ARPOW,<p>You said you plan in not being seen or heard, but what if you do see them leave together? Can you handle just letting them go? I know I could'nt. I would make a HUGE scene and probably pound on one of them. It just scares me, you seem to be setting yourself up for some pain. I just hope you are more capable of dealing with what you may see than I would be.<p>Needing

ARPOW,
I don't know if you ever drop in on the Recovery Board, but here is a post by Twyla for what you probably don't want to do:<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=31&t=005285

I am prepared for the worst. The one thing I have going for me is a very strong circle of support. If I do see them leaving together, so be it, it just shows me that my assuptions were correct all along. This will allow me to answer questions I have had, clear up my thoughts about the truth and allow me to heal and move on. I'm afraid if I don't do this, I will go insane always wondering if "it" did or didn't happen. If nothing happens, I'll know he was (dare I say it)truthful about wanting to work things out, and telling me I shouldn't worry about OW because she is insignifigant to him. If he is all smoochy lovey dovey and they leave together, or meet up afterward, than I will know none of the things he said to me and the C were genuine, and I can move on. But I think not knowing, and having to take his word for it is more damaging to me in the long run than seeing them together. I am a pesemist, I always look at the glass half full, and prepare myself for the worst(one of H's petpeeves) I think I am strong enough of a woman to handle the worst, as matter of fact, I expect it. If I'm wrong, I will be pleasently surprised.

You have a whole slew of other options to find out for sure than putting yourself in that situation. A couple off the top of my head are;<p>
1. Did he leave you a phone # of where he is staying? If not&#8230;Why?
2. Is the friend he is "staying" with single or married? If married call his friend's wife during the party and ask her to give you a call when he makes it back from the party. Of course cause you're concerned about his safety when out partying.
3. Have a friend sit in the bar for you.
4. Hire a PI for the night.
5. Get to the bar early and tip the bartender/waitress $50 to keep tabs on hubby. Take a current picture. (BTW - I did this one long distance with a hotel bartender via credit card and emailed picture). This works best when you can find a bartender/waitress who is married.
6. Does he carry a cell phone? Check the call records for that night.
7. Put a voice-activated recorder in his car. Someone here on this site did that and it seemed to provide them with everything they needed.<p>Just don&#8217;t see it with your own eyes,<p>Lastly, snooping after you already know about the affair is a fool's game. I know, I did it and most everyone else here has too. Let me explain why. What if you do any of the above or your plan and find nothing? Will it make you feel safer or more secure or will you think that you just didn&#8217;t catch him this time. AKA finding nothing means just that&#8230;. nothing and you'll have the desire to keep looking. The only way you are going to get that sense of security and trust is when he opens up and starts acting like someone who deserves to be trusted a little bit more.

Hi Infidelity,
1. no he didn't either the friends house or the bar. He said if I needed to talk to him I could call him on his cell..
2.the friend he is staying with is married with no kids. I think he and his wife know about the A and has covered for H on many occasion.(THERE IS A RED FLAG ON THE FIELD)
3.My H knows all my friends, I could find someone, but its short notice and the party is taking place 2 hrs. away.
4.Again hiring is a great idea, but because of how far from the house it is, its going to cost me a pretty penny. and with x-mas coming....
5.Now this idea was good, and I just might do that, that way I get my info, and my hands are kept clean so to say...that is definatly doable..
6.Yes he has a cell phone, but after I confronted him with the OW he conviently started having the invoices be directly to his office, and refuses to let me see them. (he has nothing to hide huh?
7.The voice recorder, I am going to do at home, but it won't work for the trip, because he is not taking his own car.<p>Thank you for your sugestions that bartender thing I really like....<p> A
Really
Pissed
Off
Wife
- ARPOW -
[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: ARPOW ]<p>[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: ARPOW ]</p>

Hi Arpow,<p>Wow you have plans. You know this could be painful but I understand the 'need to know' is great. From your other post, this OW is a real winner of a loser right? I mean she thinks she owns your H? <p>Be careful. An OW who thinks she has backing will be brave in a crowd. I saw H with OW coming out of a restaurant it was painful and it was not a surprise (H had asked me to be there to witness his breakup - dumb idea)..... That picture and the one on the e-mail are vivd in my mind to this day. It was awful seeing one's H with another woman. That is when it really hit. I was devastated. All my hate and anger wanted to come out but it couldnt. Make sure you have strong people there with you, it could be very emotional no matter how strong you think you are. <p>Take Care,
L.

ARPOW I have been following your story from a lurker's standpoint. Today is the first day I have ever been brave enough to post. As soon as I read everything especially the part where your H told you spouses couldn't attend the party and he would have to stay all night I immediately thought BullS****! I have never heard of a X-mas party that didn't allow any spouses. I think you are wise to check it out for yourself. I'm sorry he is still contacting her. I wish you the best of luck.

O.k. H came home from work last night at 10:00. He gave me some lame excuse about going out for a drink with a co-worker(male of course) and getting lost tring to find his car(yea right). This morning while he was in the shower, I checked his call history in his cell phone, and it all had been erased with the exception of the call he made to me.(whatever) As a last ditch effort, I playfully asked him to call out sick, to spend the day with me.(spend the day in bed,blah blah blah)He said he couldn't call out sick. so I playfully sugessted that maybe he skip the party, we'll put the kids to bed early and I make a romantic dinner. He said he had made a comitment that he couldn't break(ya know he is part of a head count, and for as many people who plan to attend 1 person not showing up will make all the difference)I asked if OW was going he said I don't know. O.k if you have to be at the party, come home afterward. No. Soooo on the road I go. What I feel for him right now is disgust. I can see right through him. I KNOW I will see him doing something a married man should not be doing. I do have strong friends, and knowing I will see what I expect, empowers me mentally. Up till know all the evidence i have of the A is paperwork, that can be, and has been explained away. A picture speaks 1000 words. Because I'm doing this for my boys, and my future, thia will allow me to do this with no outbursts. I heard something funny a couple days ago, a woman told me "a GREEK (nationality) can be the best lover you ever had, or the worst enemy" I think its time he met the latter.(did I mention I was half Greek?) I'll keep you posted

Hoping I'm Allowed Here
You should post more often. Your words are important, and supportive, thank you.

ARPOW,<p> I'm sorry you're dealing with this, I know how much it hurts. But I have to tell you that you really have all you need to know right now. There is no upside to tracking him. At best you expend time, effort, emotion and energy to try force a confession from him. He will likely make another lame excuse, because the reality is he is not going to come clean until he is ready. You could personally catch him in someone else's arms and he would probably try to lie his way out of it. I tell you this out of personal experience and being a member of these boards for a couple years now. When a WS starts going way out of the possibility of reality with their lies when they are confronted, they will normally continue to make up outlandish tales. I just don&#8217;t want to have you make the same mistakes I (& others here) have. <p> Normally these caught red handed situations like you're searching for go something like this. You have hard core evidence that you've worked long and hard to get. Like walking up on/or taking a picture of WH & OW kissing. WH scrambles makes a "just friends & didn&#8217;t mean anything" kinda excuse and then turns the tables on you. (best defense is a strong offence) Telling you that he doesn't have a problem other than you&#8217;re crazy, jealous following him around. Followed by you need help and what ever other rants they can throw at you, then by moving out. Please understand that he likely does not care if you believe him and his tales, it's about him believing himself. <p> If you have to go through with this, which some of us do, try to manage your expectations of red-handed stuff being a silver bullet for disclosure. Also I would do my absolute best to keep every bit of class you can muster by not arguing or debating any of this. If you go there in person to see, then dress to the nines and remain above it all because you are. If a post party confrontation is going to happen then just don&#8217;t argue or debate the facts. Leave it at something simple and vague like "I know what's really going on and it tears me up that you will not talk to me about it"<p>
HI

ARPOW,
I agree with everyone else -- I have been told & I believe that we have a built in radar system that we feel or sense when something is up & most of the time that Radar is accurate. I too am bad speller!
Sounds like youi are coping fairly well with this.
I just urge you to hang in there and not be intimidated by his suggestions that you not go. It wouold be real cool if you could think of a logical reason for you to call his work to verify if spouses are invited. I'm sure with some creativity somone should think of some subtle strategy to call and not make it an embarassment to you or him.
Do you have children?
If so, I might go ahead and arrange for babysitter so with or without him you are available to go!
I know when I was suspious about my WW, but before D/D, she stayed back in Indiana & was going our with her Divorced Cousins to a bar & I track down bar & called her there.
Our adult D was upset at me for doing that & being so untrusting, but as it turned out I was completely justified in my suspsions about her attitude and capacity to cheat! Sometimes it can be a little embarassing & sometimes we don't get the red hot evidence we're looking for, but I believe, when we se & smell some smoke, there is usually a little fire smoldering & even if we don't bust them, we can make them more nervous & this the deception a little less enjoyable & I believe with some pressure and when they know we suspect it could cause their nervousness to make a mistake or tip their plans.<p>Best of luck to you!
We love ya!
HH<p>[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</p>

Arpow<p>As most are telling you, you must be prepared for the emotional pain that you are going to feel when you want to see what it is THAT YOU WANT TO SEE. This sort of discovery is something that alot of us feel so strongly drawn to as we feel we need to know the hard truth as compared to speculating. I for one, needed to find this discovery to know for SURE. Be aware, it is devastating emotionally. I discovered my wife being picked up from work (in the back lane) and witnessed that embrace and kiss and wisking her off to his place for the night. Be sure you have someone to spend the evening with you as you are going to feel extreme pain and anger.<p>Also think about how the conversation is going to go when you see him the next day. If you are going to confront the situation you need to do it in a very short, vague, calm manner - b/c if you do it with alot of anger (which you are going to feel) it will definatley push him away if not over the edge and you will recieve a response that you will not want to hear. Most of all he will be extremely offended if he finds out how you discovered the A. Stay completely away from the fact that you were down there to see what it was that you wanted to know. MAJOR, MAJOR LB. It will also make him even more cautious in his deceit in the future. They will also turn the tables and make you feel immoral for discovering their immoral actions. <p>When spouses are in the fog and the initial addiction of their A they will leave a fairly wide path of clues that they are having an A. If they have any idea of how you found out they will begin to cover their tracks even more carefully.<p>When I confronted the situation and brought the A into discovery they respond by rationalizing and justifing in a way so they do not have to feel the wrongness and guilt in what they are doing, and will bring every negative there possibly is as to why your relationship is not good. Also be aware that by discovering and confronting your H, that the lies will not stop. If you believe that he will have nothing to hide anymore b/c things are now in the open you will set yourself up for more emotional pain.<p>Once my wife had a couple of days to think about the A after it was discovered, she rationalized that it wasn't serious and he was just a friend and the physical part of the A would not continue for the moment. The next morning she took her overnight bag (shampoo, toothbrush, shaving cream, razor, etc.) to work and when I asked her about it she responded that she took it to work to get ready before she went out that night. FOG, FOG, FOG. So beware the lies will not stop if that is what you are hoping for by way of discovery.<p>It is something alot of us are drawn to, is to see the hard cold evidence, but most all here are trying to give you some insight on what you may want to think about that lies ahead after you have found out what it is that you need to know.<p>I swallowed the A for about 3 weeks before I confronted my wife, so before you say anything you may want to post here after this evening and the next few days to get some support and advice as your reaction to him can be critical in terms of your recovery and saving of the M.<p>Good luck!

good luck tonight.
hoping it all turns out well for you.

well, last night was a wash [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] . H called me about 4:00 to tell me he was coming home after the party. I called him at 7:00 and he had just got onto the train, him and friend were running late( he was with the male co-worker, I heard him in the backround).and wouldn't be at the party till after 8:00. He said he was coming home afterward, but didn't know for sure and would call me after the party ended at 10:00. We figured it was best I stayed home, considering the time factor. I called him 3 times from 10:00 till 11:30 and got his voice mail. The final call I left him this message (now mind you Thurs. night he got home at 10:00 in which he promised me he would call if he was running late, from now on) " Ya know, you told me you weren't going to the party, and you went. You told me you were coming home, and your not here. You told me you would call me at 10:00, its now 12:00, and you haven't called. Again I held out my hand, and yet again you smacked it down. You had to do what you had to do. Now I have to do what I have to do. Good night." He finally called me back, at 12:30 and yelled at me for the message. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] I said why are you yelling at me? he said I had no right to be mad at him. He told me he would call me after the party, well the party ran late, he called me as soon as it was over. Oh by the way OW was there he claims they had a breif conversation about the bar and that was it...he called me at 2:30am to tell me he just got to the friends house and was staying. I called a lawyer this morning. I'm looking into filing for divorce. This lepoard will not change his spots. He lives his life for himself, now he can do it alone. I've had enough......

I'm so sorry to hear about this.....though I'm not really surprised that it turned out the way it did.<p>Do you think the he might have possibly gotten wind of your plan?<p>The whole deal with him not calling...totally disrespectful on his part.<p>You reaching his voicemail trying to call him....definately a red flag. <p>If the party ran over and was over at 12:30 and he didn't get to his friends until 2:30 then why didn't he just come home....since it would have been 2 hours that way also?<p>Him saying that you had no right to be mad at him is him trying to justify what he was doing....knowing that it was wrong.<p>Do what you think you have to do.....seems your WH isn't going to change anytime soon. He's still in selfish mode and who knows how long he will be there.<p>Take care,
Heather

Thank you, Heather. I'm giving up the fight. I'm waiting for a call back from a lawyer. He will never change. I don't plan on being his door mat while he grows up and faces the lonely reality that he has created for himself. What he wants in a woman is a submissive sex toy that caters to his every whim, whose whole world revolves around his exsistence, waits on hin hand and foot and has no opinion of her own except his. I am not like that, nor do I plan to ever be. I'm a strong passionate woman who puts my kids first, and who has opinions that I would stand strong to defend. I will be better off on my own. This tension in the house has taken a toll on my boys. [censored] my H as all his EN. I tried my best to make it work, he chose not to. I have to concentrate on me, and damage control for the kids. We'll see what the future brings, I know (from previous statements)H is not going to go quietly. I'll keep you posted..

Arpow --
Update? Have you talked to a lawyer or your H?

Wow, this guy sounds exactly like my xMM.<p>Hope it works out for you.

ARPOW,
I'm sure your feeling some pain, but I have to say hearing your response gave me a boost! A lot of what you described could easily be me with my DW and the dances we have & continues to have.
You are right in my opinion, by what you are doing in that you are giving him a really good motive to change (AS per James Dobson).<p>You'll come back down & feel the tension leave & I hope you are hangin in there!
I like your sponk!! Kick some [censored] for me!!<p>I assume you will want to give him a chance to prove himself?! You just need to get his attention, right?<p>Best of Luck!
HH<p>[ December 18, 2001: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</p>

Yes I contacted a lawyer, he answered some questions. I called him back and left a message.(that was Fri.)I called H at office Fri. morning and found out he never showed up for work, neither did OW. When I asked if the guy he was suposed to be with was at work, they put him on the phone.I said "where is my H?" he said "i didn't want to wake him up, he is still at my house sleeping" (apparently he got drunk at the party). I said "its 11:00 is anyone pissed that he didn't show up?" the guy said "i don't know" I said "are you aware OW is not at work today either?" he said "i'm not sure" I said " she is your secretary how could you not be sure?" he said "i don't know" i said "can I have your phone number so I can call him?" he said "I'll call him and have him call you back" About 10 min later H called me back and said he took a vacation day because he wanted to catch up on some sleep, and wanted to come early to surprise me....that was at 11:00am, H finally came home at 5:00....He took my hand and apologized for the way he treated me, and that he loved me.<p>Sat. morning, I did a bad thing...I looked through his lap top and saw that 3 days before the party, he was looking for room rates for hotels in the area of the party, purchased perfume, and was looking for on lone divorce info. he had also downloaded a song by Aerosmith called "Don't wanna miss a thing". He explained all this away, the room was info he needed to get to turn in to work for a previous stay, the perfume was suposedly for my for Xmas (he has never bought me purfume) and the divorce thing was because he was checking up on info I provided for him.<p>Mon night I had a heart to heart with his younger brother, and he told me H has had lengthly conversations in his presents with OW and H told him he has strong feelings for her, and that his feelings for me are dead. The only reason he is staying is because of the kids. H left for pizza (took the cell phone with him) and 45 min. later, the pizza place called and wondered why the pizza hadn't been picked up. So there I sat in the parking lot waiting for H to pull up on the phone with her. I waited for 20 min. that relized i was being a spaz and went home, he final came home 30 min. later with a cold pie. (he went to the video store) Because his brother begged me not to tell H about our conversation, i couldn't confront him with the info.(his brother would not lie, he dispises H for all the lies and crap he is doing to me) so I asked him straight out to please stop lying to me and come clean. I would rather deal with truth no matter how damning, that all these lies. He denied everything.<p>Tues. I had to force him to go to our C appt. I think we talked a lot and the C's advice to me is if i wanted to make things work I had to trust him. I said I couldn't do that and her advice to me was "give him the rope, what he does with it is up to him." After the appt. I went out, he said he was going with me. Than he changed his mind and said he would stay home to hang with his brother. I found out he left soon after me, and was gone 2 hrs. When I got home his was on the cell with a "freind" who got lost on thier way home from a town near here and needed directions (you know what I was thinking right?)<p>My heart loves this man with everything I have. I want to work things out and have a long happy healty marriage. My head tells me I'm a fool, and I should move on because he is going to hurt again, and again. I don't know what to do. Sorry for the long post......