<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>snl...I must differ marie on this point, there is only 1 truth, and whoever gets it wrong is not going to be happy with the consequences..<hr></blockquote><p>Oh, SnL...you crack me up [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . You really do!<p>Now, you do realize that Zorweb's and my own beliefs are very much in sync...right???? yes???? Aside of course from a few minor "tweaks"...which really don't distract from the "one truth" that we BOTH believe in. <p>Or, do you really not "see" it?<p>Peace, ~Marie<p>[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: ohmy_marie ]</p>

All religious issues aside, forgiveness boils down to this:<p>If the act that caused the emotional distress/turmoil no longer causes that condition, a person has forgiven the act, in that their emotional condition is restored to the state it was in prior to the act that caused the emotional distress/turmoil.<p>This state is achievable without a person petitioning for the act of forgiveness; however, in actual practice, a primary trigger for the resolution of the emotional conflict is a show of remorse and repentence.<p>In restoring the previously existing state, if you didn't like a person prior to the act that caused the emotional turmoil/distress, then "liking" that person is not a condition of "forgiveness". The act of forgiveness means that you have emotionally resolved the action and it no longer causes you distress, and that the previous standing of that person is restored.<p>If the act still triggers an emotional state, then you have not fully resolved it and, in fact, have not fully forgiven.<p>Absolution, on the other hand, is a complete wiping of the slate, no matter what emotional issues may still remain. Absolution, in real practice, is not achievable by human beings; being a condition of reinstatement of grace with the Divine Being (God).<p>I note herein many religious connotations and interpretations, most of which are theologically unsound in Christianity: much ado about "my interpretation of Christianity is better than yours."<p>So, insofar as Christianity goes: unless you are directly relating the precepts of the Antiochan church, as establish by the Apostle Peter, you are expounding on theology that is divergent from the original. All religions post-Christ are splinter theologies of that one and true Christian Church. (Remember, Christ established that Peter was the rock upon which the church would be built, and not Paul who went off to Rome to establish a church there.)<p>In current 21st century practice, the Orthodox churches of Greece, Russia and the Middle East, and the Byzantine Catholic churches, come the closest to maintaining the original precepts of the chuch and word of God as taught by the original Antiochan church.<p>All other post-Antiochan churches, primarily Protestant and Mohammedian (i.e., Islamic) churches, splintered from that original truth because, in some fashion or manner, they could not conform.<p>This is analogous to taking a position of: "gee, I like the marital vows, except the part about fidelity. So I guess I better institute a new version of the vows so I can feel good about myself."<p>For those who desire to learn more, check out the writings of Timothy Ware (and others) on Orthodoxy.<p>Godspeed,
A happy and safe holiday season to all,
STL

Forgiveness is a Gift You Give Yourself
by Michelle Weiner-Davis<p>Are you someone who walks around feeling angry with your spouse or loved one much of the time? Do you have a little inner voice that constantly reminds you of all of his or her wrongdoings? Have you become expert at remembering all the minute details of past injustices just so that you can keep score? If this describes you at all, you better read what I&#8217;m about to say and take it to heart. <p>Lack of forgiveness imprisons you. It takes its toll on your physical and emotional health. It keeps you stuck in the deepest of relationship ruts. No matter how justified you feel about your point of view regarding your partner&#8217;s insensitive behavior, you still are miserable. When you wake up each morning, a gray tint shadows your life. You walk around with a low-grade depression. You can&#8217;t feel joy because you&#8217;re too busy being angry or feeling disappointed. <p>In the face of these fairly obvious disadvantages, you hang on to your belief that, since you feel let down, you must not &#8220;give in.&#8221; To you, giving in means forgiving, letting go, making peace. To do so, would be tantamount to giving up your soul. So, you keep your distance. You interact in perfunctory ways, never allowing your partner to step over the emotional line you&#8217;ve drawn. And though the distance often feels intolerable, forgiveness is not on your short list of solutions to your dilemma. <p>I have worked with so many couples who say they want to heal their relationships. And yet, when they&#8217;re offered the tools, they can&#8217;t seem to move forward. These are the couples who, instead of finding effective ways to get beyond blame, continue to repeat their mantra, &#8220;Our problems are your fault and you must pay.&#8221; As long as they maintain this mindset, they are doomed to failure. How very sad. Even sadder are their children who, on a day-by-day observe their parents being &#8220;right&#8221; but &#8220;miserable.&#8221; What lessons are they learning about love? <p>If any of this strikes a chord with you (and you wouldn&#8217;t be reading this if it didn&#8217;t), you need to internalize that forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. Letting go of resentment can set you free. It can bring more love and happiness into your life. It opens the door to intimacy and connection. It makes you feel whole. Forgiving others takes strength, particularly when you feel wronged, but the fortitude required to forgive pales in comparison to the energy necessary to maintain a sizable grudge. The person most hurt by holding out or blaming is YOU, no matter what the circumstances. <p>&#8220;All this sounds good,&#8221; you tell yourself, &#8220;but how can I ever forget what my partner did to me?&#8221; Good question. You don&#8217;t! Forgiveness is not the same as forgetting. You will probably always remember the particular injustice(s) that drove you into your corner. But what will happen, is that when you forgive, the intense emotions associated with the event(s) begin to fade. You will feel happier, lighter, more loving. And these renewed positive feelings won&#8217;t go unnoticed. Others will be drawn to you. <p>Just keep in mind that forgiveness isn&#8217;t a feeling. It is a decision. You decide that you are going start tomorrow with a clean slate. Even if it isn&#8217;t easy, you make the determination that the alternative is even harder, and that you are going to do what you must to begin creating a more positive future. <p>So promise yourself, that no matter what the reason, you will not go another day blaming your partner and feeling lonely. Make peace. Make up. Make love. I promise you that the benefits of deciding to forgive go far beyond anything you can picture in your mind&#8217;s eye at the moment. Your decision to forgive will create a ripple effect of exponential changes in your life.<p>[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

Forgiveness
by JustMe
June '2000<p>I thought that my H and I were in recovery, but we stopped being in recovery when I told him that it would take time for me to forgive him. That was my first mistake! <p>I realize now (and I know this goes against Harley's principles) that if anything is to get better, if you are to unburden yourself of these painful memories or even if it is still going on.....that you must FORGIVE!!!!<p>FORGIVENESS is the key here! Forgiving your spouse of all of the hurt they caused and their mistakes they made, allows YOU to be free! It allows you to release the pain that you are carrying around, and for God to carry it for you! It allows your spouse to be released also so that God can work on their hearts and their minds! Since I am not great at expressing what I feel, I am posting something that I found about forgiving: By Joyce Meyer www.jmministries.org <p>Many people ruin their lives and their health by eating the poison of bitterness, resentment, and unforgiveness. Matthew 18:23-35 tells us that, if we do not forgive people, we get turned over to the torturers. If you have a problem in this area or have ever had one, I am sure you bear witness with what I am saying. It is torture to have hateful thoughts rolling around inside of you toward another person. <p>Who Are You Helping When You Forgive? <p>Who are you helping the most when you forgive the person who hurt you? Actually, you are helping yourself more than the other person. I always looked at forgiving people who had hurt me as being a really hard thing to do. I thought it seemed so unfair for them to receive forgiveness when I had gotten hurt. I got pain, and they got free without having to pay for the pain they caused me. Now I realized that I am helping myself when I choose to forgive. I am helping the other person also by releasing them, so God can do what only He can do. If I am in the way, trying to get revenge or taking care of the situation myself instead of trusting and obeying God, He has no obligation to deal with that person. However, God will deal with the people who hurt us if we will put them in His hands through forgiveness. It is our seed of obedience to His Word; and once we have sown our seed, He will bring a harvest of blessing to us one way or another. <p>I am helping myself, because when I forgive I release God to work. I am happy when I am not full of the poison of unforgiveness. I feel better physically. Serious diseases can come as a result of the stress and pressure that bitterness, resentment, and unforgiveness put on a person. Mark 11:22-26 clearly teaches us that unforgiveness hinders our faith from working. The Father cannot forgive our sins if we do not forgive other people (we reap what we sow). Sow mercy, and you will reap mercy; sow judgement, and you will reap judgement. Do yourself a favor and forgive. <p>There are still more benefits of forgiveness. When you are willing to forgive, your fellowship with God has a free flow. Unforgiveness blocks it. Paul said that we are to forgive in order to keep Satan from getting an advantage over us (11 Corinthians 2: 10-11). Ephesians 4:26-27 says that we are not to let the sun go down on our anger. Do not give the devil any such foothold or opportunity. Remember that the devil must have a foothold before he can get a stronghold. Be quick to forgive. Do not help the devil torture you. I also think it is hard to hate one person and love another. When we are full of wrong things, it is hard to treat anybody right. Even people you want to love may be suffering from your bitterness, resentment and unforgiveness. <p>How To Forgive <p>Like everything else, there are practical steps to forgiving people that must be taken if we are going to be successful at it. I asked the Lord why so many people seem to want to forgive and yet are not successful doing it. He said, "because they are not obeying what I tell them to do in the Word." As I searched the Word, I found the following instructions: <p>1. Decide - You will never forgive if you wait to feel like it. Choose to obey God and steadfastly resist the devil in his attempts to poison you again with bitter thoughts. Make a quality decision, and God will heal your wounded emotions in due time. <p>2. Depend - You cannot forgive without the power of the Holy Spirit. It is too hard to do on your own. If you are truly willing, God will enable you; but you are going to need to humble yourself and cry out to Him for help. In John 20:22-23, Jesus breathed on the disciples and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. " His next instruction was about forgiving people. We certainly can use this as an example and ask Him to breathe on us that we might be able to forgive those who hurt us. <p>3. Obey - There are several things we are told do in the Word concerning forgiving our enemies. <p>a. Pray for your enemies and those who abuse and misuse you. Pray for their happiness and welfare (Luke 6:27-28 Amplified). As you pray, God may be able to give them revelation that will bring them out of deception. They may not even be aware they hurt you, or maybe they are aware but are so self-centered that they do not care. Either way, they need revelation. <p>b. Bless and do not curse them (Romans 12:14). In the Greek, to bless means "to speak well of" and to curse means "to speak evil of." You cannot forgive and gossip or be a talebearer. You must stop repeating the offense. You cannot get over it and also continue to talk about it. Proverbs 17:9 says that he who seeks to cover an offense seeks love. <p>Who Should Forgive? <p>Forgive the person from long ago who hurt you very badly and also the person whom you did not know in the grocery store, for stepping on your toe. Take those two extremes and forgive them in addition to everyone in between. Forgive quickly. The quicker you do it, the easier it is. Forgive freely. Matthew 10:8 says freely you have received, freely give. Forgiveness means to excuse a fault, absolve from payment, pardon, send away, cancel, and bestow favor unconditionally. <p>When you forgive, you must cancel the debt. Do not spend your life paying and collecting debts. Hebrews 10:30 says that vengeance belongs to the Lord; He will repay and settle the cases of His people. Let God pay you for past injustices; do not try to collect from the people who hurt you, because the people who hurt you cannot pay you. Matthew 18:25 says ..."he could not pay". <p>Also forgive yourself for past sins and for hurts you have caused others. You cannot pay people back, so ask God to. <p>Forgive God if you are angry at Him because your life did not turn out the way you thought it should. God is always just. There may be things you do not understand; but God loves you, and people make a serious mistake if they will not receive help from the only One who can truly help. <p>You may even need to forgive an object--the post office, bank, a certain store you feel cheated you, a car that always gave you trouble, etc. Get rid of all poison that comes from bitterness, resentment, and unforgiveness; and remember Proverbs 4:23 (Amplified), "Keep and guard your heart with all vigilance...for out of it flow the springs of life." <p>Unforgiveness is spiritual filthiness; get washed in the water of the Word and stay clean. God bless you!

patient,
If your husband it the greatest, and you forgive, and love yourself sooo much (you could be a twin)..<p>Then why are you still so (obviously) ANGRY....<p>waste of time, waste of energy

In reference to Orchid's reply....that is exactly how I feel right now. The OW has stolen my H., moved in with him, and is trying to steal my kids from me. She bought them all sorts of Christmas presents.<p>We aren't even divorced. She knew from day one that he was married and had four kids. Of course he has fed her all sorts of lies too. But even so...she chose to go along with him. Am I angry and bitter...you bet. I am supposed to forgive her...no way. I won't forgive him this time either. What they have done is destroy my family and my future. This was supposed to be my retirement years....getting ready for our final retirement. We have lost everything...financially we are dying. Emotionally, this has really hurt the kids and me...their selfish, self-centered acts. Jim wants me to forgive and move on with my life. Well, I am broke, I have 4 kids to raise by myself (he will take them for suger-daddy weekends 2 a month, when it is convenient for him), my oldest daughter has no money to go to college next year---all because of them. <p>I get dragged to court because he says he doesn't get to see them. Well, he picked 2 of them up--didn't take my son to cub scouts because he hadn't eaten, my other two daughters had to drive themselves up to his apt because he didn't pick them up, he brought them back 6 hours early today....it all has to do with what he wants. Am I ever going to forgive him.....I don't think so. I have forgiven him for years. I have stood by this man through thick and thin. I was a great wife for his military asperations. And then he threw me away for a 28 year old bimbo. The whole thing is incredibly sad and I am totally ashamed of him and his behavior. I wish I never had to deal with him again. I don't want to hear about anyone telling me to forgive him.....you don't know how many times I have forgiven this man....next time it will have to be God that forgives him....I have given up.

Boy MnM, I could have written this. You know I've been thru the cheating mill more than once and betrayed beyond belief ... thing is, forgiveness isn't for THEM, it's for us.<p>If we don't forgive, we will carry this big wad of badness around in us the rest of our lives. It will keep us from being happy. <p>MnM, tell me what you consider forgiveness of your H .... cuz I'm struggling with the same issue and I feel like my XH will never ever deserve my forgiveness. <p>Jo<p>[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

diamonda<p>Why do you feel this way?<p>What makes you think that I'm (obviously) ANGRY?<p>Is it because I have no respect for OW and no desire to forgive her? I am not struggling with any of this. <p>If you take the time to respond, please include why you think I am bitter, also. Because, I have notcied that ALL ow, will inenvitably say that the wife is ANGRY and BITTER?

SIGH!!! Isn't it time to kill and bury this thread? Aren't we all going through enough without all this? I know I don't have to read it and I won't stop in again to see any replies to my post.<p> This is bordering on stupidity.<p> jd

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by BrambleRose:
<strong><p>It's my understanding (as a Catholic) that God's forgiveness is freely given if we ask for it and not before. <p>As for the my H's OW - she hasn't asked for my forgiveness. Why should I forgive her? She doesn't believe that she did anything wrong. <p>My H on the other hand, has asked for forgiveness, and is taking steps to make sure that the wrongs he can right are righted, and making sure that this doesn't happen again. The remorse, repentance and desire to earn forgiveness are all there. <p>At this point, I don't believe I have the right not to forgive him. So for today, while I am not there yet, I'm willing to become forgiving.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Same here. I was taught that you had to REPENT, feel REMORSE and ASK for forgiveness. My H did all of those things. The OW did none of them. Instead, she decided to basically stalk me. OP and unrepentant WS are always saying "We are all only human." Fair enough. I am only human. I can't force myself to have feelings of forgiveness for her. That is no problem for me and it doesn't effect my life or my marriage. When it comes to Judgment day if the worst thing I have done in my life is hate the woman who had an affair with my H and then tried to make my life a living hell after it was over, then I think I'm in pretty good shape.