I minimize the conversation. I still slip and get into it but there's really no sense. We hashed it all... This is now about making real change in my life. W will do as she will. I'm still struggling with acceptance. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] I'll share the mantra that I use to keep in on the path: BREATHE! With time and patience this too shall pass! Best of all to you!<p>Paul

Yea me! No LB's. WS came over and I cooked pizza for us. It was our first half-way normal meeting since D-Day. She didn't even really talk about all of this much, thankfully. We chit chatted about the things I've been doing to the house (New front door, running electricity to the garage for a workshop, cleaning, etc...). After dinner, we took down the Halloween decos and put up the T-giving, it was nice.<p>Then she gathered some more things (few more clothes and craft supplies) and we loaded them into her car. The neighbor was outside and so we wandered over and chatted w/ him for a while, then his wife came home and we talked for a little while longer. It felt truly good to just TALK normally. I think I'll do more of that. She told me she's going to go down to her parents for the weekend (about 3 hours away), I hope they don't try too hard to "convert" her, otherwise it'll just hurt ME. I talked to them a couple of nights ago and tried to explain that point, that I'm not going to (nor should I have ever)recruit them to help me....it does much more harm than good.<p>Then I thanked her for coming over and told her I had a nice time. She replied that she doesn't have a problem being friends. I'll take that for now.<p>Thank you all for listening an posting on this thread....it helped to relieve some of my anxiety for the eve and probably helped me to not LB.<p>Kev

Hi Kevco,
I've been following your threads but this is my first time posting to you. As is often the case around here, I see similarities in my situation and yours.<p>I am the WS (wife), also age 30. I, too, got involved with a younger man (though not a 19-year-old!) when my marriage hit the downward spiral. After my H discovered my A, he said he wanted to leave me, and finally did after a painful six months of living together as roomates with no work done on saving the marriage. He left at the end of September, moved in with a friend, opened his own bank accounts, and saw our son on weekends.<p>Not long after he left, I realized that I was done trying and that, like your wife, I just wanted to be happy. I was sick of crying, sick of feeling guilty, and just wanted to move on, and begin dating again. Finally I told my H (in a long and heart-felt email) that I accepted our situation, that we could still be friends, and raise our son in a harmonious way. I actually got to the point of LOOKING FORWARD to a new life, of being comfortable with the decision.<p>Well, can you guess what happened then?? H suddenly decides that he still loves me and wants to make the marriage work. He wants to come home, he says he's changed, he's a different person now, he thinks we can and should make it work. <p>How do I feel? INCREDIBLY skeptical. This guy who's told me he doesn't want to be with me, didn't love me anymore, wasn't attracted to me and didn't want to have sex with me, just wanted to be alone, etc. has suddenly CHANGED!! That's really hard to believe, given what I've seen from him in the past two years.<p>I can understand what your wife says about just wanting to be happy. I have reached that same point. If the OM is making her feel things that you have not in a long time, that may be too hard for her to give up right now. It's intoxicating; it feels too good. However, I must agree with the others who are saying this relationship will probably fall flat on its own due to the *young* age of the OM and the difference in their ages. It's just that we don't know how long that will take. Will you be there to catch her when it happens, or will you have moved on?<p>I think it's important that you continue to genuinely work on yourself, on changing things that will improve you in your eyes, not just hers, and trying not to appear too needy. A good friend of mine told me this fact about relationships, and good or bad, it is definitely true: THE ONE WHO CARES THE LEAST CONTROLS THE RELATIONSHIP.<p>Think about it: right now, your W is the one who "cares the least" about saving your marriage, and you are the one chasing her and trying to win her back. You care the most, but she's the one controlling the situation. But it's really amazing what happens when the tables turn...and you become the one who cares the least (or, actually, even just APPEARS to be the one who cares the least). My own situation is a good example. I gave up (cared the least) and now my H wants to come back.<p>I know I may get flamed by others because this philosophy doesn't fall into any MB doctrine...but over and over I've seen that it's TRUE. Just something to think about...<p>Calla

Kevco,<p>3 months ago this could have been a conversation I had with my wife:<p>She thinks that all the things that I'm doing and changing about myself are purely motivated by her. She thinks that I might slip BACK <p>That's exactly what my wife said to me. It's the warped reality of the WS - they think it's the BS who should be re-establishing the trust with the WS. 'Are you really going to be a nice person or will you change back to the horror you were?'. In the mind of the WS this is their reality.<p>Plan A needs time and consistency. After 3 months of hard work on myself, I don't get judgemental, I avoid angry outbursts, I don't try to control and I actively work at meeting the needs of my wife. It's working very well and I think we can move to recovery soon. <p>However, I'm not rushing things. It took years for our marriage to get into the state it was - why should it be ok again overnite.<p>Patience and consistency my friend.<p>take care,<p>- Freddy<p>[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: Freddy ]</p>