Please help me plan my next move.<p>WH has informed me that he has decided between me and OW. But ... (there's always a big "but" in these things) he's not ready to tell me what he's decided; he needs time to to make sure he's made the right decision (my translation: the waffle isn't really done yet).<p>Since the fog swirling around his head is so thick (kind of like the dirt around Pigpen), I can't see clearly into his mind to read it. I really can't say for sure which way he is leaning. <p>I can't tell if the fogese coming out of his mouth is to justify why he's leaving me, or to get me to agree that we should divorce so he can leave with a "clear" conscience (a "mutual decision"), or to get me to give up and tell him to just leave, or to get me to tell him he is free and let him go, or to provide him with an excuse to give OW when he dumps her ("W won't let me leave her, she's making me stay with her"), or to somehow get me to make the decision for him so he can disavow any responsibility for it now and in the future.<p>Things he's been saying recently include:<p>

• We're incompatible.
• There's no reason to continue with this marriage.
• This decision could go your way.
• I may just dump both you and OW.
• If I stay with you I'll never be happy again in my life.
• You don't want me to be happy.
• I tried to leave before but you wouldn't let me.
• You'll never change.
• Things will never change.
• How can I be sure you will change.
• You haven't changed
• You don't really want to be married to me.
• Why do you want to be married to me?
• You hate me.

<p>So now I'm trying to figure out how to react to all this. I've come up with the following possibilites, and would like to hear your take on this and how I might proceed.<p>

• Do nothing.
• Tell him he is free and that I'm letting him go.
• Tell him I'm not trying to force him to stay with me.
• Tell him I want him to be happy.
• Tell him I love him very much and remain committed to our M and want to stay married and am willing to work hard to have a stronger M than before.
• Tell him I only want to continue the M on the basis that it is his choice to stay because he wants to stay and because he wants to be with me and work on the M.

<p>[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: SilverRose ]<p>[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: SilverRose ]</p>

SilverRose,
I am so sorry you are going through this. I know how uncertainty can tear you apart. (((((((((HUGS))))))))
I would opt for a combo of the 2 statements you gave:<p>Tell him I love him very much and remain committed to our M and want to stay married and am willing to work hard to have a stronger M than before.
Tell him I only want to continue the M on the basis that it is his choice to stay because he wants to stay and because he wants to be with me and work on the M.<p>I also don't want my H to stay with me unless he ultimately wants to as HIS OWN DECISION. I will not live with someone because he's staying because of guilt. Even though I am the BS here, and I still love him, if he really doesn't want me, I will find a way to go on without him, instead of continuing to live a lie. There has to be a point where he tells me what he wants. Right now my confidence in him is still very shaky. Just today he told me that while out of town he received an old (Sept) email on his pager. (Pager doesnt get reception here in the north woods, but since he went down to the city he was able to receive it.) He said although he didn't call her, the temptation was great. He decided he didn't need all the confusion/guilt and so went and bought some reloading equipment. H is calling all the shots at this point, but I believe I will be getting stronger and will be able (with God's help) to live with whatever decision he ultimatley makes, even though I may not like it initially. I am going to counseling and he is not.<p>So, Take a deep breath, pray about it. Don't do anything rash. Be the best You can be.
Mikkey

Silver Rose,<p>Did you read the article I posted by Dr James Dobson titled "Set your WS free?" I think you should set your WS free as the article states otherwise you are going to have this waffling forever. Please read the article and see what you think.<p>[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</p>

Dobson's strategy would also help you regain some control of your life along with your self respect.

Mikkey, my situation is similar to yours in that WH is calling the shots at this time too. I am also seeing a counselor, WH refuses to go. My IC told me WH's announcement indicates WH wants to have power over others. WH said he told OW the same thing as he told me.<p>Those last 2 statements do seem like the best to me at the moment. The other ones might be perceived as trying to push or manipulate him.<p>I am concerned that if he stays for any other reason than wanting to be with me, he will be acting like a martyr and blaming me for "making" him give up OW. A true recovery and a stronger M will be impossible to achieve under those circumstances. Things could be worse than they were.<p>He just called me from the car to tell me he's on his way home, and when he signed off said I love you a lot. (At d-day I got the I love you but I'm not "in" love with you any more line.) He really does love me. I do know that. He says I love you to me every single day. He doesn't always add "a lot," so I notice when he does. My IC said after the one time he came in with me that she could tell he loves me by the way he looked at me. This is all so weird.<p>Mikkey I will definitely pray first and act later, and will wait a day or two before saying anything.

Melody, I did read the Dobson article you posted recently. That's what gave me the idea to consider telling him he's free. I'm not sure it's the best idea at this particular moment when he claims to know what he's going to do.<p>My IC says I have very low self-esteem and exert no control over my life and need to work on that.

Scott Said<p>"One rule of MB is, &#8220;Don&#8217;t do anything that you do not intend to keep doing for the next 40+ years&#8221;."<p>Could you tell me where you found this? I missed it somewhere along the way. I'm thinking maybe I missed other stuff too.<p>I only have HN?HN and SAA but have read numerous articles from the MB site.<p>SILVERROSE If your H claims he knows what he's going to do, what is he waiting for? Nothing is in concrete if he hasn't told either one of you, therefore, he is still waffling. It is controlling and inconsiderate to tell you this and keep it hanging over your head.
In my case, H has given me a year to lose the weight and is actively working on the marriage in other ways although to me, he is LBing in his attitude towards me and therefore depleting my love bank for him. Other than continuing to have s*x and verbalizing that he loves me, he has done nothing else to show me overtly that he loves me for real. I continue to feel like I'm walking on eggshells and when he is in a bad mood, drastically withdraw. I think a major part of his problem is his new diagnosis of sleep apnea of which he has an appt this coming Monday and the next to get set up to take care of that. Although we know it will be rough for a while to get used to the equipment, etc, we are hoping his energy level, attitude, and everything else improves once he is getting the oxygen and rest that he has been deprived of for so long.<p>We'll be waiting for your update on this situation. My thoughts are with you. Hang in there.
Mikkey

Play his game, seriously.<p>"I love you and I would really like to work on this marriage and make things right between us. With that said, I understand that you need to make your own decisions, please know that I accept whatever decision that may be. I may not like it, but I accept it. If you know what you want, then go get it, you won't know if it's the right decision until after you make it. I love you." <p>You just told him what you want, you also "set him free" to make his own decision. <p>Also, keep in mind, that these decisions can always change.<p>I had this conversation with my husband. He left, moved out. Got back with OW, turned PA, then realized how wrong his decision was. He would say "I am too proud to admit I was wrong, I can never go back, blah, blah". <p>He's back now. He tells me frequently how hard it is to swallow his pride. How wrong his decision to be with her was, and how he wished he made a different decision...<p>Good luck.
HbH

Silverrose--<p>Hey!! I am sorry you are hurting over this! I know these are tough times, but you WILL get through them!! Have you already told your H all of these things?? <p>If you have, then, I say do nothing. I agree with the part to set him free. I feel this is the only way that you have a choice in the matter. You will feel so much better after you set him free. He and you will not feel so much pressure, and can then move towards each other. When I did that with my H, (let him go--which means to me to leave it in God's hands), things started turning around dramatically! <p>This is my opinion, and it has worked for me.....Know that I am praying for you and your family! <p>Hugs,
Krystal<p>[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: Faith n Him ]</p>

I've heard all the things you've heard and I'm so sorry that you are going through this.<p>The game of CONTROL...he has it and you feel like you don't have any. Well....take control of yourself and quit worrying about him. <p>I know easier said than done....but it works.<p>Quit worrying about his decision....you can't make it for him and it doesn't sound like he really HAS made his mind up....he's just saying all these things to keep you hanging. Been there......many times now.<p>He'll do and say almost anything to make sure that the door of opportunity is always open with you. You've already shown him that you want him....he is assuming that you will always take him back....almost all of them do...no matter what they do or say to us. <p>Myself.....I got mad....and decided that I wasn't going to let him control me that way anymore. If he wanted the door of opportunity to be open then he was going to have to work for it and I don't mean in words......words at this point really don't mean anything....they've already proven that they can mean anything they want them to.
I decided that my WH would have to have some actions behind those words and when they were there....I'd consider doing my part to make my marriage work.<p>That's just me though.....but it worked for me.<p>Don't let the control thing take you over......you can only control what you do and think....but unfortunately it's so easy for the WS to control what not only they think and do....but what you think and do to.<p>If it takes getting mad...then do it....but don't play his game.<p>You can still let him know that you love him and want to be with him but act unconcerened about the whole thing at the same time.

Mikkey, I remember reading the 40-year (or however many years) rule too, but can't remember where I saw it. It makes perfect sense, though. Why make any changes or do things you don't really want to make a permanent part of your relationship. If you can't keep it up, things will go back to the way they were or you will resent doing it, and WS will be unhappy again and claim you were just faking it. I know mine would. One day he said to me, after you make OW go away things will just go back to the way they were. That statement has a couple of interesting aspects to it. One, as if I can make OW go away? Sure I would love it if she dropped off the face of the earth, but nothing I can do will make that happen, and anything I did do would only keep her more firmly entrenched. WH is the only one who can make her go away and rebuff her everytime she tries to come back. Two, for someone who keeps insisting that I haven't changed and nothing has changed, it is strange that WH would worry about things going back to the way they were. That tells me he really has seen the changes even though he won't admit it.<p>By not telling anyone what he has decided, he is clearly reserving the right to continue waffling. This is the third time it looked like we were going to reach a resolution on this. I'm getting tired of it. He's exhausted and totally stressed out from juggling two women. I'm not sure how OW is doing with this, I do not encourage him to talk about her to me because it always turns into an LBing argument. <p>I'm sorry your H is being mean about your weight. I know how hard it is to lose weight. Make sure you are doing it for yourself and not him. I've lost 25 lbs since this mess started, and it's not by dieting, it came purely from the stress. I weigh less than I have in years. My 295 lb. WH has noticed the weight loss, and complimented me on it, but now that I've plateau'ed is starting to bug me about losing more. I need to lose another 25-30 pounds to get into my ideal weight range.<p>I wonder if anybody has ever started a thread about the mean things WS have said and done to them. Would that be too painful to read and post to? Might be. One of the sad things about reading the posts here is that no matter how bad I think WH is treating me, I always see people who are in even worse situations.

HurtByHubby, that is a good variation on the set him free idea, making sure I get it across that it is his decision, that I am not trying to force him into staying or make him feel like he has no choice, and I will accept his decision whichever way it goes. <p>I keep worrying that he is trying to manipulate me into making a bad (for me) move that will enable him to run off guilt-free or stay and then blame me for all of his future unhappiness because I "made" him stay. <p>At this point, if he dumps OW I'm pretty sure they will be parting as star-crossed lovers, even though I suspect she's been making some demands (based on his comment that he's considering just dumping both of us). Hey, maybe she made some demands for him to move in with her again and that is what triggered this so-called final decision. Interesting thought.

FaithNHim, I pretty much have said all these things in one variation or another over the past few months. Initially, in the first week of this, I even begged. That certainly isn't going to happen again, because it would be construed as trying to make him stay or manipulate him, and also because I'm just not going to do it again to maintain some level of self-worth.<p>Thank you for remembering us in your prayers.

Miss Priss, I'm glad that you reminded me that all the things he's saying are the same things many WH's say, and that they are not the words of a person thinking rationally. WH really is a different man now than the one I married. I want my real H back!<p>You may be right that he hasn't really made up his mind. And if he did, he's reserving the right to change it at any time. That's no decision.<p>He's made decisions a couple of times before, but they really were non-decisions in a way since although both times he decided to stay married to me and live with me to see if there was a chance we could continue the M, there was no promise to get rid of OW, and he continues to spend an enormous amount of time with her almost every day. <p>There's really no way to work on the M under these conditions, but it has given me the opportunity to Plan A with close contact. I also thought that him living in one place was less hurtful than moving back and forth as his mind changes. I also thought that I read somewhere on this site, that there is a greater chance of saving the marriage if you don't separate.

[There's really no way to work on the M under these conditions, but it has given me the opportunity to Plan A with close contact. I also thought that him living in one place was less hurtful than moving back and forth as his mind changes. I also thought that I read somewhere on this site, that there is a greater chance of saving the marriage if you don't separate.]<p>
SR.....<p>While it's true that you cannot work on your marriage under conditions like these....it's not really your marriage you should be concentrating on at this point...or your WH for that matter. Right now you should focus on YOU...because who's going to be there for you? YOU!<p>I've heard every line the WS can throw at you.....I want a divorce......I don't know what I want....I can't stand to be in the same room with you....and so on.<p>He hasn't made a decision yet....if he had...he would have acted on it. I don't think they are really capable of making a rationally decision while in the fog. He isn't making a decision...that is his way of stalling...he isn't committed to either one of you completely yet....when he is committed to you or the OW COMPLETLEY then THAT will be a decision.....but he's got you both dangling on his line. I hung on that line until I couldn't take it anymore.<p>Then I decided for myself that I wouldn't play those games anymore and took the control back. Once I finally had it....he saw things in a different light.<p>Now 2 months into recovery after 3 seperations...the last one for 3 months....my WH tells me that when he said those awful things to me that he meant them at the time he said them....but not before or after he said them.<p>You can still recover from this while seperated....but yes it is harder....especially if there are no children involved. We have 3 daughters so he still spent a great deal of time at our house.<p>It's a hard road to travel and it's so easy for me to sit here and tell you this and that.....but really....one way or another...you can come out on top.<p>Take care,
Heather<p>[ November 16, 2001: Message edited by: Miss Priss ]</p>

Back to the first post. Wow! Wow! This fogese is so familiar to me. When I thought about learning another language, I never thought I'd be forced to learn this hideous language [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] !!<p>Personally - I've recently tried the "you should do what you want". My WW said that she feared leaving and not returning - I said - "hey, sounds like you'd end up happy in that situation - why fear it?" A bit of reverse psychology. Her response was along the lines of "but I take my sacred vows seriously you know" - PARDON!?!?!<p>Anyhow, it sounds like all of the above could be applicable. All contain nuggets of wisdom he needs to hear, likely. The key - as I've found - is often in the delivery [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>And the "do nothing" I presume means say nothing - you'll be doing something regardless. At very least working on yourself. I've personally found that I have a delicate balancing game - the right communication at the right time - I'm still trying to figure out all the nuances.

I really liked what HurtbyHubby had to say here.<p>I have also struggled with the issue of "Do I want him to stay only out of guilt?" and I have come to the conclusion that for my situation, which may or may not be like yours, right now the answer is<p>"If the only reason he is staying is guilt, right now it is enough that he stays." Especially since in the fog he may not realize why he is staying, and may say it is only out of guilt.<p>I actually think that the main reason he stayed after Dday was for the kids. Not great for my pride or self-esteem, but as someone else said, if he stays, I have a better opportunity to do plan A.<p>And for the future, well, it's his choice for now to stay or not. No matter what he says, it is not my responsibility to determine whether it is out of guilt or not, that is his problem.

MP,
I have been working on myself. I'm taking a hard look at myself and making improvements in areas that were valid complaints and in problem areas I've identified myself. I'm also seeing an IC weekly. I'm doing this for me. Right now I think I am the person who could come out of all of this the best, since I am working on myself. WH won't -- he takes no responsibility for his share of this mess and feels that he doesn't need to change a thing.<p>WH has made several decisions in all this. WH made a committment to OW back in June when he filed for D and moved in with her. I suspect OW manipulated him into filing to demonstrate his committment to her. This decision lasted all of one week, at which time he moved back home to decide if we could save our M and, at my insistance, immediately had the papers for the D withdrawn. Hey, that was one good move I made ... the D would have been almost final by now. Unfortunately, still being naive at that time (guess what, I'm at least less naive now), I didn't understand that OW wasn't being dumped and that he still planned to see her, thus keeping the emotional ties to her that make it impossible to have a real M. She is a clever OW. She told him to come home and work on the M and make sure, yada, yada, and that she wasn't going to be sleeping with my H anymore. I believed she meant that, but now I know that she had no intention of doing that and just wanted to maintain the emotional ties. A couple of months later he made the decision to stay with me, but it wasn't a committment, it was really a declaration of him still not being sure what he wanted to do. By that time I was getting less naive.<p>I don't know why OW hasn't dumped him yet, since she was expecting him to marry her as soon as both of their D's were final. I wonder what kind of promises he is making to her to string her along for this long. Maybe it is because she doesn't have anything to lose in this deal.

J.R.,
Yes, do nothing really does mean say nothing. That is a good distinction. I know I am doing something with all my Plan A'ing, even though to my IC it looks like nothing.<p>BG,
It does sound like a good idea to not worry about what his reasons for staying are. I'm never going to figure it out for sure, what comes out of his mouth might not be what he really means, and I just drive myself crazy obsessing about it. There are no children, so I am the only attraction. I am happy he is still living with me, but I'm not happy that he's still seeing OW.

>>>> Maybe it is because she doesn't have anything to lose in this deal. <<<<<p>Ah! Yes indeed! How true!<p>For the OM in my case, he's single, and he and WW don't spend much time together than that at work (and some group stuff after work occasionally). I know this because WW is relatively punctual.<p>But it says something - he could be off, dating other women on the time they don't spend together. WW even admits he's somewhat of a lady's man (oh but he's also the sweetest guy in the world too).<p>In some strange respects, I wish they'd just spend a few months together - I know she'd come to see that he's not the perfect vision she imagines in her fantasy.<p>(But I know if she does this, it would do some nasty things to my emotions - might make it hard to repair the damage, at least the way I feel right now.)