Could you please answer a ? for me? When I found out about my WH and OW, they were together on vacation. I called and he made her talk to me. Even ask her to lie about his being there. She told me he left days before and was coming home to me. To work on our marriage and he told her he loved me. Of course, I believe she made up the telling her he loved me part. But they had mutually agreed to go home to their Spouses.
How would you feel if the man in the A with you made you do this?
I somehow feel it gave her a wake up call. That he was telling her how he loved her, wanted to leave me, but then make her tell lies to protect him somewhat.
Would a red flag have gone up for you? Or would you feel more privileged to have him involve you talking to his wife?
Just curious what you would feel or think.
thank you for taking the time to post an answer.
May your lives be blessed in a way God wills for you all. And may you find the right type of happiness after the events that caused all pain.
It's hard to feel for OW, but I do realize people get caught up in fantasy, and make some bad choices in life. But that doesn't mean you can't turn your life around, repent,get forgiveness and find blessings from God by being in his will.
LouLou

ladylou,
As an OW I was always honest w/ MM and advised that if ever confronted by W I would not lie for them. I also never hid our relationship - even though we worked together. And as promised when I spoke w/ the W I was very truthful.

If my MM had asked me to do what she did, he would be out of my life.

I also saw your other post about the ring. I have been w/ 2 MM. Both would take their ring off. However, both had also left it at my house. I began asking them to just leave it on. I didn't want to be responsible for it going missing. tew

My A was an EA only,and as soon as it was discovered by OM's W,everything came out in the open.

The OM never asked me to lie for him in any way. In fact,he said that if it ever became a PA he would ask for a divorce immediately,because he would refuse to take part in deceptive aspect of a PA...kinda warped,fogbound thinking obviously,because the EA was also deceptive. (We do not live near each other).

I was extremely uncomfortable with the deceptive aspects of what I was doing,and didn't even like the occasional sexual remark the OM made,even though they were pretty tame. Why? Because it cast the A in the true light of what it was: deceitful,wrong,SINFUL. I wanted it to be romantic and oh-dear-we-just-can't-help-it!

I have a hard time relating to OW's who take part in ongoing PA's...there is still a part of me that says rather primly,"Oh,I just couldn't do that!" But unfortunately, I can't judge them anymore...because I know for a fact that I'm capable of much more than I think I am. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Tewjtm, Sincere1, thank you for your post. I appreciate hearing the other side.
I also hope there will be more who will post their point of view.
I really would like to believe the OW told me the truth. But I did catch her in lies so it's hard once you know they are lying about anything.
She said they never had sex. Well, WH told me differently, but they didnt' have intercourse because she has atrophy bad according to him.
they used hands only he said. And that was why he didn't want his ring on anymore.
Who knows. I just know the wondering is enough to drive one insane as to what and who they can believe.
I do think since he put it back on before flying there, he would leave it on. And she would keep hers on too. Why bother to take them off when they both knew they were married?
Anyhow, I just wondered how OW felt having to take the call and lie for him. I would say it would make me feel pretty rotten. And used!
I would expect a man to take responsibility for talking to his wife and leave me off the phone!
I was pretty nice at first,until I felt lies and then I let go. And she took it on the chin and never hung up.
According to him, he ran outside on patio to smoke and refused to talk to me. Letting her take it and lie for him about having left days before.
I say he was pretty dirty to do that to her too.
Thanks again, LouLou

The fog does strange things to people in an A. My OM had me lie to his wife - or should I say had me omit important information to her. He pretended we were just friends and brought me into her company on a couple of occasions where I was to pretend nothing was going on. It made me feel used and uncomfortable and helped lift the fog. It showed what a jerk he was to blatantly flaunt me as the OW in front of her when she had no clue. Disgusting. It was disgusting that I agreed to it also. Like I said fog and it helped make the fog lift. So, would I have lied again for him? No.

LL,

I'll answer your question.

Each EMR is so different that there's no way in the world that I could answer what the OW in your situation was feeling.

Personally, it would not have bothered me if my MM wanted me to give his wife such a message. (i'll explain in a moment) Maybe our deal was different. He knew about my partner(s) just as I knew about his wife. HE and I were best friends as well as lovers. We had a very long term affair and so maybe that's what made the difference for us. We had a 6 year EA before it became a PA, so it wasn't just about sex. There was a genuine friendship between us.

So for him to say that he loved his wife was a relief for me. It meant that he would not be looking for more from me. I didn't have more to offer him.

I think that some BS's falsely assume that all OW are looking to replace them. I'm sure that some OP do. Personally, I don't think that's the case for many married OP and it wasn't the case for me. So him loving his wife was of no consequence to me. IF he said that he didn't love me anymore, THAT would have hurt. But if you're a married OP you are painfully aware of how possible it is to love more than one person at a time.

I've never been the OW, but in my H's and his xOW's situation, as in yours, neither of them ever had any intentions of leaving their marriages, their affair was strickly for as long as they thought they could get away with it, which was until they figured they'd go their separate ways with no one discovering it. Talk about fog! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

If I had confronted them in the way that you confronted your H, I don't think she would have had the least problem doing exactly what your H's xOW did. They KNEW from the get go that it wasn't going to last forever, they knew that both wanted their marriages, and/or loved their spouses, they just wanted to have a little distraction from their normal everyday life. A lot of ego stroking going both ways, a little "harmless" flirting, a little "I'm more important to you" lie to live in the moment for, etc. A little extra sexual action with someone new and different.

Now if the OW was deeply involved in the affair emotionally and she was wanting more then the MM was willing to offer and he put her in this type of position....

It would have been crushing! It would have been much more then a "wake up call", it would have exposed the OW to what role she was truly playing in this MM's life...one of a side dish, never to be the main course. I would think she'd look at the MM and wonder how someone who was only just a moment before holding her in his arms could be so cruel and uncaring.

jmho...from someone who has never traveled that path.

Hydra, KatieS and Justawifey. thank you.
From emails, it seemed she has assumed he was going to divorce and marry her, same as she implied she was seeking freedom.Their EA lasted from March 2001 to end of July 2001. That was their first meeting in Fl. For 3 days. Though he says no PA at that time, I do not believe it. Then the next physical meeting was a week at end of Sept. 2001. That is when I found out and called. End of A!
So while the PA was not long term, the EA was about 6 months.
I really wondered what went through her head from just my own feelings of how I'd feel.
I would have been livid if he'd not gotten on phone and told wife he was leaving me for her.
But then, that was not his intent was it?
Even if neither were planning to divorce and just lying, it still would have been a low blow to her.
At least I think so. At least it ended it with them by my finding out and calling. I do think there were a couple of phone calls and emails afterward but more with arguments over me letting her H have all the emails they had written and informing him of their two meetings, where, when, etc.
Strange things go through ones mind as you all know.
You are right Katie, I did think she was looking to replace me. Albeit, she could not in any way. I know this, but it still hurts!
You have each given a different perspective and I appreciate your honesty and openess.
The truth is always less hurtful, I've found, than the imagination! Mine goes wild. And I see scenarios that probably never existed.
Thanks again. LouLou

LadyLou,

I've been the OW in a long-term (3 year) relationship. There never was a question as to whether he would leave his wife...he told me at the beginning that he never would, and I accepted that. I would never, under any circumstances, want him to leave his family because of me; and I regret the way I've jeopardized his marriage.

Our relationship began from friendship...and unfilled emotional needs. I was there for conversation, recreational companionship, admiration and support; which at times seemed to overshadow the physical aspect of it. My experience has proven just how important it is for partners in a marriage to abide by Dr. Harley's advice in "His Needs, Her Needs".

djmusicbox,thank you. This is another ? and not meant as an offense to you. But do you feel his wife doesn't or won't meet those conversational needs? Recreational and so forth?
Each relationship is different, but I found I'd love conversing with my H. He is the one who doesn't want to open up or just chat, but he would would OW.
Also, he enjoyed his trips to Fl, and had a good time. However, I desperately needed to go away, and would have loved going with him.
Recreation is something I enjoy of any type, but he is one who, when home, loves sitting in front of TV! You can't do much talking when TV is going all day into night.
I guess what I'm saying, perhaps the OW meets the needs because he allows her to and doesn't even try with Wife.
Do you know much about her personally? Or just what he says?
I have found many WS's do not tell the truth about their S. Because otherwise, they'd have no excuse for doing what they are doing.
Admiration? I probably have let my H feel he hung the moon!
I appreciate your input very much. you said 3 yrs. That's a long time for him to not try to work things out with his wife to get needs met at home.
The truth is, regarding sex, my husband rejected me so much I felt I had three heads!
He never wanted intimacy. Yet, he started talking with old GF he contacted through classmates.com., 6 months later flew from Ca. and she flew from LA. to meet in Fl and of course, intimacy. Now that sucks!
Because I was doing without while he wasn't. I am considered very pretty, good figure, and he never came home a day that I wasn't showered, perfumed, hair done, makeup and dressed nice. His dinner on table at exactly same time each night per his request.
The OW on the other hand was complaining about her unhappy marriage, their finacial problems and losses. Had gained over 100 lbs since he'd seen her and was incapable of intercourse due to lack of taking hormones. She's a nurse or was so should know better!
So his bubble was burst so quickly, but took two visits to see it.
I must say though,since he has blown the fog away, we're happily working on marriage and it's a lot better for me. I was so depressed due to never doing anything social or intimacy I was ready to give up. Wondering why I didnt' have the A! LOL It's just not in me to do so.
And now, sex is his idea and frequently! Wow! Yippee!
Maybe it took a bad experience for him to appreciate what he has here.
Anyhow, may I ask why you're still in this 3 yr A? since there is no future of commitment, why?
Do you not want someone who can commmit to you?
Lot of ? I know. But to understand me, I am an analyst. And I analyse everything by nature.
I want to know the ins and outs of everything around me. Not just A's, but everything!
Thanks again, God bless, LouLou

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sincere1:
<strong>My A was an EA only,and as soon as it was discovered by OM's W, everything came out in the open.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sincere1:

How did OM's W discover your EA?

What did she say to you and you to her?

Clyde

<small>[ February 01, 2003, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: ClydeA ]</small>

Hi LadyLou,

I'm happy to answer your questions and did not find anything offensive. I analyze too, and believe me, I've analyzed ALOT since I met this guy!!

I do know his wife to some degree. To be honest, she really shows no interest in meeting any of his needs, although he has done his best in meeting her needs....which seem to be mainly domestic duties and financial support.

I also know that his situation at home does not justify our relationship. Neither of us are proud of what happened. We both know and understand how very wrong we were.

At this point, we are trying to be just "friends" and nothing more. Some time ago, we had gone through a period of "no contact", as we both chose to end the relationship. It was so very hard, as I love him with all my heart, and always will. He repeatedly broke the "no contact rule", and wanted to remain friends. We'll see where that leads.

I never expected a future with him...I knew it was impossible. If things were different, he would definitely be the guy I'd spend the rest of my life with. But, he already made that choice when he married....and yes, he married for life.

Soon after I met him (and fell head over heels in love...or is it the "fog" with him), I purchased Dr. Harley's "Her Needs, His Needs" book to try to understand how or why what was happening. Although everyone's situation is different and each situation is unique to the people involved, the book taught me so very much about marriage.

I am sorry for the ugly situation you had gone through, but am happy that things are getting better for you.

I hope this explains things a bit. Thanks for giving me a chance to share my side.

DJ

Lady Lou, I don't know why most nurses are overweight? Thats a good debatable thread! Anyway, Try to take care of yourself, sometimes we get so caught up in this Horse sh*it, that it effects the health.

If my wife's EA taught me anything, it is I will take care of myself in the future. The way I look at my relationship now is different than years ago. I still love her, but she does not have the power over me anymore. I have come to the realization that If she's here fine, if she's gone, then she will suffer living with the low class she chose. You appear to have a high energy level, like me, so get yourself involved in hobbies and social gatherings, It helps blend your life better and not always analyizing the situation.

It seems us BS, have this nack for over analyzing a situation. I know i have spent weeks trying to figure her point of view, but stop myself, and say you will never figure out a fogged person.

If it helps, I think alot of people are looking for self satisfaction today, and don't care what the consiquences. I don't know about you, but I have shielded myself somewhat from the unknown future, because i have alot to offer in life.

We can't crawl under a rock and die (although we may want to at times), but need to look at all we have to offer. Any woman who does what you do would have many suiters.

I also, believe if we show our volnerablilty, too much, people will take advantage of us. How sad that is. I guess this all happens for some reason, but all i know, no matter what life throws my way i will try to work with it, and always look on the bright side. Hang in their, if we BS worry too much, we will be in the grave, and they will be free to date whoever they want.

God bless

djmusicbox, yes I have seen women who do not care at all about a relationship wiht their H's. They want only the financial support and security. I will never understand why a man stays under these circumstances! Divorce them!
One can't possibly be happy when one just takes and gives nothing back. And even looks at sex as duty!

Wokeup! Thank you and I agree. After the effect it all took on my health, unintentional anorexia, heart attack, etc. I learned a lot! Nobody is worth it!
And if we don't take care of ourselves, no one else will. There comes a time when you know who you are, and how hard you've tried. If the S can't appreciate you, then they need to go find out how bad it can be elsewhere!
As Dr.Phil says, you teach people how to treat you. And I'm learning to expect a lot more than I've had in past concerning my EN's.
It seems I was always the one meeting the whole family's needs and taking responsibility for them all. Now I expect more for me and I seem to be getting it.
We must all watch our health. Without it, life isn't worth much.
You are right about having hobbies and social life outside this turmoil. We must!
And accept that we can only do so much, then allow the other person to take some responsibility for the relationship as well. It's definitely a two way street!
And after a while, life can zip by so fast you miss it while you're waiting on someone to wake up. I definitely believe in time lines. Because none of us are getting any younger! And hey, let's don't die and give them that satisfaction. LOL
The WS has a sort of life going on while the BS is breaking their butts to not LB!
What about their LB'ing?
I wish each one here the healing they deserve.
Thanks for your support, and repliles.
God bless, LouLou

Hi LadyLou,

Your questions are good ones but since they also tied to characteristic traits your responses will vary.

ex: PBR (H's ow's my given title - LOL!) informed me that her intent was to help the WS be a better H. Even wanted me to give her credit for her 'attempts' to send him back 6 times. At least that was right around d/d. Um..... let me clarify those 6 times..... each followed with pix and cex. explicit e-mail conversations.

Chance to lie to the BS? Oh yea, under the cloak of 'telling her version of the truth'. Now this is where the BS can cleverly use the known conversations between the WS and OP along with OP and BS against each other. See from those supposed truths intermixed with cleverly placed lies (ommissions, stretches of the truth, outright lies, rewritten e-mails, outrageous voice-mail messages, claims, threats, etc.), I was able to get them to LB each other. Didn't have to lift a finger. Lifted my ebrows and said 'hmmmmm.....' a lot but not much more than that. In fact, in my case, agreeing with them and then babbling back became even easier. See I used their own words against them. Easy to do once you can spot their lies and weaknesses.

So to believe when a OW talks with you? NO
Should you expect an OW to lie for the WS? Yes.

If they don't it will be proven later. To give any OW the benefit of the doubt..... well, IMHO, not safe.

Remember your character may be under fire out there and you aren't even around to defend it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

IMHO,
L.

Orchid, you are so right. Gee, wish I'd thought of rewriting the emails. LOL I could have done, but as soon as I discoverd, I called them, raised hell, then deleted all their mail after copying it to send to her H!
I did print some out to confront WH with, but he shredded it all later. Unbeknownst to him, I do have it stored on disk at a friends for future if needed such as court battle ect. Which I really don't believe will be needed as we're doing fine now.
But had it gone on afterward, good idea to rewrite messages. LOL
I'm not saying you did, but did you? Smart of you.
Yes, we do have the edge knowing our spouses better than they do. And once you get the inside edge, you can get them to love bust each other.
Thankfully, his A ended as soon as I found out. I don't think I would make a good plan A, then B person. Not that much patience to work it alone!
Character is a big factor of course.I believe most(OP/ WS have little moral character, or values at the time if ever.
Lies come too easily to both WS and OW or OM and WW.
And of course they'll lie to protect each other. But to be put in that position intentionally by your lover? I think I'd be looking at what a wimp I had hooked up with.
I don't give credit to either, but I do believe the WS is the one who should face their S when caught and not leave it to the OP.
But, on the good side, it would show OP how little they think of them too. It's like saying to OP , "You take the flack and I'll go hide"!
Lie through your teeth to protect my a--. LOL
I just hope most would say they were appalled if put in that position. And saw the person as not worth their time anymore.
This OW took a lot of raking from me. Bad names, nastiness. I can be and was pretty bad to her. Not that I'm sorry because I feel she asked for it, deserved every word I said to her.
He was hiding on patio. If I had been her, after lying he was not there, then getting told off, I'd have been dragging his butt in to the phone. And told him handle your own mess. LOL
Thanks to all. It does help to get others perspective.
We can't all think alike and I appreciate others pov!
God bless, LouLou

Lady Lou,

I need to clarify, I did not rewrite the e-mails. H & I suspect she did. See she sent me his e-mails to her. For some 'reason' his copy vs hers had some differences. Do we call those differences 'improvised'? Can't tell. My WS is not that savy but who is to say? When confronted (see she sent them to my work - such a _ _ _ _ _). I sent a copy directly home.

Who trusted who???? Well no one can. Anyone can change anything. Although I knew I didn't change it. See displaying the truth was what I had going for me. So when he called her on it and she accused me of changing stuff, he told her that I would not do that and did not do that. Oh boy, that caused her to go into her drama act. Everything with that 'how dare you call me a liar' routine, 'don't you know I would never lie to you....etc....' YUCK!!! Well of course he knew she was a liar and that sure helped my stand. I just presented what I got showed how angry I was to get this trash at work and then give it to him to handle. He sure didn't like being put in the middle, then I reminded him that she was NOT my friend so he'd better go handle it. My take was to go to the police (I had already checked into it) and told him so.

L.

Orchid,thanks for the clarification. I was unable to show H Ow's true nature at first he was in such a foggy bottom.
But I did do research on her and her H on internet. Found so much I could show him to prove her lies. He was furious at first. Then seemed very let down. Poor baby! LOL
It has still taken him some time to realize who and what she is. I still am not sure he doesn't want to believe his fantasy about her today.
But she had filled his head with such sob stories how her H had lost all the assets they had for years and how successful they'd been and had it made. Her H even spent a year in Fed prison. She put all the blame on her H.
Well, a bit of research with the state she lives in proved she was in on all the scams. She said she was unaware of them. I was able to pull up info and show my H where she was actually the officer on corps. Her name spread all over on dozens of scam Corps they'd set up and used Other peoples monies to back them. Then fail to file annual reports, many revoked by state for other illegal actions, so forth.
She was not only aware, she was the head dude. LOL
Oh, and I think she was trying to get my H to put our retirement monies into her scams. She had mentioned how he could sneak our assets over to another state and cheat me out of anything. NOT!
He still doesn't want to believe it of her.Of course, hurts his ego to see himself so used and close to being wiped out!
He knows, he just says I (BS) don't really know her.
I guess he still thinks her H got her involved. But it's her connections being used, not H's.
Anyhow, one of my best weapons is he knows I'm a moral person and would never scam people out of their money or any asset. I am also not a chronic liar like they were. The truth is there for him to see.
Sometimes a PI can find you enough to really sour the A. Just a little background investigation and criminal history.
Thanks to all who posted here. LouLou