From reading a lot of the posts on this board...I was wondering about something...<p>I know that, for many of you, the WS isn't having much sympathy for your suffering (at least SEEMING not to). When it's over, though...and you get them back...and they're feeling sorry and guilty...are you going to have any sympathy for what they've been through? Any willingness to listen when they try to tell you why they were unhappy in their relationship with you?<p>Of course, the suffering of the WS isnt anywhere near as severe as the suffering of the BS...but...make no mistake, your WS ARE SUFFERING, even if they try to act like they aren't.<p>I'm honestly wondering about this because...I was a WS...and I went back to my SO. The depths of his love, compassion, and understanding still amaze me. I'm the only one that takes the blame for the affair actually happening...there's no mistake about that. The relationship leading up to that point, though...if he hadn't been willing to listen to what I had to say about it...if he hadn't been willing to take an honest look at the relationship and see that he DID do wrong, right along with me...I probably wouldn't be with him today.

TowardsTheFuture,<p>If you will read the the MB material, perhaps "Surviving an Affair" you will see that a very large part of the recovery process is for the BS to realize their contribution to the state of the marriage at the time the affair happened. In order for the marriage to recovery the BS has to be able to admit this to the WS and appologize for their contribution. So yes, the BS's here, who are living by the MB concepts will listen to what the WS has to say and to their hurt, etc. A marriage can only recover if both spouses realize what is going on.<p>What I see a lot of here on MB (remember that many of these care the really hardcore cases.) Is that the WS does not give a hoot about what the BS says or feels. Nor do they feel any remorse for their affair. It baffles me.<p>In my case. My ex-H still has not remorse for any of his affairs. Every problem in the marriage was my fault and justified his affairs. My current H accepts complete responsibility for his affairs. We have discussed his point of view as well as mine over and over until we feel we got it.<p>Remember that both spouses are responsible for the state of the marriage at the time the affair happened. But the WS is solely responsible for having the affair. I would venture to say that few people here have sympathy for the WS making that choice.<p>I do realize that some people have their EN unmet to the extent that they are literally driven from their marraige. But there are other ways to handle this then having affairs. That is why I divorced my ex-H. <p>My current marriage is an unusual case in that my H was having affairs for the entire time we were engaged up the 9th month of our new marriage. He says and still does that he's always loved me and has always been happy with our relationship. His affairs had to do with solving some personal issues. In a case like ours, there is not much responsibility I can take for the way things were when he was having his affairs. But I still listen to his side of things so that I understand him and we can both work on healing him and our marriage.<p>I don't know if this answers your questions.<p>Are you seeking sympathy for having the affair? I guess there is something in your post that I don't understand.. what are you looking for?<p>[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>

I understand where you're coming from...I only hope that someday the WS that haven't acknowledged their wrong will do so. For my part, at least...unhappy or not, I had no right to have an affair. I should have either demanded that things change for the better...or I should have just left.<p>:: Hindsight's 20/20 I guess.
[img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

TTF,<p>First of all, I wanted to thank you for your post. As a matter of fact, I have thinking about this same topic over the past few days and was also wondering the same thing.<p>I am WW and my H refuses to talk about my EA and blames me for everything if I try to approach the subject with him. I have ended all contact w/OM and am willing to be honest and re-commit to my M. My H is avoiding the topic and just says that I am COMPLETELY to blame. I have taken full responsibility for all my actions and my decision to engage in the EA. Now, I would like him to agree/admit with me that we both are responsible for the state of our R prior to the EA. I don't know how to interpret his silence. He is avoiding this like crazy. Maybe he is afraid to admit that we BOTH failed one another...I don't know. Just thinking out loud. How did you get your S to take an honest look at your M? How did you get him to listen to your thoughts/fears/etc?<p>I agree with you. I am very interetsed in hearing the BS's opinions on this. Thanks for your post!

Honestly...it was going to counseling that played a large part in my SO's realizations that he WAS partly to blame for the state of our relationship before I had the affair. My SO has always been a terrible listener, always tuning out something if it doesn't fit neatly into his view of "how things should be". He's also guilty of BIG TIME LB'ing with his disrespectful judgements.<p>He really didn't see the wrong of what he was doing until we went to counseling together...once he did, he was HORRIFIED. I've had several realizations as well concerning LB'ing with dishonesty (a withheld communication is being dishonest, and I withheld so much of my anger and hurt over his behavior for years at a time, pretending that everything was fine). <p>Personally...I think effective counseling is key to recovery after an affair...I honestly wouldn't know how to handle it if there were an unwillingness on either end to get counseling. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

sorrowful <p>Even though you are the WW, your h's behavior and refusal to admit to his part of the martial problems puts him in a very bad light. Two wrongs do not make a right.<p>It is not unusual for a person to not see their own faults as interspection is a very hard thing to do sometimes.<p>If you H does not come around then I'd say your marriage has little chance for recovery. <p>Have the both of you read "Surviving an Affair"? This might help.

Zorweb, you were correct...it's not sympathy for having the affair that I was asking about...it was an understanding that there were things wrong in the relationship that led up to the point of the affair. There's no excuse for having an affair...that's the "low road", as I like to call it...but my SO and I were BOTH responsible for the state of the relationship pre-affair. I'm just saying that had he not been able to acknowledge this, and not been able to sympathize with where I was coming from, I probably wouldn't have been able to stay with him.

And you would have been right to leave him. A person who will no acknowledge their contribution to marrital problems and work on them does not deserve to be married.<p>I get so frustrated hearing people refuse to work on things. grrrr<p>What is important is that you and your H have found a way to recover your marriage. I'm glad to hear it. Don't spend too much time beating yourself up for your affair. That helps no one. There is a fine line between showing remourse and being obsesive and distructive with the guilt.<p>I think that the most important part of showing remorse is in daily living. And that goes for both the WS and the BS.<p>[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>

Thank you for making very good point. It does take two people to make or break a marriage. I just wish I could get that through to my H. I have shown him more love and compassion than I thought I had in me over the last two years. I have always been here to listen (really listen) and not condemn him both during the A through the present.
Through it all though he refuses to take any responsibility for anything he has done. Imagine hearing your H tell you 'if you hadn't changed I would not be here right now' or that he had never done anything that hurt me in almost 20 yr of marriage that it was all me. I just wonder where that compassion is for me?<p>I have looked at and been brutally honest about the role I played in the downfall of our marriage.
Shared my feelings and failings, not in an accusatory fashion, but just simply and honestly as it related to me. But my H has continued much as before. NOw how do I handle that?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TowardsTheFuture:
<strong>From reading a lot of the posts on this board...I was wondering about something...<p>I know that, for many of you, the WS isn't having much sympathy for your suffering (at least SEEMING not to). When it's over, though...and you get them back...and they're feeling sorry and guilty...are you going to have any sympathy for what they've been through? Any willingness to listen when they try to tell you why they were unhappy in their relationship with you?<p>.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>There are alot of cases here where the WS went for YEARS with unfilfilled needs so it's REAL important to the recovery of the marriage that you find out what happened and what led to the affair. On the other hand, we have cases - like mine - where it wasn't about unfilfilled needs at all since it was a brand new marriage. But the point that you make is an ESSENTIAL one that Marriage Builders emphasizes in recovery.

I should add that I have NO sympathy for one having an affair. It is a mean, hateful, despicable act that is unjustifiable. I do, however, have sympathy for those who have suffered for years with unfulfilled needs. Even so, that does not justify having an affair, especially since we know that having an affair does not SOLVE marital problems but creates them.

No one's saying that anyone is justified in having an affair, or that they deserve sympathy for having one...that's not the question here (and frankly not up for debate...an affair is WRONG).<p>I'm just saying that both sides have to understand where the other is coming from regarding the relationship leading up to the affair. Having the affair doesn't "cancel out" what happened leading up to it...not if the relationship is going to be fixed, at least.<p>I'm not sure how much more I can clarify where I'm coming from here [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] Actually, I think it's pretty clear...but then why the references to having sympathy for someone in an affair? That's not what I was asking about at all...and I'm sure it wasn't an attempt to willfully misunderstand what I was saying just to get a "dig" in.<p>Oh, well...my question was answered...most people seem to realize that whatever was wrong on both sides of the relationship prior to the affair needs to be addressed.<p>[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: TowardsTheFuture ]</p>

TTF,<p> I won&#8217;t get into the full-blown debate here. Instead, I'll stick to your initial question. In my marriage, my wife supposably ended her affair over a year and half ago and I did all the help her through this rough time plan-a things, took full credit for my part in the previous state of our marriage. To this date she has no remorse, sorrow or sympathy for the situation. If she is sorry about anything at all it is the fact that she got caught or that I didn&#8217;t follow her agenda by not throwing her out. So not all WS are deserving of those feelings that follow true forgiveness. Unfortunately for many of the BS's here, their WS's view the MB plan-a treatment as a free pass to continue their childish behavior even after the EMA has faded. The MB mantra is mostly to keep trying, so several of the BS you read about here have stayed way beyond their own ability to reconcile. <p> On the other side of the coin the WS that do come home to rebuild their marriage will pay a penance so to speak. I myself do not believe that the penance should be for the purpose of getting even. It should be more of an attitude of going out of their way to rebuild some level of trust or being completely accountable for their time or friends in some cases. It might be a loss of the privilege of going out with the boys/girls or not having opposite sex friends that the BS is not included in on. It might mean changing jobs or even moving. Yes.. it is somewhat of a police state for a while, but it should be the WS duty to avoid any triggers. I would assume in time that with the return of some level of trust that the policing would diminish down to a reasonable level for the circumstances. So if things like these are considered getting even by the WS, then they're priorities in life are still a bit off. If a BS's are not focused on things of this nature, then they stayed around too long or should not have gotten married in the first place.<p>
JMHO,
HI

TowardsTheFuture,<p>RE: I'm not sure how much more I can clarify where I'm coming from here Actually, I think it's pretty clear...but then why the references to having sympathy for someone in an affair? That's not what I was asking about at all...and I'm sure it wasn't an attempt to willfully misunderstand what I was saying just to get a "dig" in.’<p>RE: When it's over, though...and you get them back...and they're feeling sorry and guilty...are you going to have any sympathy for what they've been through? <p>I think that the reason some people were not sure if you meant “having sympathy for someone in an affair”. I because of the way you stated the above sentence. The WS has been through a lot and it was unclear what part, or all of it, you were talking about.<p>There are many WS who have come here who feel that they are the victim or are angry because they are giving up their OP. I for one was not sure if that was what you were talking about. Thought that may be you were asking if any BS’s have sympathy for the some WS’s go through withdrawing from the OP.<p>I don’t think anyone was taking a dig at you. I know I was not.<p>What you have written here is on the money in the cases in which the BS has not met the WS’s emotional needs prior to the affair.<p>Not all affair happen as yours did. There are many cases in which the BS has tried to meet the WS’s needs but the WS behaves a lot like your H did through the entire marriage. In my previous marriage, my H would tell anyone that I did not meet his needs. But he after I lost our twins in childbirth in the first year of marriage, he stopped trying to meet my needs. I kept trying to meet his needs for years afterwards. But he, like many spouses, would not accept my attempts at meeting his needs. It was like putting love deposits in a bank with a hole in the bottom. He also refused to cooperate in all my attempts to get us help and build a healthy relationship. I know that I was not a perfect spouse. No one is. But I was trying… as you know from what you said above, no one person can save a marriage on their own.<p>There are also cases where the BS has met the WS’s needs. Remember that we can only meet a person’s needs in so much as they are communicated to us. Yet the WS will cheat anyway. They may never give the BS a chance to meet their needs. MelodyLane and I can attests to these cases as it seems that both of our spouses started having affairs before we were even married and had a chance to not meet their needs. There is no possible way she nor I can be held responsible for not meeting our H’s needs.

::scratches head:: I just don't get why someone who was cheating before marriage would even want to get married to begin with?<p>It also puzzles me that a WS can think that an affair isn't their fault. I'm sorry that there are BS out there that are having to deal with a SO so far in denial [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Well answering to the original question:<p>I am a BS and I have a huge problem with anger right now.
My husband had me cheated for 2 years, he lowered me into leaving all I had for him, into marrying him, into living a hell. I am guilty of being in love, naive and stupid.<p>I have tried to get out of him what did I do wrong, what wasn't I putting into our marriage, his answer every single time: "It was not you, it was all me, you will always be the most amazing 4wife, friend, companion, lover a man could ever have".<p>That is like punching me in the face, it is like saying "You did everything and more, but I still decided to sacrify you for a piece of cr@p".<p>Yes I am mad at him, and I know, believe me I KNOW he is in pain. I am the one holding him when he cries, the one cleaning his wounds no matter how bad they are, the one that has held his hand through this journey and those before it. <p>I am just mad that I don't seem to have anything to do with this. If I was wonderful, then
He then answers: "I just wasn't ready to love anybody"
So I ask "Then why tell me you loved me, why compose this whole picture of you being so madly in love with me? why on earth would you marry me??"<p>I know he is in pain and I try to emphazise and I still do love him and that is why I stick with him, that is why I don't LB, no matter how great the need of it I have. I always speak the truth about my feelings, so if something scapes he knows I am just in the heat of my own internal battle.<p>I just don't know how to do better.<p>By the way he's the one plan A'ing me and we are still early into recovery, but we'll see what else happens.

TowardsTheFuture,<p>RE….. ::scratches head:: I just don't get why someone who was cheating before marriage would even want to get married to begin with? <p>It happens more often then we realize. I have really struggled with this. My H has also struggled with how he could have done such a thing.. It is totally against every thing he believes in. Amazing what a person can do in the ‘fog’. The reasons are different for everyone. In some cases it’s a life long pattern, in other’s it’s a temporary way of dealing with personal issues.<p>After much soul searching and counseling we think we know what was going on in our case. Basically we got involved too soon after his divorce. His ex-wife had left him for her OM. He was still dealing with the crushed ego and pain from that relationship… so he was ‘dating’ in an attempt to prove he was ‘lovable’ and I think to get back at women in general too. I believe this was a once in a life time thing and we are beyond it.<p>RE: It also puzzles me that a WS can think that an affair isn't their fault. I'm sorry that there are BS out there that are having to deal with a SO so far in denial<p>This happens all the time too. My ex-H is like that. My husband’s ex-W is too. They both still think that their affairs (they both had more then one) were totally justified and that they were the injured ones in the marriages. They also both think that they did nothing to contribute to the failure of the marriages.<p>It takes all kinds in this world. That’s all I can say.