All,

The threads I have been participating on, I will try to get to this weekend. I am glad I have been able to help others out in what they are going through. Since I am at work, I will get right to it because I feel like I might be screwing up now (this stuff is hard!).

Anyway, last night I went to dinner at my wife's apartment. I brought flowers and the first two hours were GREAT! She had told me a week ago that we were doing this because she wanted to sit down and discuss how and when we were moving her back in, and other issues about our future (buying a new house this summer, etc). So, for the first part of the evening, I asked her what was up. She said she would talk later, but right now she just wanted to relax and us enjoy ourselves. And we did! Later on, I gave her a massage. It just seemed like everything was going incredibly well.

Eventually, she turned off the TV and we started to talk. This is where things went bad. She started to talk about the fact that she had imagined today would be the day that she walked around thinking about our future and about moving in, and then talking to me about it tonight. She said, instead, that she was scared. I asked her if she had taken care of her "situation." She said Yes, OM was now gone for good. Anyway, she went on to say that she was just scared that she would start back into this and things wouldn't be good, and she would leave again...hurting everyone.

Well, this was a minor trigger on me. But I held my ground and didn't LB (at least not yet!). I asked her why she felt that way...why she would ever consider leaving after what she has seen. And then the big trigger hit.

In the following conversation, she basically restated the past. That I "abandoned" her and left her lonely and alone. I agreed with her...to an extent. She said that the leaving and the adultery came from being so lonely, that she sought out this. She said I was running around saying she slept around, but she said that wasn't true. She said "I was done with the marriage...I didn't sleep around...I was in a relationship." She went on to say that she felt that she had done nothing wrong.

Well, after all the good work I have done, and all the things I said to others on here on what to do and not to do...I basically blew up! You know those pesky things called Love Busters? I did all of them simultaneously, as I frantically put on my shoes and headed for the door. She didn't do anything wrong? I had to get out of there fast.

As I went to leave, I started spouting things like "You know...if you believe that you did nothing wrong, then you believe that you can act like a whore in the future." And, "I don't need this. I can be in a relationship with someone else, who knows the meaning of commitment and marriage. Who knows that what you did was wrong."

I left and headed home. On the way there, she calls telling me "You know the Harley book? (She has been reading it lately...SAA) Well, why don't you go back and read the chapter on love busters?!" And then she hung up.

Well, after another phonecall from her as I was driving in which she stated that she couldn't do this arguing anymore, I turned the car around and went back. We sat and talked for another hour, with us basically shouting for half of it. She said I didn't respect her feelings. That she was telling me how she felt, and I wanted her to just feel how I wanted her to feel. I said "No, I want you to have your feelings. I just don't want to be with someone that would feel that what you did wasn't wrong. That there is no OUT in a marriage. And if you cannot see that, then I truly do not want to be married to you because I need to have a woman next to me that understands the commitment of marriage and knows there is NO reason to seek divorce, except that outlined by the Bible."

Well, in the end, things calmed down some...but she was now emotionally tired, so I left. this morning she called, at first telling me some funny stuff about some things she got in the mail. she was getting ready to head to her session with our counselor. Eventually, we sort of started talking about the mess last night. I apologized for LBing. I told her I was highly disappointed that this evening that was supposed to be the beginning of the rest of our lives, turned out so badly. She stated that she just couldn't do this arguing anymore.

I told her that we wouldn't have to…if she would just get back in the marriage…and be fully in it. I told her I acknowledge my faults of the past and what I did wrong. But I said that wasn't the point…because I will never be like that again. But I cannot be in a marriage where the opportunity to leave is there. I had grounds to leave over the past 20 months…and I didn't. she knows I will not leave if we put this back together. I have to know the same. And it ain't good to start off by saying that leaving wasn't wrong.

So, folks…my turn to ask for help. What do I do? It is the end of the month. I know she planned on moving in over the next week…to use what she would normally spend on rent to buy us a big screen TV. Now, who knows what she will do. She told the OM bye-bye this past week for good. But as you can see in our other reconciliations, she always pressed my buttons, I went off…and she ran back to OM. Was that what she was doing this time again? I mean, this time, she has kept calling me back…kept trying to stay engaged in conversation. So what gives?

I do not know how to handle her. As I said in Luki's thread, I am at a point where I will not, and cannot, accept her back under ANY terms. But how do I keep from LBing, but still get her to the point where she understands what marriage is again. When we got married, she was the one that told me that there was no such thing as divorce. Now, there is nothing "wrong" with it.

So, please chime in. We were supposed to be going to dinner as a family tonight (doubt that will happen now) and work on moving her home over the next week. Now, I don't know if she is ready to throw her hands in the air or not. I know I am close to, because I cannot be in a marriage like that…and I am not seeing how she is gonna come back into this with the right frame of mind on how marriage and commitment work.

It looks like things are stalled unless something opens up.

In His arms.

<small>[ March 26, 2003, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Well My Man...

I would back way the heck off now. You are right. As much as you love your wife, you don't have to live in a prision of knowing your wife thinks its ok to f!@# other men while still married to you. Its exactly how my WW feels. And as much as I love her, I am not going to put up with that. She will have to hit rock bottom before she realizes that adultery isn't too cool.

What she is basically telling you is..."My Mortar if we get back together I don't know if I will be able to control myself if another attactive person comes along." Don't put up with it. Just don't. Your threads have been great! Go back to "reconsilliation is this way or the highway."

You said in your thread "What if a truly repentant wife shows up...Well a "truly repentant wife" didn't show up to dinner with you.

Don't put up with that anymore. Its so scary how WW's act. Mine actually told me that "I was controlling and wanted a robot" not even one second after I said a condition for reconsilliation is "No more men"

Don't stand for that, I know its easy for me to say but go back to the guy you were in your threads. I found so much hope in them.

Hi MM,

Sounds like your W is "testing" you a bit...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Anyway, she went on to say that she was just scared that she would start back into this and things wouldn't be good, and she would leave again...hurting everyone.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Remember, BOTH of you have been wounded in this battle... You by her actions, and her by your actions. It sounds like she's opening up a bit and trying to tell you what hurt her...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She said "I was done with the marriage...I didn't sleep around...I was in a relationship." She went on to say that she felt that she had done nothing wrong.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK... so she says that she feels like she did nothing wrong... it hurts. BUT... do you want to argue over this fact, or start rebuilding your M? Give her some time to sort through her feelings... It took my FWW a long, long time to really understand the pain that she put us through.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...I am at a point where I will not, and cannot, accept her back under ANY terms. But how do I keep from LBing, but still get her to the point where she understands what marriage is again. When we got married, she was the one that told me that there was no such thing as divorce. Now, there is nothing "wrong" with it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM, her comments still sound a bit "foggy" to me... treat them as such and continue to focus on rebuilding your M. She will eventually "get it". She wants to come back... don't make her jump through a bunch of little hoops in order for her to do so. I understand your desire to have her "understand" that what she did was wrong, but she's going to have to come to that conclusion on her own... any attempt to educate her will be a big LB.

Hang in there! You're doing great!

Semper Fi,
RIF90

MM,

You said one thing you really need to understand. You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But how do I keep from LBing, but still get her to the point where she understands what marriage is again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You don't get her to the point. That is the point. She has to walk through the door on her own. Until she does, then she hasn't come through the door. Sounds like Yogi Berra giving marriage advice doesn't it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Well, the point is you are not in control of her, she is.

IF she wants to be back with you SHE must come home and make it right. Not you, not you convincing her, not you even emphasizing with her. This has to been within her.

You shouldn't of LB'd, but I understand your frustration. I asked you on your other post if the custody hearing took place, if the divorce was still in place, did the church hearing take place? I think you need to keep going steady as you go.

MM, you cannot count on your W for anything right now, and maybe never. Neither can your children. Only if she changes and sees things differently can your or your children's view change. IT IS UP TO HER.

So let it be. Lead your life, talk with her, enjoy dinner together, but NO EXPECTATIONS. They will lead to resentment and that will kill your marriage. Right now she is just a useless appendage in your life. She must decide if that is going to change OR you will be left with the decision to remove the appendage. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Sorry that is the way I see it. Oh! by the way, it isn't hard to imagine that she is afraid to move back. Basically, she hasn't really lived with you in almost two years. She hasn't really spent much time around the kids in almost a year (I do recall that she shipped them off so that she could have more time.) So yes THIS IS A BIG STEP FOR HER.

Let her make the step.

God Bless,

JL

Mortarman,
I'm not in your shoes yet, so I can't say from experience, only speculation. Maybe she's just getting nervous, maybe that was her way of testing you, maybe she has PMS, who knows. The fact that she called you and quoted the book is a good thing (I think?), and that she didn't hold a grudge when she called the next morning.

Easier said than done, I know, but just try to relax and not PRESSURE her. She was the one that initiated the moving back in right? She was the one that asked you to dinner? Then let her move at her own pace. I'm not telling you anything you don't know, I just went back and read some of your posts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Have patience, pray and ask that His will be done, and it will.

All that responded...thanks. The 2x4 upside the head is actually a good thing from time-to-time. All of you basically said the same thing. And as I went back and read my recent posts, especially to Marathonman, I realized that you are right.

That being said...what do I do? Sure, sit here in Plan A and wait for HER to get her act straight (good point, JL). But what if she wants to come home, and move forward with this kind of attitude? I mean, I would have to drop some serious boundaries in order to let that happen.

The point to my question is that I have put the line in the sand back in december. she was the one that approached me about reconciliation. She has gotten rid of OM, and is seeking counseling, which was my two pre-requisites for her coming home. She has met those. But How can I move forward and allow her to start back in on this marriage knowing she believes this? Sure, I am hoping this is still some fog-grog left over. Added to that, she did say last night that she is in the withdrawal phase concerning the OM (as I said, she has been readin SAA). But, what if she doesnt come around to a proper view of marriage? Then, she will be back in the house...the kids will have started getting back into a family again...and then it will be Dad ending things.

So, I am not sure how to walk this tightrope. I want to be patient and let her figure this out. Withdrawal, fear, not being with me for almost two years, etc...all ofthese are good points. And I have made it this far being patient, and can wait awhile longer. But I did say that with OM gone and counseling that she could come home. Now, how can I go back on that? And if I dont, how can I live in a marriage where she believes she did nothing wrong?

I His arms.

MM,

You could be sly and tricky here OR you could do the old frontal assault. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

By frontal assault I mean being radically honest with her. I guess I would address this by making the following points and offerings.

1. You don't have to come home. Please do so when you are ready.

2. I will do my best to wait, but I guarentee nothing.

3. I will do my very best to be a good husband to you IF you decide to come home, but I will need your help not your fears to do this.

4. I understand that you are afraid of hurting people by leaving again. I am willing and the children seem to be willing to take the risk. I will discuss this with the children. However, just because we are willing to take the risk doesn't relieve you of giving us your best effort.

MM, you still haven't answered my questions about the custody hearing. That is very important information for us to have with regard to offering you advice. But, my feeling is that IF she comes home and actually integrates herself into your and your children's lives again, that her view just might change. The reality is that these views do seem to change to meet the NEEDS of the person playing the games. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> You cannot control that either.

I do know that you really are at little emotional risk right now, because you KNOW you can survive without her. Unlike her, you won't come back begging for another chance. I also am not sure that OM is completely out of the picture but I am sure some withdrawal is taking place.

Have you noticed that she keeps saying I cannot stand the argueing? Pay attention to this. Assure her that you won't argue with her again, EVER. You will simply act on whatever you feel based on her actions and statements. Want an example?

When she voiced her justifications for the affair (very common just starting recovery by the way), you should have simply accepted them as her feelings and views. They were. You also know that these feelings change. If you felt that you really didn't want to be with her after hearing this, YOU should have simply gotten up and left. You should have not argued or commented on her views, they were hers and frankly she didn't ask you for yours.

Do you see what I mean? You cannot change her feelings, you can simply accept them and decide how YOU will react to them. Don't try and change her mind, correct her, or persuade her that she is wrong. If she felt she was wrong she would have changed them. No one willingly stays or is wrong. That doesn't mean they aren't, but that they don't recognize it.

She will change if she doesn't get the desired results. But, you argueing or even commenting on her feelings with her express request to do so is a waste of your time, and very damaging to both of you. If on the other hand your reaction (leaving) is not what she wants she might ASK you to comment on how you see things.

Right now she knows she has screwed up big time. She doesn't want to face it. She doesn't want to admit that for two years, you, and actually more importantly the children have been on the back burner while she did what she pleased: school, party, and have an affair.

But, she did those things and she will have to face them. She is more likely to when she feels safe, either at home with you or even in her own apartment.

So talk to her, but let her decide when or what. You have another decision to make. And it will be made for you. How long to you want to keep trying with little encouragement? You will decide this at sometime and then act on it.

So she has as much time as she wants. You have as much time as you want. And when either of you doesn't want any more time, you will act. It just may not be in a situation that she or you like. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But what if she wants to come home, and move forward with this kind of attitude? I mean, I would have to drop some serious boundaries in order to let that happen.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok... I must have missed something in your first post... I understood your W's comments to mean that she was worried that things might go back to the way they were... NOT that she wanted to keep the option of starting another A "if things didn't work out".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She has gotten rid of OM, and is seeking counseling, which was my two pre-requisites for her coming home. She has met those. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Were these the only boundaries or conditins that you asked of her?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But How can I move forward and allow her to start back in on this marriage knowing she believes this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM, how do you KNOW that she believes this... on this thread alone, there were several different interpretations of what we all thought your W meant... I still think that she is testing you and that she may still be a bit foggy... but I don't really believe that she is asking you for an "out" to start another A if things don't work out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, how can I go back on that? And if I dont, how can I live in a marriage where she believes she did nothing wrong?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So don't go back on your two conditions... she's met them, let her come home... Start rebuilding your M and I think that you'll find that your W will eventually come to see just how much damage she's inflicted on the both of you.

Semper Fi,
RIF90

MM, I got six long pages of posts for you to read, from Page 283 to page 289. Trust me, there IS a point. I think you will see it as you read. Pay attention to how expectations affect things, and how words mean different things to different people, and how far apart one's interpretation of someone's words can be from what they wanted to communicate. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She said I was running around saying she slept around, but she said that wasn't true. She said "I was done with the marriage...I didn't sleep around...I was in a relationship." She went on to say that she felt that she had done nothing wrong. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She was giving you important information in that sentence, and you totally missed a lot of it. Yes, the part you blew up about was in there - I think. I'm actually not sure though, despite her not being remorseful. You did not explore what she said enough to be sure either, and you did not make it safe for her to be honest. It may well be that you are right, and it may well be that she is not at a point where you can feel safe if she comes home. But, if you had respectfully explored things and determined that you did not feel safe, you could have informed her of that, and that you were very disappointed. As it is, you gave her more reason to feel afraid of going home. And that is a MAJOR issue for her, as she told you to start out. I'm not sure her attitude is not a product of her fear more than her lack of committment - but YOU DON'T KNOW, EITHER.

I also want to say that it is not necessarily unsafe to continue in a marriage with an unrepentent spouse (though I admit I would have trouble with it). She said that she felt the relationship was over. If you are both willing to work on things, she will never find herself in that situation again, so you will be safe. Is this the kind of committment God requires? No. As far as I can tell, your wife is not a believer - and you know what the Bible says about unbelieving spouses, don't you? Do not divorce if they are willing to remain married to you. Who knows if by your witness they might be saved? You take care of MM. Let God take care of her.

About her calling you and hitting you with the SAA stuff. This could be great: an indication of her committment. It could be awful: an indication of her trying to control you. It could be both at the same time. You need to figure it out. The only way to do that is to really get inside her head (see the recommended posts for more info on that). Plan A is over. You need to let her inside your head, too. Let her know how afraid that statement made you feel. It may be for the best that she not move back, yet. You two don't seem to be ready. The downside of both Plans A and B is that you don't learn what a sustainable relationship is like. Plan A is not sustainable, Plan B is about independance, not interdependance. Marriage is different than either one, but it takes time to learn how, and Plan A and Plan B do not get you there. You BOTH still have a lot to learn. You might not want to hear this, but recovery is when the hard part begins. You stopped LB'ing by detaching and seperating. Now you need to learn how to stop LB'ing when you are not seperated.

Anger (that comes out when you LB) usually has it's roots in one of three places: fear, pain and frustration. Her statement made you feel all three, I imagine. But instead of saying something like "W, that statement makes me afraid that if you come home you will leave again, and I cannot subject myself and the kids to that kind of pain, again. I am also really frustrated, because I thought you were ready to make a committment, and now it sounds to me like you are not." , you blew up. Understandable, but not safe for her, and a way to avoid the real issues, for you.

One more thing. When your communication improves, your relationship frequently seems to get worse, at first. Or actually DOES get worse, at first. So, don't give up over this set-back. There are real issues here that need to be addressed on both sides, but the race is not over.

Hi MM,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">. You don't have to come home. Please do so when you are ready.

2. I will do my best to wait, but I guarentee nothing.

3. I will do my very best to be a good husband to you IF you decide to come home, but I will need your help not your fears to do this.

4. I understand that you are afraid of hurting people by leaving again. I am willing and the children seem to be willing to take the risk. I will discuss this with the children. However, just because we are willing to take the risk doesn't relieve you of giving us your best effort.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">these are good. I like them.

I hear alot of fear from both you and your wife. She was being honest with you that she was afraid. Afraid that the old feelings about being alone and abandoned will come back. To me, that was a good thing, she is trying to trust you to be honest about her fears. Unfortunately it triggered your fears.

Are you still military, right? What is the chances of you being sent out? Aren't you planning on retiring soon or getting out soon? Can the military prevent that?

You both have alot of hurdles of the past to get over. It takes time to overcome them. Facing the fears of them, addressing them, and getting past them. Some each of you will have to do alone, and some you can do together (if you both want to).

I know she is in counsleing, are the two of you in MC? Are you both willing?

I know you have talked to the Harleys in the past, and so has she. At the time, she was not ready. What about now?

She kept calling, to me that is a good sign that she still wanted it to work. Maybe I am wrong, but, if she did not love you, she would not care if she hurt you in the future. I hope she has not changed her mind in the light of day.

There will be rough times ahead, the whole trip to recovery will not be all easy going. You both will have to face the fears and pain of the past. Once you get past that, work on it, you will probably have a better M than you had before. Anything worth having does not come easy.

OK...I am torn.

On the one hand you are totally correct. You are technically not wrong in describing her behavior as that in which a whore would engage. AAAHHH those techincalities.

It is another thing to brand the mother of your chldren with a scarlet letter for all the world to see.

Is her behavior wrong, immoral, unjust? YES!!

Her behavior speaks for itself...it does not need to be elaborated on by you.

So here is my quandry...was she initially upset because your view of her has dropped so low that you consider her a whore?...at some level you do and she knows it. Is she defending her behavior because she doesn't feel you understand what brought her so low...because I believe in her mind she thinks that if she is a whore then youre the SOB that drove her to it.

It has been clear that I am no fan of your wife's behavior but since none of us were there I wonder: did she begin to defend her "relationship" as a protective behavior...to try to save any self respect she might have left?
Or do you think she truly thought you would accept this rationale?

Not to justify her actions at all...I think she wanted to test the waters with you.

She does not see herself as a whore because plainly whores work for a trade-off. She was not doing that. In her mind she was a lost unloved waif, alone and abandoned...not some whore who couldn't keep her skirt down. OK...blah, blah, fog talk. I know...but you do need to acknowledge that although the physcial behavior is the same...the mental baggage is not.

One thing is clear...she cannot view herself as a whore or live with you viewing her that way and continue as your wife...really who could? That being said...she must get to the point of acknowledging the err of her ways as an adult without fear of punishment or name calling.

I know she is your wife and she has betrayed you but also she is the mother of your children. The word whore should not equate with her from you for their sakes...to their mother or anyone else. Her behavior speaks for itself...your children do not need there father informing others that there mother is "sleeping around".

If you need to call her a whore come here....write it a million times...sing it in the shower...otherwise...SHUT UP.

Can I ask you prior to all this...did you call her other names...berate her in other ways? I just wonder because it would ring even truer her desire to test you...to see if any of your old tendancies still exist.

OK very long...bottom line: You need to understand that she did not risk all for a few thrills...as would a common whore. She was a wife and a mother who got sad and depressed so she made the worst choices of her life...these choices involved adultery and abandonement...and she is wrong. However just because she is 100% WRONG-and she is...that does not make you right...

Totally off the subject. I hope you are still State-side...God Bless all our Armed Forces...where ever they may be.

God Bless America

continuing prayers

ayslyne

MortarMan, I too echo the following:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just Learning:

"1. You don't have to come home. Please do so when you are ready.

2. I will do my best to wait, but I guarentee nothing.

3. I will do my very best to be a good husband to you IF you decide to come home, but I will need your help not your fears to do this.

4. I understand that you are afraid of hurting people by leaving again. I am willing and the children seem to be willing to take the risk. I will discuss this with the children. However, just because we are willing to take the risk doesn't relieve you of giving us your best effort." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It may be wise that you convey those words to your W the next time you get a chance to talk to her.

<small>[ March 21, 2003, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: 2MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

How about adding: "Thank you for beng honest with me about your fears. I am afraid too."?

I'm really not at liberty to give you advise as you are the ring the leader in keeping me from coming apart at the seams. The four points that have been echoed above are good..she has to come back on her on time..and the point about about her maybe leaving again.. those must be some awesome kids and even you..the thing about caliing her a whore.. that a no! NO!. I LBED big time last night and called Mrs. MM a whore.. and if she really hadn't have sex with the OM. it nmust have really hurt..have to be the best MM..I am praying for you my friend... and I can only hope for the best.. it has been a very long road for you.. keep your chin up and pray that he will keep you in his arms and have his will be done..

Mortarman-
First, let me say how sorry I am for you that things have taken a downturn with your W. I know you had some high hopes for progress in your reconciliation and you must be frustrated now. Just remember "2 steps forward, 1 step back", is still progress.

I've been lurking on the "Recovery" forum lately, even though I'm nowhere near recovery in my own M. The reason I've been reading the threads over there is that I know IF we ever get a chance at recovery, I have some major issues to deal with regarding forgiveness and "right vs. wrong", and I want to explore these issues now, to learn as much as I can.

I'm going out on a limb here, but something about the tone of your posts speaks to me. I sense that you are a man for whom the words "honesty, integrity, faithfulness" are more than mere words. You live by those words, every day, in every situation of your life. I feel the same way, although I am human and make mistakes. I am married to a man who has demonstrated over the years, in many ways, that those words mean less to him than they do to me. For example, he has brought stuff home from work, a chair here, a tool there, and it doesn't bother him. They "owe" it to him, or they " won't miss it". My WH has also had 2 A's prior to this one, and after that D-Day he begged me not to leave, the kids were young, and I stayed. We never dealt with the A's very well (no MB back then). For the past 12 years I have asked him, periodically, "how did you get from 'I know it's wrong' to 'but I'm going to do it anyway"? I never got the answer I was looking for, so the question kept coming up. What I was looking for was "I had the A's because I'm a sorry SOB with questionable morals and I need a complete overhaul in my thinking, starting now". What I got was " I take responsibility for my actions BUT you drove me to it by being inacessible". The BUT is the sticking point. To me, there is no BUT, my moral code will not allow me to have an A. I'm sure, I've been tested, I ran away from a potential A 20 years ago. Bottom line, I could not live with myself if I had an A.

So H and I never healed. I kept the pain and anger inside me for all those years. It came out every once in awhile. His "questionable morals" never improved, he never said, "no matter what, I can control myself", and meant it. He had another A, and has been living with OW since 12/31/02. I wanted a man who was as committed to living "right" as I was no matter what. I sense that you want the same kind of wife. Now, finally, I'll come to my point. (Jeez, finally, I wish I was a better writer!).

Over on the Recovery forum, one quote that keeps replaying in my mind is "do you want 'fair' or do you want a marriage"? Does this make any sense to you, MM? I'm struggling with it, but I know it's the only way to go to recover the M. I personally don't know what I want at this point, but maybe this concept will help you decide what you can live with in your situation. I know you drew your lines in the sand, and technically, your W did what you asked. What you didn't ask her for, but what you seem to want, is a change of her views to be the same as yours, and now you're not so sure you can take her back "as is". I wish I could tell you that she will come around to your way of thinking, to stay committed no matter what, but of course no one can tell you that. The other posters on this thread have said you need to let her do her own thinking, come to her own conclusions regarding the A and the repercussions of it. I agree. Her feelings are her own, don't discount them. And they may change, as she acknowledges more of the reality you and your children have been living. I guess your compassion toward her is what's needed if you want your M back.

If you haven't been reading over at Recovery, I suggest you check it out. (Just don't leave us without you in GQII, though, we'd miss you!)

Thinking of you.
Lablady

MortarMan,

I don't pretend to know your wife or think like her, so I don't know what is going on in her head, but IMHO, she is saying EXACTLY what she is thinking. She is scared. She is being radically honest with you and that is what you want isn't it? Would you rather her NOT say these things to you and come back when she is really feeling this way? Then, if it doesn't work out, you will be blindsided (again).

Despite all this fog talk, the WS is in touch with their feelings better than ya'll think. She knows if things go back to the way they were pre-affair, then she will probably be right back in the same place. She HAS seen the light and doesn't want to go there again. She is scared about hurting you, the kids and herself again. She should be. Mortarman - don't you see - this is EXACTLY the same fear you have. You know how hard it is to carry that burden. She is carrying it now too.

Like I said, this is my interpretation of what your wife MAY be thinking, but I should tell you that I am a WS in almost this exact frame of mind. Now we have not gone through near the troubles you and Mrs. MM have experienced, but I have those fears nontheless. We are currently separated, and I know my wife would like to get back together now, but I don't want to until I can work through some issues of my own. I tried it once when I was unsure and it caused more pain than anything else. I may try it again, but for now, I would just like some time to reconnect with my wife before we "recommit".

You have received some fantastic advice on this thread. JL's 4 points are excellent and have given me some things to ponder also, but just remember to give her time to consider it. I know all BS's expect the "fog" to just lift and everything is hunky-dorey again, but it is just not that simple.

MM - keep the lines of communication constantly open and discuss both of your feelings with radical honesty. Many of the things you will discuss will hurt each of you very much. But if you can get through that hurt without LB'ing, then it will make your spouse see that perhaps there could be a better life at home.

Just my 2 cents. Best of luck to you.

Mortarman:

Here's another view. Might be wrong. Might have merit.

"That being said...what do I do? Sure, sit here in Plan A and wait for HER to get her act straight (good point, JL). But what if she wants to come home, and move forward with this kind of attitude? I mean, I would have to drop some serious boundaries in order to let that happen."

There are a few of us on here that have NOT dropped any serious boundaries (or any humorous ones either) and have either let our WSs come home or not insisted that they leave (or let them suggest it). Are we losers? No. Do we have the answers to all our problems? No. We must be doing something right, though, because progress continues. My W is happier all the time with me, and we're still in a truly messy situation with rebuilding our house. Is she happy because I'm "great?" Well, no. I am making progress internally, though. So is she. Does she still have attitudes like your W does? Yep, no doubt about that. But if you communicate, if you can SEE her react to daily life, not imagine what she's doing or thinking in your absense, maybe you'll be better able to see her evolve too.

Look, you and she are both reading Harley books. Talk about them! Use the terms. Use POJA and RH. Love her as she is, and watch her grow back to your M.

Plan B and stuff like it are intended to protect the BS from further hurt by the WS. Is she hurting you to the extent that you feel you need to go back to plan B? Or can you communicate well enough that you can show a little compassion for each others' pain while you grow and learn. ...and rebuild your M.

Remember, most therapists say it takes 2 to 5 years to recover from infidelity. And they aren't referring to just the BS, either. Like you probably, I groan when I think I probably have 1-4 more years of this to go, but what else am I going to do?

What are YOU going to do?
-Qfwfq

Mortarman-

This is actually a VERY realistic attitude that your formerly WS is showing. Remember, she ran from fear.....yes you have changed, but she has not REALLY been paying attention.

She has VALID fears....now is not the time to be "right" it is time to be patient and a freind....being right will not solve the problems...just put up the walls
I REALLY think at this point, it's time to talk to Harley. He would suggest a dating period so that you both can test the waters. There are reasons for this.

Be patient....Be honest...Be humble. Take in the data....disregard the emotional reactions...

You both are triggering...and she is only NOW going to start withdrawl. A LOT to deal with when there is nothing guranteed for either of you.

You asked her why she felt fearful of falling back into another A. THen you became ANGRY andjudged her based on what you feared. look at what she has been saying all along....Is this consistent with her? She openly stated that she neede to understand why and that she wanted to fo to IC to figure it out. She is telling you the same thing NOW. she's not saying it will happen, she is saying that she is terrified of it happening and that she doesn't want that.

Mortarman, it is both of your responsibilities to figure out thow to A proof your marriage. Stop reacting to triggers and simply start planning and befriending your wife.

I have much more to say, but little time.

Let your emotions rule and thten GO BACK AND READ YOUR POSTS! Think from Mrs. M's perspective instead of Mr. M's and then readress your fears...

Hugs. You're doing good.

One more thing Mortarman - from my perspective, the work you are doing on you needs to include some additional anger management work. I kow you are angry. But, your behavior was atrocious, IMO. Remember: "Be angry and sin not". You need to replace the habits you have when you get angry with new ones. It's not like Mrs. MM (current or future) will never do anything to make you angry. You have got to figure out a way to deal with you anger that does not involve abuse. For me, the introspection thing works, for the most part. Lots of people find they have to walk away and come back to a dis-agreement later. I am not an expert on this, so I am not sure what might work for you. You might want to see an expert for some help.

Morterman

I am kind of in the same boat you are. I am in the Army (HOOAH) stationed overseas and my family is back state side. I was wondering if you could check out my post and see if you can help me out any way doing this long distance.

Thanks and you are a insperation to us all.

HnG